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2019 Mid-Season Driver Rankings


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#51 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:56

Leclerc has made silly errors in Baku and Hockenheim, so that counters Vettel's errors. So I don't see how Vettel is behind there just because his pace on Saturdays isn't that strong. It's about Sundays and there Vettel's pace has been better except for a few races like Bahrain. Hungary is a well defining example of this season as far as Ferrari drivers go. If Leclerc was that good he'd have found a way to keep Vettel behind him on days like today.

And Raikkonen better than Vettel, really? Had Raikkonen been in this years Ferrari he'd just have been beaten by Vettel almost every race (bar the races where Vettel would make errors of course). Even in Vettel's biggest comedy year ever, 2018, Vettel ended on top even if you take bad luck from Raikkonen into account as well. That says everything IMO. I don't see any reason why now Raikkonen at Alfa Romeo is suddenly top material again. Kimi might have less PR and feel less pressure now, but surely that didn't effect the 'Iceman' that much at Ferrari? He's not outperforming his car now, he's just beating a teammate that's probably one of the worst drivers on the grid.


I think 2019 might trump 2018 for Vettel in terms of poor driving. Do people forget all the times he’s spun or hit another car this year? That is not what Ferrari’s lead driver should be doing.

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#52 Beamer

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 18:57

That's true. But no driver has foresight. Sadly I think Alonso did his usual spectacular timing thing and left just before McLaren turned a corner...


Wonder what is the cause and what is the consequence in that one....

#53 Lights

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:00

I think 2019 might trump 2018 for Vettel in terms of poor driving. Do people forget all the times he’s spun or hit another car this year? That is not what Ferrari’s lead driver should be doing.

 

Apparently, care to list them for me? Because from what I recall I don't see how it trumps 2018 at all. Perhaps you forgot all the times he messed up last year.



#54 Lights

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:14

Kimi drove well in 2018 all things considered.

You get the most out of Kimi, when you focus on him and listen to him, like McLaren and Lotus did and Ferrari 2009. So far this season, he has driven very well, not done many mistakes etc.Giovinazzi also isn't bad driver at all.

 

Well nobody knows how good that Sauber really is, so we each see what we want to see in that. 

 

But it's interesting to say the least that after 6 years Kimi is by some suddenly mentioned as a top 4 driver again. I just don't believe it. Especially since he's almost 40. He's definitely making the most out of what he can achieve in that Alfa, but I've seen him being slow in the past 5 years so often that I'm sure there's a lot more to get out of that car.



#55 Fallout

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:16

Well nobody knows how good that Sauber really is, so we each see what we want to see in that. 

 

But it's interesting to say the least that after 6 years Kimi is by some suddenly mentioned as a top 4 driver again. I just don't believe it. Especially since he's almost 40. He's definitely making the most out of what he can achieve in that Alfa, but I've seen him being slow in the past 5 years so often that I'm sure there's a lot more to get out of that car.

Maybe we are reading people's lists differently, but I think people are pretty fair putting Kimi 7-10th at the list atm. He has been getting points whenever possible and making no major mistakes, and the drivers standings show this as well. So he's not a top performer anymore, he's just performing a lot better than what most people would've expected after his Ferrari seasons.



#56 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:18

Leclerc has made silly errors in Baku and Hockenheim, so that counters Vettel's errors. So I don't see how Vettel is behind there just because his pace on Saturdays isn't that strong. It's about Sundays and there Vettel's pace has been better except for a few races like Bahrain. Hungary is a well defining example of this season as far as Ferrari drivers go. If Leclerc was that good he'd have found a way to keep Vettel behind him on days like today.

And Raikkonen better than Vettel, really? Had Raikkonen been in this years Ferrari he'd just have been beaten by Vettel almost every race (bar the races where Vettel would make errors of course). Even in Vettel's biggest comedy year ever, 2018, Vettel ended on top even if you take bad luck from Raikkonen into account as well. That says everything IMO. I don't see any reason why now Raikkonen at Alfa Romeo is suddenly top material again. Kimi might have less PR and feel less pressure now, but surely that didn't effect the 'Iceman' that much at Ferrari? He's not outperforming his car now, he's just beating a teammate that's probably one of the worst drivers on the grid.

Vettel is a four time world champion with twelve F1 seasons under his belt, so his expectation should be higher than Leclerc’s to begin with.

