324 replies to this topic

[NixxxoN]

This is mid-season driver rankings not mid-season who's car is more disappointing rankings.

That's what happens though, if next year mercs stop winning and get 4th-5th usually they will be rated low, and if williams get 9th-10th they will be rated high, its reward or punishment taking into account historical performances, subconsciously or not

[Muz Bee]

Fine but even if they were level by the end of last year, I very much doubt Carlos is now the 3rd best driver whilst Nico is only the 14th.

Hulk and Sainz finished 7th and 10th in 2018 WDC, 69pts v 53pts, not a big difference. First half qualifying Nico ahead, second half Carlos ahead. So really we shouldn't read too much into their comparative performances in 2018, they were closer than people were saying here.

 

Renault have failed to maintain their level and Daniel is an awkward teammate being a proven winner. One driver (Carlos) made the right move (against predictions) and Nico is picking up the pieces in a bad situation. It's always hard to judge the performances back in the field but with McLaren producing a regular strong car with good reliability it's Carlos who is well on top. Any move by Renault to ditch Nico would be like blaming him for the team's inept performance. With their budget and given where they started from they should be doing better and blaming the drivers is rubbish.

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2019 - 05:01.

[SenorSjon]

https://www.motorspo...tappen/4515330/

 

Perhaps someone can post the numbers? 

[monolulu]

https://www.motorspo...tappen/4515330/
 
Perhaps someone can post the numbers?

Lewis 10 Bottas 7, Vettel 6 Leclerc 8, Max 10 Gas 4, Ric 7 Hulk 6, Gros 6 Mag 6, Norris 8 Sainz 9, Pérez 7 Stroll 5, Kimi 8 Gio 5, Albon 7 Kvyat 7, Russ 8 Kub 5

[Lerdes]

1. Sainz - unexpected
2a. Verstappen - expected
2b. Hamilton - a few surprises but expected
3. Räikkönnen - old but gold
4. Leclerc - flashes of speed but sometimes over ambitious
5. Bottas - not bad but not enough
6. Ricciardo - bad car great driver
7. Norris - future champion
8. Russell - future champion
9. Albon - maybe a very good driver
10. Stroll - better than expected

Vettel - disappointing

[Grundle]

Lewis 10 Bottas 7, Vettel 6 Leclerc 8, Max 10 Gas 4, Ric 7 Hulk 6, Gros 6 Mag 6, Norris 8 Sainz 9, Pérez 7 Stroll 5, Kimi 8 Gio 5, Albon 7 Kvyat 7, Russ 8 Kub 5

Leclerc has not been two marks better than Vettel. I'd put them level. Both on 7

[GTA]

1) Verstappen - Almost perfect

2) Hamilton - A bit of a diva 1st half of the season as usual. Expecting to dominate in the 2nd half as usual

3) Sainz - A revelation. After the Renault drop he has been extremely consistent. Made up for Alonso.

4) Bottas - Great stat but falling back recently.

5) Raikkonen - Consistent as usual and a solid points haul

6) LeClerc - Fast but inexperience brings in mistakes. Extremely unlucky to have lost 2 wins.

7) Ricciardo - Outpacing the Hulk is no joke in his 1st year with the team

8) Norris - Top rookie. Keeping Sainz honest , starts and racecraft need to improve

9) Albon - Great performances and getting better and better. Deserved promotion

10) Hulkenberg - A bit of an anomaly. Seems disinterested, whether it is because Ricciardo is slightly ahead or the car is a POS. Needs new scenery

11) Perez - Strong under the radar drives. Unlucky to not have more points

12) Vettel - Not a team leader anymore. Mistakes have continued from 2018 and pace is choppy

13) Russell - Great performances in the slowest car. Tough to rate considering the driver in the other car.

