189 replies to this topic

[djparky]

Indy Car is going hybrid from 2022....

[ezequiel]

We hybrid 2022 https://www.motorspo...ormula/4504828/

[red stick]

We hybrid 2022 https://www.motorspo...ormula/4504828/

 

 

The NTT IndyCar Series has delayed its next engine formula by a year in order to integrate a single-source hybrid system, with the intention that the units will improve competition and also attract more OEMs to compete with Honda and Chevrolet.

 

Intention?  Sounds like "hope."

 

This has been Marshall Pruett's soapbox item for awhile now, that there was probably no hope of attracting other manufacturers unless there was an advance in the technology to some form, however limited, of auxilary electrical power.  Good for IndyCar!

[red stick]

Indy Car is going hybrid from 2022....

 

The inexorable wheel of progress turns slowly, but it turns . . .

 

 

At present, the KERS units are expected to be positioned within the driveline to give IndyCar the newfound ability to use each system as an on-board starter.

 

Not only would IndyCar drivers be able to start their cars and pull away from pit lane, but in the event of a spin or stall, they would have the ability to start their cars from the cockpit and continue without the need for IndyCar’s race director to call for a yellow or red flag and dispatch the AMR Safety Team to restart the vehicle.

https://racer.com/20...ntent=home-hero

Edited by red stick, 01 August 2019 - 16:14.

[paulb]

Intention? Sounds like "hope."

This has been Marshall Pruett's soapbox item for awhile now, that there was probably no hope of attracting other manufacturers unless there was an advance in the technology to some form, however limited, of auxilary electrical power. Good for IndyCar!

Technology advance provided as an off-the-self item. I do not see the challenge for a new engine manufacturer. Oh wait, there is software and engine management.

And, if the sound of an Indycar becomes more like that of an F1 car, for me, that would be a very disappointing development. First halo, then hybrid, . I relly don't want Indycar to become American F1.

No, I do not extrapolate much.

Edited by paulb, 01 August 2019 - 22:27.

[bike13]

Intention?  Sounds like "hope."

 

This has been Marshall Pruett's soapbox item for awhile now, that there was probably no hope of attracting other manufacturers unless there was an advance in the technology to some form, however limited, of auxilary electrical power.  Good for IndyCar!

 

After seeing the television numbers for Mid-Ohio (on a network but with similar numbers of F1 and drag racing which were on cable), "hope" is the continual need of Indycar.  The infinitesimal increases that Miles has continually bragged about for the last two years do not justify hope.  Then you see a drop for this year's Mid-Ohio and I will anxiously await the spin.  Indycar needs more than "hope".  

[red stick]

Honda was reportedly more enthusiastic about hybridization than Chevy.  As to whether this actually attracts new manufacturers, it might be safer to say that standing pat on ICEs was just not an inducement to anybody.

[Kalmake]

Not sure what they are trying to say with "positioned within the driveline". Maybe it's separate from the ICE block and can be removed for oval races where it's useless.

[Vielleicht]

I have been reasoanbly skeptical if IndyCar being able to maintain manufacturer involvement in sticking with pure ICE let alone expand it.

 

A standard bolt on kit would be fine. Keeps costs down and the control software is more imortant than it first sounds.

 

And coinciding intoductions with a next-gen 2022 chassis is just common sense.

[MikeV1987]

Great, another Hybrid series. Because it's been going so well in LMP1 and F1.

[Vielleicht]

Great, another Hybrid series. Because it's been going so well in LMP1 and F1.

Very different though.

 

What IndyCar are planning to introduce is basically like the old pre-2014 KERS. Recover some energy under braking and use it as Push-to-Pass kind of deal.

 

It will be fine.

[maximilian]

Somebody start a 2022 car & engine thread ASAP.  If F1 can have one, so can we! 

[sblick]

They better be introducing a new manufacturer.  It is for naught if not, I think.  Maybe a manufacturer wouldn't want to do it but why can't we just have a normal engine?    

It would be fun to have an energy equivalency formula.  Run any gas, diesel, hydrogen, hybrid, or electric car you want to it just can't use more than xxx Joules.  Wouldn't that be expensive 

[Risil]

What kind of hybrid are they going to use at Indy? Not a lot of braking energy to recover there.

[MikeV1987]

Very different though.

 

What IndyCar are planning to introduce is basically like the old pre-2014 KERS. Recover some energy under braking and use it as Push-to-Pass kind of deal.

 

It will be fine.

Then it just seems like more of a gimmick than anything imo. I really don't see much of a point in doing this other than trying to appease to people who don't even care about racing anyway.