And we’re talking about this season, so I don’t understand why you bring up Kimi’s 2018 season? We are ranking who performed best in the first half of 2019, not who’s best driver on the grid.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 04 August 2019 - 19:22.


#57 Lights

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:25

Maybe we are reading people's lists differently, but I think people are pretty fair putting Kimi 7-10th at the list atm. He has been getting points whenever possible and making no major mistakes, and the drivers standings show this as well. So he's not a top performer anymore, he's just performing a lot better than what most people would've expected after his Ferrari seasons.

I looked at the list on the first page and I can find 6 people, out of 15 or so, that put Kimi higher than 7th, and more importantly, ahead of Vettel. So sure, not everybody did, but I was still surprised by the amount and that's what my post was about.



#58 JRodrigues

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:34

1.Verstappen

2.Hamilton

3.Leclerc

4.Vettel

5.Raikkonen

6.Sainz

7.Norris

8.Bottas

9.Kvyat

10.Ricciardo

11.Hulkenberg

12.Albon

13.Russell

14.Gasly

15.Perez

16.Magnussen

17.Grosjean

18.Giovinazzi

19.Stroll

20.Kubica


Edited by JRodrigues, 04 August 2019 - 19:34.


#59 Lights

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:34

Vettel is a four time world champion with twelve F1 seasons under his belt, so his expectation should be higher than Leclerc’s to begin with.

And we’re talking about this season, so I don’t understand why you bring up Kimi’s 2018 season? We are ranking who performed best in the first half of 2019, not who’s best driver on the grid.

 

So you use Vettel's history in your decision to rank Leclerc higher than him, yet I'm not allowed to bring up Kimi's 2018 season? That's a bit ironic.

 

Because you know, that's precisely why I don't see how you could rate Kimi higher than Vettel or Leclerc. Because Kimi's history shows he's never been close to Vettel, while Leclerc is. Yet you rate Kimi above both now.


Edited by Lights, 04 August 2019 - 19:34.


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#60 Vesuvius

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:35

I looked at the list on the first page and I can find 6 people, out of 15 or so, that put Kimi higher than 7th, and more importantly, ahead of Vettel. So sure, not everybody did, but I was still surprised by the amount and that's what my post was about.


Well both Ferrari drivers have underachieved and definately made more mistakes than Kimi, that's likely all that can be said about this season.

#61 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:40

So you use Vettel's history in your decision to rank Leclerc higher than him, yet I'm not allowed to bring up Kimi's 2018 season? That's a bit ironic.

Because you know, that's precisely why I don't see how you could rate Kimi higher than Vettel or Leclerc. Because Kimi's history shows he's never been close to Vettel, while Leclerc is. Yet you rate Kimi above both now.

That’s why I ranked Leclerc higher than Vettel, because he’s close to him despite his lack of experience. And Kimi is performing relatively better in a worse car than during his Ferrari spell in a good car, so that’s why he’s ranked higher.

#62 barzini

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:40

So you use Vettel's history in your decision to rank Leclerc higher than him, yet I'm not allowed to bring up Kimi's 2018 season? That's a bit ironic.

 

Because you know, that's precisely why I don't see how you could rate Kimi higher than Vettel or Leclerc. Because Kimi's history shows he's never been close to Vettel, while Leclerc is. Yet you rate Kimi above both now.

 

Nobody is saying Kimi is better driver than Lec or Vet. But he has, so far, performed better than them this season. He hasn't crashed out of races/qualifying sessions, he is constantly challenging faster midfield cars and getting results. So, yeah Kimi has done better job than them this season but that doesn't make him the worst driver on the grid. Or Gasly the worst driver on the grid even though he has been performing as one. Heck, even in 2014 Kimi was probably the worst performing driver but that doesn't mean he was the worst driver. See the difference? This topic still is, about season performance, not about the absolute "who's the best". It's quite obvious that the drivers on the best cars are the best drivers.



#63 Dicun

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:42

 

3. Sainz = Place 3-6 in this ranking are pretty close. Has to improve in qualifying against his strong rookie team mate, although the quali score is not entirely representative due to outside factors

 

This is absolutely the case for Lando on race days. 

 

Australia - bad strategy, he was pitted at the worst possible time and stuck behind Giovinazzi for the rest of the race, China - crashed into by Kvyat, Barcelona - crashed into by Stroll, Canada - rear breaks failure, France - hydraulics, Silverstone - bad strategy, Germany - bad strategy, engine failure, Hungary - bad pit stop, lost out on a lot of places as a result.