14) Kvyat - Great podium but overall not as impressive as Albon

15) Magnussen - Some solid drives when the car is there but severely handicapped by machine

16) Stroll - Some good races and can strech tyres but too many Q1 eliminations

17) Grosjean - The flashes of speed are missing but the mistakes are still there. Graduated to damaging his own team's chances

18) Giovinazzi - Worst of the rookies* . Seems to have cut out the crashes but way too slow

19) Gasly - Can't hold 6th place in the 2nd best car. Should have been demoted sooner

20) Kubica - GP3 driver

[Ivanhoe]

Mid season fan and expert ratings from formula1.com

https://www.formula1...jy9dlqczu2.html

[statman]

Racefans also publishing their ranking:

 

1. Verstappen

2. Hamilton

3. Sainz

4. Leclerc

5. Bottas

6. Raikkonen

7. Vettel

8. Ricciardo

9. Norris

10. Russell

11. Perez

12. Albon

13. Magnussen

14. Hulkenberg

15. Kvyat

16. Grosjean

17. Giovinazzi

18. Gasly

19. Stroll

20. Kubica

[Kao18]

6) LeClerc - Fast but inexperience brings in mistakes. Extremely unlucky to have lost 2 wins.

Why was Austria extremely unlucky?

I have a feeling Leclerc has been driving with an aggressive setup more geared towards qualifying than race and thats why his tire management has been lacking somewhat compared to Vettel. It will be interesting to see if he will adjust this approach in the second half of the season.

[Marklar]

 

Racefans also publishing their ranking:

 

1. Verstappen

2. Hamilton

3. Sainz

4. Leclerc

5. Bottas

6. Raikkonen

7. Vettel

8. Ricciardo

9. Norris

10. Russell

11. Perez

12. Albon

13. Magnussen

14. Hulkenberg

15. Kvyat

16. Grosjean

17. Giovinazzi

18. Gasly

19. Stroll

20. Kubica

 

It's an acceptable ranking if we assume that some of the big gaps in position of some relatively closely matched team mates (Albon/Kvyat, Ricciardo/Hulk, Sainz/Norris, etc.) are down to everyone between them being relatively close together.

However it's puzzling how so many have Leclerc above Vettel. If it was a expectations exceeded ranking, then sure thing. But then Verstappen/Hamilton are not 1st and 2nd. Otherwise it's a weird mix of both which is just stupid IMO.

Edited by Marklar, 26 August 2019 - 11:09.

[CSF]

Why was Austria extremely unlucky?

I have a feeling Leclerc has been driving with an aggressive setup more geared towards qualifying than race and thats why his tire management has been lacking somewhat compared to Vettel. It will be interesting to see if he will adjust this approach in the second half of the season.

 

 

Yeah Silverstone kinda proved that I think, given how quickly he began to struggle with tyre wear, creating a nice big Red Bull/Vettel train behind him. 

[sopa]

However it's puzzling how so many have Leclerc above Vettel. If it was a expectations exceeded ranking, then sure thing. 

 

I'm not sure Leclerc is exceeding expectations. He was expected to give Vettel a run for his money, and even beat him.

 

I think the more likely explanation is that people (including F1 media it seems) are fed up of Vettel, so they can't even fit him into top 10 any more. Not sure, what he is supposed to do to at least get rated inside top 10. This state of being "fed up" feeds all kinds of rumours of Vettel's imminent retirement or at least return to Red Bull. 2018 has done a lot of damage to Vettel's reputation and hence there is a big push to get rid of him altogether.

[Marklar]

I'm not sure Leclerc is exceeding expectations. He was expected to give Vettel a run for his money, and even beat him.

I think the more likely explanation is that people (including F1 media it seems) are fed up of Vettel, so they can't even fit him into top 10 any more. Not sure, what he is supposed to do to at least get rated inside top 10.   This state of being "fed up" feeds all kinds of rumours of Vettel's imminent retirement or at least return to Red Bull. 2018 has done a lot of damage to Vettel's reputation and hence there is a big push to get rid of him altogether.

 

mean that more in the "OMG he is a pretty-much-rookie and new to the team, while the other guy is years in the team and a 4 times WDC, and yet it's already close, how much closer will it be when he settles in, smh" way.

