Summer break, you know how this goes
My ranking
Feel free to share yours
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:07
Summer break, you know how this goes
My ranking
Feel free to share yours
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Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:17
Not saying youre wrong about 1 & 2 but .... it's a bit surprising that that a guy who has won 8 out of 12 races so far is not first in your eyes ....
Edit: and who was second in half the races he didnt win .... and was so successful in the first 8 races that respected pundits were declaring not just the the season over, but the entire sport dead .... because he was so successful he was making it "boring" and "killing the sport".
.....did he really perform so badly in the next 4 races?? after all he did win 2 of them... and in fairly extraordinary fashion.
Its like you have to downplay LH's achievements to be a serious analyst .... Max said, "a number of other drivers could do the same - in that car" - and it seems like this is a popular view..... how else do you explain a very credible poster doing anything but considering the guy who won 8 out of 12 races as best driver of the season so far .... you'd figure that just the weight of the statistics would force this conclusion ... but it seems that the incredible stats are taken to mean that somehow LH has it too easy and its not down to his peformance .... as MV said - other drivers could do the same.
Edited by jjcale, 04 August 2019 - 16:25.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:21
BOT in 6th, behind BOTH Ferrari drivers is a tad harsh on him. You're basically discounting his great performances around Australia, Baku, and in qualfiying as well.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:23
BOT in 6th, behind BOTH Ferrari drivers is a tad harsh on him. You're basically discounting his great performances around Australia, Baku, and in qualfiying as well.
Considering the discrepancy between him and Lewis it really isn't. He started off alright but he's pretty much turned into Gasly in silver in the last couple of races.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:26
Edited by TomNokoe, 06 August 2019 - 21:57.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:30
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:31
I think it is a pretty fair list, I am anti- Sainz so me wanting him further down the list is at least partially mired in that failing of mine. And I would flip Giovanizzi and Grosjean.
For those complaining that Hamilton is not 1st on the list through his results, if these lists were that simple all we have to do is look at the driver standings, the difference in performance between Verstappen and Gasly is a testament to how good Verstappen have been this season.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:33
Am I alone in thinking it's wrong to mark Lewis down for his qualifying?
Am I alone in thinking he sacrifices something in favour of race pace, whereas Bottas doesn't, which is why VB is so strong in qualifying in comparison?
It seems like Kovaleinen's curse is affecting Bottas. Kovaleinen was often the equal of Hamilton on Saturdays (fuel corrected) but nowhere near on Sundays.
I think Lewis just optimises the setup for the tyres and his way of managing them, while others optimise for one lap pace alone.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:35
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:36
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:41
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:42
Only if you don't take the car into account. There have been quite some races where a poor races would mean a f2 nothing more.Hamilton has won 8/12 and is leading the WDC by a country mile.
I would need to commit myself to a looney asylum if I even dreamt of him not being in first place.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:46
1. Max
2. Lewis
3.Lec
4. Bot
5. Sainz
6.Seb
7.Kimi
8.Norris
9.Albon
10.Russel
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:48
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:50
Hamilton has won 8/12 and is leading the WDC by a country mile.
I would need to commit myself to a looney asylum if I even dreamt of him not being in first place.
you can't imagine people rating Verstappen's accomplishments in a Red Bull-Honda higher than Hamilton in Mercedes?
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:51
1. Verstappen - Flawless this year.
2. Hamilton - Almost flawless this year. Had some scruffy sessions and of course Hockenheim.
3. Raikkonen - I get the feeling he is pulling more from that Alfa than many others would be able to. Lots of races he is 'just there' at the front of the midfield
4. Sainz - Had some terrible bad luck at the start of the year, but has been driving pretty good.
5. Norris - He's doing quite well for a rookie, isn't he?
6. Russell - Very hard to judge, but I think he's doing a stellar job.
7. Ricciardo - Came in a new team and starts to beat Hulkenberg. Not sure if I expected that.
8. Bottas - Had some good weekends. Also some where he was just way off the pace.
9. Leclerc - He's quick. But makes too many mistakes too put him higher up the list.
This part I think is too difficult
19. Kubica
20. Gasly
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:52
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:55
you can't imagine people rating Verstappen's accomplishments in a Red Bull-Honda higher than Hamilton in Mercedes?
2 x 5th places and 5 x 4th places?
Top 3 team with a top 3 budget?
No I can't.
Edited by KeithD68, 04 August 2019 - 17:11.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 16:56
Edited by Lights, 04 August 2019 - 16:58.