 

That's 8 races out of 12 in which things he had no control over happened to him and screwed his race up. The boy is just crazy unfortunate on Sundays.



#64 Jape65

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 19:42

Leclerc has made silly errors in Baku and Hockenheim, so that counters Vettel's errors. So I don't see how Vettel is behind there just because his pace on Saturdays isn't that strong. It's about Sundays and there Vettel's pace has been better except for a few races like Bahrain. Hungary is a well defining example of this season as far as Ferrari drivers go. If Leclerc was that good he'd have found a way to keep Vettel behind him on days like today. 

 

And Raikkonen better than Vettel, really? Had Raikkonen been in this years Ferrari he'd just have been beaten by Vettel almost every race (bar the races where Vettel would make errors of course). Even in Vettel's biggest comedy year ever, 2018, Vettel ended on top even if you take bad luck from Raikkonen into account as well. That says everything IMO. I don't see any reason why now Raikkonen at Alfa Romeo is suddenly top material again. Kimi might have less PR and feel less pressure now, but surely that didn't effect the 'Iceman' that much at Ferrari? He's not outperforming his car now, he's just beating a teammate that's probably one of the worst drivers on the grid.

I think Räikkönen has been better this year than Vettel. Vettel may be faster, but what good is it if you compete poorly. Did you not protect Vettel against Räikkönen this season just because he was better than Räikkönen in earlier years? If so, you will not understand the whole idea at all.



#65 Tsarwash

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:01

So you use Vettel's history in your decision to rank Leclerc higher than him, yet I'm not allowed to bring up Kimi's 2018 season? That's a bit ironic.

 

Because you know, that's precisely why I don't see how you could rate Kimi higher than Vettel or Leclerc. Because Kimi's history shows he's never been close to Vettel, while Leclerc is. Yet you rate Kimi above both now.

Ricciardo's history shows that Vettel was never been close to him. Oh hang on.. 



#66 sopa

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:13

I agree that the image of Sainz and Raikkonen has been flattered by the cars this season relatively speaking. If they were paired with Leclerc, Vettel or Ricciardo I'm sure they would get outpaced most of the time. But it shows again, how much circumstances can influence the impression. It reminds me a bit, how Perez or whoever was voted as 3rd best driver in 2015, because there wasn't an obvious choice and McLaren drivers were stuck in a sh*tbox.

 

Fair play to Carlos and Kimi though - they have been doing a solid job, have delivered on opportunities presented to them and kept bringing consistent points. But favourable circumstances don't last forever and these drivers could be put into a different light next year. For example Hulkenberg and Perez have found out, how hard it is to leave a positive impression once you have to drive a lower midfield car, where points are very hard to come by.



#67 Jovanotti

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:20

The yardstick for Räikkönen this season is naturally lower than if he'd still be in a top team against one of the best drivers. Though many forget that while he was often beaten by Vettel, he still is an excellent driver even when pushing 40, infact better than most midfielders. Plus he's getting definitely more attention and less dodgy strategies than as default #2.

Edited by Jovanotti, 04 August 2019 - 20:21.


#68 Lights

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:20

That’s why I ranked Leclerc higher than Vettel, because he’s close to him despite his lack of experience. And Kimi is performing relatively better in a worse car than during his Ferrari spell in a good car, so that’s why he’s ranked higher.

 

Earlier you said "We are ranking who performed best in the first half of 2019". Experience is not part of that. "he's close to him" is just a way to say that he's not on his level but near it. With that bold sentence you're literally saying Leclerc is behind Vettel. Then put him behind  :D

 

On Raikkonen and Vettel, let's agree to disagree, impossible to say as they're in different cars.


Edited by Lights, 04 August 2019 - 20:21.


#69 Thatfastguy

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:22

1.Verstappen: no. 1 and not even close tbh. Faultless and extract every tenth from his car every time. He is the only one outperforming his car putting it far above where it belongs sometimes. Never off the pace. He’s unparalleled this season.

2.Hamilton: brilliant driver but has had plenty of scruffy moments this season. 8 wins but Merc has never been so dominant in their ultra-dominant reign since 2014 and only the mediocre Bottas to beat.