We sort of saw it in 2017 as well. Bottas was ranked in most mid-season rankings ahead of Hamilton although Hamilton was better than him by the modest margin people expected on overage. Usually people have three different sort of expecatations: one is downplaying the expectations because they are new or because they are actually not as good, one is hyping their abilities, and one is something in-between. Depending how well the driver does they get adjusted along the way (i.e. people are jumping between having it expected all along that Leclerc will beat Vettel after performances like Bahrain to stating that you cant expect him to immediately beat him after stuff like Germany). It's often also agenda-driven: If the driver isnt doing as well as you thought you just pull the "actually what did you expect, he isnt that special" card, because otherwise you have to give the other guy credit (not saying that it's always the case of course, sometimes it really happens that somebody is really not as good as thought once they get promoted)

It's not something that only applies to Vettel, it's something we often see. Even if you go further down the grid this year. Kvyat is driving IMO a bit better than Albon, at worst they are equal, but at all rankings Albon is ahead purely due to rookie bonus. It's - like for Leclerc - based on the assumption that being close from the get-go means that you are actually performing better than your team mate because you are faced with more obstacles and will thus perform even better in the future (again, the Bottas/Hamilton example is a good one, because this forum was filled with such predictions in early 2017 as well), but in reality we often see it that sometimes it just doesnt make that much of a difference, and instead of making assumptions about how it will be they should just judge how it is.

Edited by Marklar, 26 August 2019 - 11:58.

[ElectricBoogie]

Vettel was gifted a good number of points with strategy and team orders, while he wasted lots of points for instance in Bahrain and Montreal. Leclerc is far from perfect but Vettel's points advantage flatter him a bit too much.

Edited by ElectricBoogie, 26 August 2019 - 15:28.

[1Devil1]

Vettel was gifted a good number of points with strategy and tema orders, while he wasted lots of points for instance in Bahrain and Montreal. Leclerc is far from perfect but Vettel's points advantage flatter him a bit too much.

 

Vettel lost a lot of points by technical troubles in qualifying. I don't know what Leclerc lost due to team orders, its a myth that effected his points. Mostly his crashes are the reason the gap to Vettel is big as it is. 

[sopa]

Fair enough, Marklar. I guess change of environment can do a lot of good to driver's reputation. Because you enter a new team to challenge the incumbent already settled driver. That is unless you are of course Gasly and fail to perform to any reasonable level at all. Going forward from this - if somehow miraculously Vettel joins Red Bull next year, it could initially boost his rankings if he is able to threaten Verstappen (not match or beat him). Because - he is the new driver settling in and the other guy (Max) is expected to be #1 anyway.

[Vesuvius]

Vettel was gifted a good number of points with strategy and tema orders, while he wasted lots of points for instance in Bahrain and Montreal. Leclerc is far from perfect but Vettel's points advantage flatter him a bit too much.

Not that much really, I think the gap is pretty accurate.Both of them have made errors, as have the team and both have had reliability problems.

[Vesuvius]

Vettel lost a lot of points by technical troubles in qualifying. I don't know what Leclerc lost due to team orders, its a myth that effected his points. Mostly his crashes are the reason the gap to Vettel is big as it is.

This.

[Claymore25]

Vettel was gifted a good number of points with strategy and tema orders, while he wasted lots of points for instance in Bahrain and Montreal. Leclerc is far from perfect but Vettel's points advantage flatter him a bit too much.

Right, like in Germany and Austria?

[ElectricBoogie]

Right, like in Germany and Austria?

Why would you even offer those? You did see the other races I'm sure.

[Grundle]

Shall we do a "fairness" scorecard Vettel VS Leclerc
Australia: Only team orders stopped Leclerc from passing Vettel.
Lec 12 Vet 10
Bahrain:
Leclerc lost victory by reliability. Fastest lap. Vettel finished 5th
Lec 38 Vet 20
China:
Let's just say Vettels small pace advantage would have been enough anyway to overtake in pits or track. But Lec was screwed over on Verstappen.
Lec 50 Vet 35
Baku
Lec 61 fastest lap. Vet 50
Spain
Think Vettel was faster and would have prevailed most times
Lec 71 Vet 62
Monaco
Difficult one here, gonna have to say CL made a mistake, say even if he would have finished 6th or wherever, and the team screwed him over, he still made the mistake so can't give him any points
Lec 71 Vet 80
Canada:
Rules are rules and all that
Lec 86 Vet 98
France:
Lec 101 Vet 109 fastest lap
Austria:
Realistically, I believe the most likely finishing position for Vettel was third.
Lec 119 Vet 124
Silverstone
Mistakes are mistakes at end of the day
Lec 134 Vet 124
Germany:
See above
Lec 134 Vet 142
Hungary:
Lec 146 Vet 157.