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Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:00
It’s a tough one. Max and Hamilton have been so incredible, while everybody else has been mediocre at best. I guess you have to give credit to Sainz for being consistently 6th or 7th and for Bottas for some of his early 2.0 performances.
Neither Ferrari driver is fit to drive a top level car judging by this year.
Renault’s drivers have also disappointed considering the hype.
Kimi has been a steady performer but we know he doesn’t have ultimate pace anymore. Giovinazzi has not done well.
Kvyat deserves a spot in the top 10 I think, he had been consistent and hasn’t made any big mistakes. Albon has been “league average” to use a baseball term.
Stroll has been awful in qualifying, while Perez has been anonymous, I assume the car isn’t that good this year.
Haas’ drivers have been awful and are in the bottom 5 along with Kubica (should not be anywhere near an F1 car at this point) and Gasly.
I think this is quite harsh especially for drivers like Sainz and Kimi who have pretty much been able to maximize their own results almost every weekend and to Norris who has had qreat rookie season, same with Russel, even though we dont know how much he is flattered because of lack of pace of Kubica. Ofc if your standards are up to the level that everyone should be where Max and Lewis are at the moment, then I quess everyone else is indeed average to you.
Edited by Balnazzard, 04 August 2019 - 17:03.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:09
I think this is quite harsh especially for drivers like Sainz and Kimi who have pretty much been able to maximize their own results almost every weekend and to Norris who has had qreat rookie season, same with Russel, even though we dont know how much he is flattered because of lack of pace of Kubica.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:14
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:14
Not saying youre wrong about 1 & 2 but .... it's a bit surprising that that a guy who has won 8 out of 12 races so far is not first in your eyes ....
Edit: and who was second in half the races he didnt win .... and was so successful in the first 8 races that respected pundits were declaring not just the the season over, but the entire sport dead .... because he was so successful he was making it "boring" and "killing the sport".
.....did he really perform so badly in the next 4 races?? after all he did win 2 of them... and in fairly extraordinary fashion.
Its like you have to downplay LH's achievements to be a serious analyst .... Max said, "a number of other drivers could do the same - in that car" - and it seems like this is a popular view..... how else do you explain a very credible poster doing anything but considering the guy who won 8 out of 12 races as best driver of the season so far .... you'd figure that just the weight of the statistics would force this conclusion ... but it seems that the incredible stats are taken to mean that somehow LH has it too easy and its not down to his peformance .... as MV said - other drivers could do the same.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:14
2 x 5th places and 5 x 4th places?
Top 3 team with a top 3 budget?
No I can't.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:20
1. Hamilton: I’m freely going to admit to a bit of recency bias here and say that before today I probably wouldn’t have ranked him no. 1 on this list. However, Hamilton’s ultimate highs were just a bit higher than Verstappen’s (going the distance in Monaco, his imperious drive in Silverstone and, of course, that drive today). The Hungarian GP showed why he’s still the yardstick everyone else has to measure themselves against. As usual, he took a bit longer than others to fully wake from hibernation, but since Barcelona he has once again been (mostly) lights-out, the weird weekend in Germany notwithstanding. A bit scruffy in places as well, but winning 8/12 would be a strong argument for any driver to be placed in P1 on the merit of that stat alone. It looks like he has the title all but wrapped up, and some of his strongest venues from years past are still to come.
2. Verstappen: Hasn’t really done anything not to be ranked one place higher on the list. I felt like he could have a bit more in qualifying on occasion, but most of the justification of why he’s not in P1 can already be found above. Verstappen’s lone bad mistake of the year against Hamilton in Monaco (yes, I am rating that botched overtake as a mistake, as it easily could’ve wiped out him and Hamilton). He also hasn’t had to bother with intra-team competition at all, and I genuinely cannot tell whether to hold that for or against him.
3. Sainz: I don’t actually have that much to say about him. Much like Verstappen, he has excelled at getting the maximum out of the car, only that his package is usually much more limited. He was lucky in Silverstone, but his place in the WDC as “best of the rest” is well deserved. In a season that has seen quite a few mistakes from the drivers in the Top 6 cars, that is enough to lift him above all but two of them. Whether he’s actually better than some of them remains to be seen, but on current form, I think he might at least have a shot in equal machinery.
4. Leclerc: Much like Vettel, he had his moments, but ultimately acquitted himself extremely well for his first year in a Top 6 car, and only his second in the series. Two poles and multiple podiums is a really good haul, even though he needs to cut down on the small mistakes in qualifying.