3. Leclerc: very talented but still too many mistakes. Good to see him give Seb a run for his money.

4. Sainz
5. Vettel
6. Norris
7. Bottas
8. Raikkonen
9. Albon
10. Russell
11. Ricciardo
12. Kvyat
13. Hulkenberg
14. Perez
15. Magnussen
16. Grosjean
17. Giovanazzi
18. Stroll
19. Gasly
20. Kubica: disgrace to F1

#70 Lights

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:26

Nobody is saying Kimi is better driver than Lec or Vet. But he has, so far, performed better than them this season. He hasn't crashed out of races/qualifying sessions, he is constantly challenging faster midfield cars and getting results. So, yeah Kimi has done better job than them this season but that doesn't make him the worst driver on the grid. Or Gasly the worst driver on the grid even though he has been performing as one. Heck, even in 2014 Kimi was probably the worst performing driver but that doesn't mean he was the worst driver. See the difference? This topic still is, about season performance, not about the absolute "who's the best". It's quite obvious that the drivers on the best cars are the best drivers.

 

Great point, I agree on the better driver vs better performing driver explanation. I do think though that based on how Vettel still beat Kimi despite his boatload of mistakes in 2018, gives me the feeling that this year, with Vettel doing relatively less mistakes, would easily outperform Kimi as well. He'd have to have a very very shocking season for me to consider otherwise. If Kimi finishes P8 in an Alfa, sure that's great, good job, but I'd always believe that Vettel in a lot of races (sure, not all) put that 20 seconds and 1 or 2 places higher up, because that's what years and years of comparisons have told me.



#71 shure

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:51

Great point, I agree on the better driver vs better performing driver explanation. I do think though that based on how Vettel still beat Kimi despite his boatload of mistakes in 2018, gives me the feeling that this year, with Vettel doing relatively less mistakes, would easily outperform Kimi as well. He'd have to have a very very shocking season for me to consider otherwise. If Kimi finishes P8 in an Alfa, sure that's great, good job, but I'd always believe that Vettel in a lot of races (sure, not all) put that 20 seconds and 1 or 2 places higher up, because that's what years and years of comparisons have told me.

Yes I'd agree.  Bottom line is that it's hard to conclude that Kimi is getting the maximum of what the car is capable of, so as good as he appears to be doing you'd have to imagine that e.g. Vettel would be doing significantly better and AR would probably be beating Renault in the WCC by now and maybe even knocking on TR's door



#72 barzini

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:51

Great point, I agree on the better driver vs better performing driver explanation. I do think though that based on how Vettel still beat Kimi despite his boatload of mistakes in 2018, gives me the feeling that this year, with Vettel doing relatively less mistakes, would easily outperform Kimi as well. He'd have to have a very very shocking season for me to consider otherwise. If Kimi finishes P8 in an Alfa, sure that's great, good job, but I'd always believe that Vettel in a lot of races (sure, not all) put that 20 seconds and 1 or 2 places higher up, because that's what years and years of comparisons have told me.

Which he usually gained by a better strategy, which in Alfa is always given to Kimi given that he is superior against Giovinazzi. Anyways, in order to finish +20secs in front of Kimi in an Alfa would mean that Seb would have to win McLarens in every race - I doubt that would happen. If Seb and Kimi were teammates I guess Seb would finish where Kimi is finishing now (maybe some races he would've scored more points - Canada, Monaco etc.) And Kimi would most likely be down the road due to being slower in quali and getting worst strategy. But then again, Kimi is far more better on wheel-to-wheel action compared to Vettel and in midfield you get a lot of that. I suppose Vettel would have some incidents by now if he was driving an Alfa.

Bottom line is, being the faster driver of the team helps. The team listens you more, backs you up and gives you the "plan A" strategy. We've seen this many times. Kimi' second halves of seasons 07,09 compared to 08. And Vettel 14 vs. basically every other season his had.
Is Kimi better driver than Seb? No, otherwise he would kept his seat with Ferrari.
Can Kimi perform at the high level in a correct environment? Clearly, as seen this season.

Racing in a midfield team is a whole different world than in the top. There are more teams out there, consistency is the king. It doesn't matter if you are blindingly fast but error prone. You will have couple of super races but in other races you are stuck with behind other midfielders. Let's for example look at Danny Ric. He has got a couple of very nice races this season and showed his superiority against other midfielders. But a lot of bad performances which has resulted with 0 points. If he was on a RedBull, bad performance meant that he qualified 6th and would still have chance of a recovery. In a midfield that's Q1 elimination and no chance for a recovery. That's why Kimi is ahead, doesn't rock the world but keeps his nose clean and gather points. Sure, someone could be faster than him but there are not many midfield drivers who are faster AND more reliable than Räikkönen. Those guys are driving top cars.