In conclusion Leclerc has had slightly more bad luck almost entirely because of Bahrain, yet Vettel has been slightly more consistent. Anyone marking Leclerc higher than Vettel is based on expectations, more than actual performance.

[xtremeclock]

Why would you even offer those? You did see the other races I'm sure.

 

Austria: 

 

Vettel started from P9 and came 0.6s short of a podium, in terms of race pace he was as quick as Leclerc if not a little bit quicker.

[Vesuvius]

Shall we do a "fairness" scorecard Vettel VS Leclerc
Australia: Only team orders stopped Leclerc from passing Vettel.
Lec 12 Vet 10
Bahrain:
Leclerc lost victory by reliability. Fastest lap. Vettel finished 5th
Lec 38 Vet 20
China:
Let's just say Vettels small pace advantage would have been enough anyway to overtake in pits or track. But Lec was screwed over on Verstappen.
Lec 50 Vet 35
Baku
Lec 61 fastest lap. Vet 50
Spain
Think Vettel was faster and would have prevailed most times
Lec 71 Vet 62
Monaco
Difficult one here, gonna have to say CL made a mistake, say even if he would have finished 6th or wherever, and the team screwed him over, he still made the mistake so can't give him any points
Lec 71 Vet 80
Canada:
Rules are rules and all that
Lec 86 Vet 98
France:
Lec 101 Vet 109 fastest lap
Austria:
Realistically, I believe the most likely finishing position for Vettel was third.
Lec 119 Vet 124
Silverstone
Mistakes are mistakes at end of the day
Lec 134 Vet 124
Germany:
See above
Lec 134 Vet 142
Hungary:
Lec 146 Vet 157.

In conclusion Leclerc has had slightly more bad luck almost entirely because of Bahrain, yet Vettel has been slightly more consistent. Anyone marking Leclerc higher than Vettel is based on expectations, more than actual performance.

 

Australia : It was not easy to overtake, as we had seen from various situations during the race, Leclerc only caught Vettel because of fresh tyres due to better strategy.

 

Bahrain: agree, Leclerc miles faster and Vettel ****ed up.

 

China: Vettel was that tiny bit faster, but perhaps not enough to overtake, but enough to justify team order.

 

Baku: Leclerc ****ed up.

 

Spain: Vettel was the faster one.

 

Monaco: Team and Leclerc ****ed up, Vettel took the maximum.
 

Canada: Leclerc ****ed up qualifying, Vettel small mistake in the race, that cost a win.

 

France: strong from Leclerc, very poor from Vettel.

 

Austria: Leclerc was strong in qualifying, but Vettel had realiability problem. Vettel faster in the race, so with normal qualifying could have challenged Leclerc or even Max for that matter.

 

Silverstone: Leclerc lucky with Max/Vettel collission, stupid mistake yet again from Vettel, that cost him easy 4th.

 

Germany: Mistake from Leclerc, good race from Vettel when it was dry.

 

Hungary: Vettel stronger in the race.

 

so all in all agree, both have done mistakes, both have had some good performances etc.

[Vesuvius]

Austria: 

 

Vettel started from P9 and came 0.6s short of a podium, in terms of race pace he was as quick as Leclerc if not a little bit quicker.

 

indeed, he was quicker.

 

but overally this season has been dissapointment for both, one of worst from Vettel (his qualifyings have been very poor, due to car not suiting his driving style). Leclerc is fast in qualifyings, and has had couple of good races, but he still has a lot to learn.

Edited by Vesuvius, 26 August 2019 - 16:32.