5. Vettel: Once again crumbled under pressure multiple times, but delivered two measured drives in Hockenheim and Hungary to elevate himself above Bottas in this ranking. His battle with Leclerc should be one to watch. He has also been the victim of his shambles of a team this year, which at times led to the impression that he’s been personally cursed by the Racing Gods.
6. Bottas (1.0? 2.0? 1.5?) : Once again emphatically the second-best Merc driver. Strong at the start of the season and occasionally rapid in qualifying, but inconsistency, bad starts and a general lack of race pace have cost him dearly. His recent race-ending mistake in Hockenheim and weak performance in Hungary drop him behind Vettel on this list.
7. Norris: After a disappointing year in F2, he has hit back emphatically this year. Strong speed-wise, but for the moment, he seems to lack Sainz’s curious ability to bring home the results when it matters. That being said, he was very unlucky in two of the last three races, and with his retirement in Germany.
8. Raikkönen: Solid as a rock. Has almost single-handedly dragged Alfa in front of Racing Point in the WCC, and while he is starting to struggle against Giovinazzi in qualifying, on race day he is always a force to be reckoned with. He showed that he still has value as an F1 driver that goes beyond his marketing appeal.
9. Russell: Has clearly had the edge over Kubica in terms of speed, and only doesn’t rank higher because we have no idea how he would look against a teammate that is not a complete unknown.
10. Kvyat has impressed me immensely this year. His podium drive was inspired, and he has had a number of other strong performances. Just edges out Albon for the last place in my Top 10.
11. Albon
12. Ricciardo
13. Perez
14. Hülkenberg
15. Magnussen
16. Giovinazzi
17. Grosjean
18. Stroll
19. Gasly
20. Kubica
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:21
Just wondering if you used to use the same criteria for Verstappen in previous seasons? Hmmm9. Leclerc - He's quick. But makes too many mistakes too put him higher up the list.
Edited by PlayboyRacer, 04 August 2019 - 17:37.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:33
Ver has improved immensely and it's a pleasure to watch him race now, but he's allowed to race at peak efficiently because his team mate is nowhere. I hope he and Lewis continue this through the second half of the season. Today's race was a fantastic demonstration of their skill.
Sainz, Kimi, and rookies Norris and Albon have been impressive this year. The Ferrari boys have been good but over driving, and the team as a whole are still throwing away opportunities.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:38
Posted 04 August 2019 - 17:46
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:00
Its about the driver not the car.Hamilton has won 8/12 and is leading the WDC by a country mile.
I would need to commit myself to a looney asylum if I even dreamt of him not being in first place.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:04
1) Lewis Hamilton
2) Max Verstappen
3) Carlos Sainz
4) Valtteri Bottas
5) Charles Leclerc
6) Sebastian Vettel
7) Lando Norris
8) Kimi Raikkonen
9) Daniil Kvyat
10) Alexander Albon
11) George Russell
12) Daniel Ricciardo
13) Sergio Perez
14) Nico Hulkenberg
15) Pierre Gasly
16) Lance Stroll
17) Antonio Giovinazzi
18) Kevin Magnussen
19) Romain Grosjean
20) Robert Kubica
Edited by HammyHamiltonFan, 04 August 2019 - 18:04.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:05
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:08
Not saying youre wrong about 1 & 2 but .... it's a bit surprising that that a guy who has won 8 out of 12 races so far is not first in your eyes ....
Edit: and who was second in half the races he didnt win .... and was so successful in the first 8 races that respected pundits were declaring not just the the season over, but the entire sport dead .... because he was so successful he was making it "boring" and "killing the sport".
.....did he really perform so badly in the next 4 races?? after all he did win 2 of them... and in fairly extraordinary fashion.
Its like you have to downplay LH's achievements to be a serious analyst .... Max said, "a number of other drivers could do the same - in that car" - and it seems like this is a popular view..... how else do you explain a very credible poster doing anything but considering the guy who won 8 out of 12 races as best driver of the season so far .... you'd figure that just the weight of the statistics would force this conclusion ... but it seems that the incredible stats are taken to mean that somehow LH has it too easy and its not down to his peformance .... as MV said - other drivers could do the same.
I think Maklar has given a pretty fair assessment, tbh. We all know Lewis is an excellent driver but there have been occasions this season where even he's admitted he hasn't been at his best. I think ranking him #2 because of that is hardly an insult.
If number of wins defines best driver, then that pretty much excludes most of the grid because they don't have the equipment to challenge for them. I think you're confusing most successful with best.