Edited by barzini, 04 August 2019 - 20:53.


#73 Zilbert

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:51

Great point, I agree on the better driver vs better performing driver explanation. I do think though that based on how Vettel still beat Kimi despite his boatload of mistakes in 2018, gives me the feeling that this year, with Vettel doing relatively less mistakes, would easily outperform Kimi as well. He'd have to have a very very shocking season for me to consider otherwise. If Kimi finishes P8 in an Alfa, sure that's great, good job, but I'd always believe that Vettel in a lot of races (sure, not all) put that 20 seconds and 1 or 2 places higher up, because that's what years and years of comparisons have told me.

The gap between Kimi and Vettel fluctuated across the years. Sure, Vettel always came out on top, but '16 was really close and '18 was closer then some people make it out to be. It's easy to point out Vettel's mistakes and how many points he lost, but Kimi also made couple of mistakes (mostly in quali)  which left him uncompensated for the pace he had (in addition to points lost through unreliability). 



#74 shure

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 20:55

Which he usually gained by a better strategy, 

I don't think that's true.  A couple of times yes,  but usually?  Vettel was vastly superior to Kimi most of the time



#75 barzini

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 21:02

I don't think that's true.  A couple of times yes,  but usually?  Vettel was vastly superior to Kimi most of the time

 

Usually when Seb finished +20 secs ahead of Kimi was down to 3 thing:

- better quali

- better racepace

- better strategy

 

Losing to your teammate by 20 second means that on average you are 0.3 seconds slower than your teammate. If that was on pure pace, Kimi would've been sacked midseason years ago.



#76 shure

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 21:19

Usually when Seb finished +20 secs ahead of Kimi was down to 3 thing:

- better quali

- better racepace

- better strategy

 

Losing to your teammate by 20 second means that on average you are 0.3 seconds slower than your teammate. If that was on pure pace, Kimi would've been sacked midseason years ago.

It often was on pure pace.  Kimi had his moments but quite often was average and Vettel was significantly quicker than him.



#77 Ultraviolet

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 21:29

Hamilton has won 8/12 and is leading the WDC by a country mile.

I would need to commit myself to a looney asylum if I even dreamt of him not being in first place.

 

Even as a Hamilton fan, I can see the case for putting Verstappen ahead. Hamilton has been beaten by his team-mate in qualifying and the race more than once, and had an awful race in Germany. I cannot recall Verstappen having any bad races or any significant mistakes.

 

It's really close between the two of them. Anyone putting anyone else number one really is in need of the asylum. But as between those two, either way round is justifiable.



#78 noriaki

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 21:48

So you use Vettel's history in your decision to rank Leclerc higher than him, yet I'm not allowed to bring up Kimi's 2018 season? That's a bit ironic.

 

Because you know, that's precisely why I don't see how you could rate Kimi higher than Vettel or Leclerc. Because Kimi's history shows he's never been close to Vettel, while Leclerc is. Yet you rate Kimi above both now.

 

Then again you contradict yourself by ranking Sainz as 3rd whereas you put both Renault drivers in bottom 10. Despite that Hulkenberg was comfortably faster than the Spaniard with the Renault last season...

 

Performance wise, I think this season plays into Kimi's main strength more than the Ferrari years, which at the current stage of his career is not doing stupid ****. Yeah, quite obviously he isn't close to Vettel when it comes to ultimate pace, and he would have received another beating had Ferrari kept him - but then again, imagine Vettel in the Alfa Romeo then, having to negotiate the Haas drivers wheel to wheel every race...

 

In fact Kimi and Sainz are quite similar really. If Sainz (or Kimi) were paired with Hulkenberg or Ricciardo in the McLaren, I think Hulk/Danny Ric would come out on top in that battle, because the McLaren's the class of the midfield and with their ultimate qualifying speed, they could relatively consistently qualify ahead of their team-mate on P6 or P7 and mainly be concerned of battling Gasly in the races. But alas, they are not with McLaren but with Renault instead, and that's why they have to negotiate midfield melee and nail the execution of their strategy every race regardless of the 10 moving elements in shape of erratic rival cars. Which isn't particularly Hulk and DR's strength, but it's exactly where Kimi and Sainz (and normally even Perez) excel at.