[red stick]

Details of decision.

 

https://racer.com/20...ntent=home-hero

[maximilian]

Seriously, can a mod please create a new thread for this, and move the discussion over?  I think it's a more than worthy topic on its own, and  has nothing to do with the 2019 NTT Indycar Series Season 

[Vielleicht]

Details of decision.

https://racer.com/20...ntent=home-hero

Although I disagree with Marshall Pruett intensely about his views on Formula E, he is a fantastic journalist and this is quite simply an excellent write up.

[jonpollak]

Doesn’t seem too bad.. the cars will still sound fine.
On board starter is a plus.. less long yellows.
Let’s wait and see ‘till the we crucify them for this.
Jp

[Vielleicht]

What kind of hybrid are they going to use at Indy? Not a lot of braking energy to recover there.

Slowing from 230mph down to the pit speed limiter on Regen might whack in enough to do the length of pit road on electric and get you moving again before the engine re-fires at exit?

If so I can see them doing that.

[jonpollak]

Jay Frye is a genius.
We’re lucky to have him.
Jp

[Risil]

Seriously, can a mod please create a new thread for this, and move the discussion over?  I think it's a more than worthy topic on its own, and  has nothing to do with the 2019 NTT Indycar Series Season 

 

Done!

[ANF]

Details of decision.
 
https://racer.com/20...ntent=home-hero

"Even NASCAR, the gold standard for ancient technology, is discussing the need to go hybrid in order to keep its manufacturers under contract."

[Risil]

For some reason I thought of UFOs hidden in secret Mayan pyramids there.

[Vielleicht]

Also the drivers are all very happy at the thought of 900hp at their disposal...

[jonpollak]

Indycar rolls with the changes better than most.
Jp

[Ben1445]

Details of decision.
 
https://racer.com/20...ntent=home-hero

 

Pruett:
"Why is IndyCar going hybrid? Business. It’s all about business."
[...]
"Simply put, once IMSA declared its intent for hybrid prototypes, the room filled with major auto brands."
[...]
"a fairly consistent message throughout the industry was delivered: If you want us to fund a sizable new racing program, it needs to include some form of hybrid powertrain. No hybrid, no money.

(emphasis added)

He's got that spot on. If you still don't understand why electrification is slowly but surely creeping though all of motorsport right now (IMSA, WRC, BTCC, IndyCar, etc.) then read the full article. Pruett is a through and though purist, he doesn't like the electric stuff yet even he can see why this is happening and has the talent to put it into a coherent set of words. 

[OvDrone]

For some reason I thought of UFOs hidden in secret Mayan pyramids there.

 

For that one most commune with Ancient Sumerian pre-cosmic entity Toh'nee Kahnaan.

 

Or try to eavesdrop on Will Power's fever-dreams he has in between two consecutive races where he DNFs.

[BobbyRicky]

Then it just seems like more of a gimmick than anything imo. I really don't see much of a point in doing this other than trying to appease to people who don't even care about racing anyway.

 

Most people dont care about racing, so nothing wrong with that approach.

[William Hunt]

hybrid or not: IndyCar would / could benefit from an extra engine manufacturer with just 2 in right now, a third one would be nice, e.g. Toyota, Ford or Fiat Chrysler

 

Also: I'm not a huge fan of the spec chassis, is there any chance that it will be possible again for teams, like Penske, to manufacture their own chassis again or new manufacturers to come in?

[teejay]

Get busy living or get busy dying - Shawshank Redemption. 

 

But for real, the times are changing and you have to be open to change. 

[eibyyz]

Also the drivers are all very happy at the thought of 900hp at their disposal...

 

All but 40-50 BHP courtesy of the bigger "ICE".   I want A New Track Record™ as much as the same schmuck, but...

[loki]

What kind of hybrid are they going to use at Indy? Not a lot of braking energy to recover there.

When they brake to avoid Sato's spin they'll be able to harvest energy...

[loki]

hybrid or not: IndyCar would / could benefit from an extra engine manufacturer with just 2 in right now, a third one would be nice, e.g. Toyota, Ford or Fiat Chrysler

 

Also: I'm not a huge fan of the spec chassis, is there any chance that it will be possible again for teams, like Penske, to manufacture their own chassis again or new manufacturers to come in?

 

Because that model worked so well in the past?  

 

Not going to happen.  The series is about racing and the personalities and not a design competition.

 

[ArrowsLivery]

Pathetic. Indycar have made disasterous decisions one after the other for a few years now. Another series goes to the trash heap, oh well. This really is indefensible.