There's a case to be made for either of them, but it's hard to see what Max could have done better anywhere. Hamilton, for the most part, has been excellent. But he hasn't necessarily been excellent at every race and could have e.g. done better in the one before this. So it's not unreasonable to drop him a mark because of that.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:11
Edited by CharlesWinstone, 04 August 2019 - 18:11.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:11
I'm amazed that virtually everyone puts Sainz as the third best driver. He's been a bastion of mediocrity throughout his career, and even now is regularly out-qualified by his rookie teammate. My feeling is that this year's McLaren is a very, very good car and Sainz's performances look impressive because of it, and not some vast improvement in his driving skill. If the likes of Alonso or Ricciardo were in a McLaren it would closer still to the top 3.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:13
I'm amazed that virtually everyone puts Sainz as the third best driver. He's been a bastion of mediocrity throughout his career, and even now is regularly out-qualified by his rookie teammate. My feeling is that this year's McLaren is a very, very good car and Sainz's performances look impressive because of it, and not some vast improvement in his driving skill. If the likes of Alonso or Ricciardo were in a McLaren it would closer still to the top 3.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:14
I'm amazed that virtually everyone puts Sainz as the third best driver. He's been a bastion of mediocrity throughout his career, and even now is regularly out-qualified by his rookie teammate. My feeling is that this year's McLaren is a very, very good car and Sainz's performances look impressive because of it, and not some vast improvement in his driving skill. If the likes of Alonso or Ricciardo were in a McLaren it would closer still to the top 3.
I tend to agree with this. Sainz has been outperformed by Norris more than once. He's put in a solid but unspectacular performance. Having said that, it's clear McLaren are playing it safe and more than once they've instructed their drivers to go for a delta instead of pushing, so hard to really judge how well the drivers are doing. I do think a more seasoned driver like Alonso would have gotten better results by now, though
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:16
Funny this. Alonso was in a Mclaren and left volunteerly and Ricciardo choose Renault over Mclaren.
That's true. But no driver has foresight. Sadly I think Alonso did his usual spectacular timing thing and left just before McLaren turned a corner...
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:17
He deserves more credit than you’re giving him. Just look how many points he is ahead of the next supposedly best of the rest driver. You don’t achieve that if you’re just a mediocre driver. The car has only really come good after Spain. Not to mention Sainz started the season with three DNF’s didn’t he?I'm amazed that virtually everyone puts Sainz as the third best driver. He's been a bastion of mediocrity throughout his career, and even now is regularly out-qualified by his rookie teammate. My feeling is that this year's McLaren is a very, very good car and Sainz's performances look impressive because of it, and not some vast improvement in his driving skill. If the likes of Alonso or Ricciardo were in a McLaren it would closer still to the top 3.
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Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:19
The amount of people in here that put Vettel 6th or 8th or whatever behind guys like Leclerc and Raikkonen has made me question if I'm not failing in my dislike for the guy.
Seriously, how bad do you think he is? If he would have been that bad this year then he wouldn't be 3rd on my list, trust me.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:20
For me its the opposite and Verstappens' highs this season have been absolutely more impressive than Hamiltons. The win in Austria was unbelievable (dont have any other word for it), Germany was incredible too. And the pole lap in Hungary obviously as well (not sure when was the last time Red Bull took pole in Hungary). Also Max has been pretty much flawless in the other rounds. Hamilton has had some strong results but he is still driving the best car and had very mediocre races in Austria and Germany and is having a lot more trouble with Bottas in qualifying than I expected.1. Hamilton: I’m freely going to admit to a bit of recency bias here and say that before today I probably wouldn’t have ranked him no. 1 on this list. However, Hamilton’s ultimate highs were just a bit higher than Verstappen’s (going the distance in Monaco, his imperious drive in Silverstone and, of course, that drive today). The Hungarian GP showed why he’s still the yardstick everyone else has to measure themselves against. As usual, he took a bit longer than others to fully wake from hibernation, but since Barcelona he has once again been (mostly) lights-out, the weird weekend in Germany notwithstanding. A bit scruffy in places as well, but winning 8/12 would be a strong argument for any driver to be placed in P1 on the merit of that stat alone. It looks like he has the title all but wrapped up, and some of his strongest venues from years past are still to come.