[maximilian]

Thanks for splitting this thread!

 

I think anybody who calls this disastrous isn't paying attention to whatever is really being done:

 

- engine sound remains, in fact the engines become larger and more powerful

- hybrid systems are cheap and standard, so there is no spending war between manufacturers

 

This is exactly what I was proposing a while ago.  Manufacturers just wanna check the "hybrid" mark, and don't care if they build it themselves.  As long as they can say "hey look, we are racing hybrids" their marketing objectives are met, and it makes the series instantly more attractive to additional engine makers, while not losing anything on the racing and coolness factor.  These won't be sissy engines.

[prommer]

Speaking of the mythical third OEM, was there ever any behind-the-scenes article written about Porsche leaving Indycar at the altar back in May? It was such a well-kept secret that the first I heard about it was the day that it was reported to fall apart. 

 

EDIT: Should've known there was a Pruitt article on the subject.  Looks to me like the delay as well as the hybridization could be a bone thrown out to Porsche to reconsider their decision...

 

https://racer.com/20...dycar-interest/

 

"With electrification at the core of Porsche’s current and future racing strategies, its need for a hybrid-electric solution to be included in IndyCar’s next-generation powertrain rules, and the present lack of options in that regard with IndyCar’s 2021-2016 regulations, could have been a factor in its decision to remain focused on Formula E."

Edited by prommer, 02 August 2019 - 05:21.

[Henri Greuter]

hybrid or not: IndyCar would / could benefit from an extra engine manufacturer with just 2 in right now, a third one would be nice, e.g. Toyota, Ford or Fiat Chrysler
 
Also: I'm not a huge fan of the spec chassis, is there any chance that it will be possible again for teams, like Penske, to manufacture their own chassis again or new manufacturers to come in?

We have F1 for a mandatory series with chassis freedom etc. And look what's happening over there if it comes to having a field of about equal strength.....

[Wuzak]

And, if the sound of an Indycar becomes more like that of an F1 car, for me, that would be a very disappointing development. First halo, then hybrid, . I relly don't want Indycar to become American F1.

 

Why would the engine sound change?

[Wuzak]

What kind of hybrid are they going to use at Indy? Not a lot of braking energy to recover there.

 

It would be quite possible, if the engines are sufficiently powerful enough or the grip is not enough (lower downforce, worn tyres), that the cars are not able to run flat out through the turns and will be able to recover energy by lifting for the corner, the electric motor recovering energy instead of engine braking.

[HistoryFan]

I think a hybrid engine is absolutely necessary to attract a third manufacture – and that's necessary for the long term health of IndyCar.

 

But if they fail to get a third one, then the costs of hybrid engines could be a big problem for IndyCar...

[Imperial]

IndyCat prepares for 2022...

[Henri Greuter]

To some extend I think this to be a genial plan if it comes to power control.

At the superspeedway the power output is reduced nowadays to prevent 250+ laps, hybrid technology can't work very well on an oval but it does in streets and on roadtracks. Exactly where they want the more power, they get it!

[RA2]

So the hybrid system will be removed for the speedway races?

[PayasYouRace]

Pathetic. Indycar have made disasterous decisions one after the other for a few years now. Another series goes to the trash heap, oh well. This really is indefensible.

 

The series has been steadily growing and has been tremendously exciting.

[FPV GTHO]

If they follow NASCAR'S lead, I'd imagine they simply won't run the hybrid unit on the ovals.

[phrank]

Useless, they should stay ICE or go electric.. hybrid already is irrelevant technique

[SenorSjon]

IndyCat prepares for 2022...

It needs ugly sunglasses as halo.

[Wuzak]

To some extend I think this to be a genial plan if it comes to power control.

At the superspeedway the power output is reduced nowadays to prevent 250+ laps, hybrid technology can't work very well on an oval but it does in streets and on roadtracks. Exactly where they want the more power, they get it!

 

 

So the hybrid system will be removed for the speedway races?

 

Thinking about it more, it may be that the KERS is removed from the car for superspeedways.

 

As I understand it, push-to-pass is only available on road courses?

 

So if KERS is to be a push-to-pass system, it won't bee required on ovals.

[Ben1445]

Pathetic. Indycar have made disasterous decisions one after the other for a few years now. Another series goes to the trash heap, oh well. This really is indefensible.

I would be very interested to hear your reasoning behind this ‘indefensible’ judgement you make?

Really, I would. Because even Marshall Pruett thinks this is a good idea. What makes you disagree?