Edited by Kao18, 04 August 2019 - 18:21.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:22
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:22
He’s not bad, but has made silly errors in Bahrain and Silverstone. His pace on Saturdays isn’t strong anymore either. Leclerc is in his first season at a topteam and only his second in F1 and has come closer to a win more than Vettel. And, well Raikkonen, he’s outperforming his car and finishes in the points nearly every race without making mistakes.The amount of people in here that put Vettel 6th or 8th or whatever behind guys like Leclerc and Raikkonen has made me question if I'm not failing in my dislike for the guy.
Seriously, how bad do you think he is? If he would have been that bad this year then he wouldn't be 3rd on my list, trust me.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:24
I'm amazed that virtually everyone puts Sainz as the third best driver. He's been a bastion of mediocrity throughout his career, and even now is regularly out-qualified by his rookie teammate. My feeling is that this year's McLaren is a very, very good car and Sainz's performances look impressive because of it, and not some vast improvement in his driving skill. If the likes of Alonso or Ricciardo were in a McLaren it would closer still to the top 3.
Who's done better though? Everybody has been outqualified sometimes and everybody has made some errors. Sainz has only made like 1, and has been very good in races.
I agree perhaps the McLaren is flattering him, but if he finishes 5th in front of Gasly while guys like Perez or Hulkenberg are in 11th and 12th, it's simply hard to say that they did a better job. It's difficult to pull apart these components, so yes being in a better car does help unless you get spanked by your teammate or make a lot of dumb errors. That's just the reality I'm afraid.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:27
Its about the driver not the car.
When you have an algorithm that can separate driver and car, team, and tyres, objectively, please do let us all know.
Edited by KeithD68, 04 August 2019 - 18:30.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:29
Just to remind people that in Germany Hamilton was feeling so rough that there was the possibility that he wasn't actually going to race that weekend.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:38
He’s not bad, but has made silly errors in Bahrain and Silverstone. His pace on Saturdays isn’t strong anymore either. Leclerc is in his first season at a topteam and only his second in F1 and has come closer to a win more than Vettel. And, well Raikkonen, he’s outperforming his car and finishes in the points nearly every race without making mistakes.
So yeah, in my book Leclerc and Raikkonen have done a better job than Vettel.
Leclerc has made silly errors in Baku and Hockenheim, so that counters Vettel's errors. So I don't see how Vettel is behind there just because his pace on Saturdays isn't that strong. It's about Sundays and there Vettel's pace has been better except for a few races like Bahrain. Hungary is a well defining example of this season as far as Ferrari drivers go. If Leclerc was that good he'd have found a way to keep Vettel behind him on days like today.
And Raikkonen better than Vettel, really? Had Raikkonen been in this years Ferrari he'd just have been beaten by Vettel almost every race (bar the races where Vettel would make errors of course). Even in Vettel's biggest comedy year ever, 2018, Vettel ended on top even if you take bad luck from Raikkonen into account as well. That says everything IMO. I don't see any reason why now Raikkonen at Alfa Romeo is suddenly top material again. Kimi might have less PR and feel less pressure now, but surely that didn't effect the 'Iceman' that much at Ferrari? He's not outperforming his car now, he's just beating a teammate that's probably one of the worst drivers on the grid.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:40
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:48
Kimi drove well in 2018 all things considered.Leclerc has made silly errors in Baku and Hockenheim, so that counters Vettel's errors. So I don't see how Vettel is behind there just because his pace on Saturdays isn't that strong. It's about Sundays and there Vettel's pace has been better except for a few races like Bahrain. Hungary is a well defining example of this season as far as Ferrari drivers go. If Leclerc was that good he'd have found a way to keep Vettel behind him on days like today.
And Raikkonen better than Vettel, really? Had Raikkonen been in this years Ferrari he'd just have been beaten by Vettel almost every race (bar the races where Vettel would make errors of course). Even in Vettel's biggest comedy year ever, 2018, Vettel ended on top even if you take bad luck from Raikkonen into account as well. That says everything IMO. I don't see any reason why now Raikkonen at Alfa Romeo is suddenly top material again. Kimi might have less PR and feel less pressure now, but surely that didn't effect the 'Iceman' that much at Ferrari? He's not outperforming his car now, he's just beating a teammate that's probably one of the worst drivers on the grid.
Edited by Vesuvius, 04 August 2019 - 18:50.
Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:53
Just to remind people that in Germany Hamilton was feeling so rough that there was the possibility that he wasn't actually going to race that weekend.
This.
Also.. People have short memory but in Germany Max was the 1st to spin and the rain wasnt even as hard as when Lewis did. It was just luck on Max's side.
Anyway, to the topic, I'd say Lewis and Max have been a class or 2 above everyone else.