 

So that's why Hulk and DR are performing worse than Sainz and Kimi now. Because they're not in their comfort zone. 



#79 KeithD68

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 22:05

Even as a Hamilton fan, I can see the case for putting Verstappen ahead. Hamilton has been beaten by his team-mate in qualifying and the race more than once, and had an awful race in Germany. I cannot recall Verstappen having any bad races or any significant mistakes.

 

It's really close between the two of them. Anyone putting anyone else number one really is in need of the asylum. But as between those two, either way round is justifiable.

 

Was Germany all Hamilton's fault?  He asked the team 'are you sure?' when given the softs that he spun on.  Max had spun on his softs moments earlier which seems to be conveniently forgotten.  Was the team not pitting him under the safety car also his fault?

 

As for Verstappen mistakes, the spin in Germany, binning the car in the wall in Austria practice, and the start (I think?) in Austria immediately jump to mind.  I'm sure I could find a few more if I looked.



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#80 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 00:01

It often was on pure pace. Kimi had his moments but quite often was average and Vettel was significantly quicker than him.


2015 and 2017 for sure Seb was clearly ahead. 2016 and 2018 it was a lot closer, for example 2018 races went 8-8 when both finished the races and the gap between them in races was over 20 seconds 5 times (from those Kimi finished in front 3 times and Seb 2 times).

#81 Atreiu

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 00:38

I don't think I can build a fair list, but I can make some comments.

 

- I'm posivitely impressed by Raikkonen. I expected him to cash it in and be anonymous, but he has been driving quite well.

- This has not been a great season for Vettel, but he still is the best Ferrari driver. Leclerc benefits from not being under the same scrutiny as a 4 WDC, but the truth is he makes too many mistakes and still has to improve his racecraft. Ferrari has let them both down on separate occasions.

- Hamilton has a a very tough job convincing others he's the best because the side effects of his dominance are unrealistic expectations and skepticism of the doubters. Irregardless, his driving has been terrific and worthy of a record breaker multi WDC.



#82 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 00:47

Leclerc has made silly errors in Baku and Hockenheim, so that counters Vettel's errors. So I don't see how Vettel is behind there just because his pace on Saturdays isn't that strong. It's about Sundays and there Vettel's pace has been better except for a few races like Bahrain. Hungary is a well defining example of this season as far as Ferrari drivers go. If Leclerc was that good he'd have found a way to keep Vettel behind him on days like today.

Perhaps people are using context and expected more from Vettel and, given he's just moved there, not quite as much from Leclerc? I think if you'd said by this stage that Leclerc would only be 20 odd points behind Vettel, have two poles, a string of podiums and 1 dominant win robbed from him, in a car thats generally been mediocre, well we'd all have classified that pretty good from the young lad in his second season.

Perhaps, just maybe, posters expected Vettel to comfortably have Leclerc in his pocket at this stage... with Charles coming on strong past the halfway mark? I know I originally did and Charles has well exceeded that, whereas for Vettel it's just much the same we've come to expect from him and not always in a good way.

The Hungary race was absolutely a good indicator. The kid outqualified Vettel and finished a few seconds behind. It's been that close all season, with moments where Charles has shown his raw potential and high ceiling by leaving Seb well behind, such as Bahrain, Paul Ricard etc and the times he's outqualified him by more than 0.5 secs.

Second half of the season should be a treat.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 05 August 2019 - 01:04.


#83 messy

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 01:12

1. Verstappen.
Hard to fault. Has led the team brilliantly, destroyed his team-mate in virtually every session across the season so far, raced with confidence and when the car hasn’t been capable of winning he’s banked the maximum points - every sniff he’s had of victory, he’s delivered - aside, arguably, yesterday in Hungary. He’s edged Hamilton this season by a distance, for me. He’s brilliant.
2. Hamilton
For me, impressive but not his best season. He’s found himself with a virtual free pass for a sixth WDC from the start, found life tough from Bottas early on in the season, has delivered some absolute virtuoso performances (Monaco, Hungary), but also got extremely lucky at times and made hay while Ferrari have offered such a weak challenge. Strong but not at the heights of 2018 quite yet.
3. Sainz
Given the tough job of replacing Fernando Alonso, has slotted straight into his seat and excelled by doing a very passable impersonation of Fernando Alonso. By that I mean that he’s willed results out of the car, absolutely maximised his score weekend after weekend (after a highly unlucky run at the start) and won Class B on days where he really shouldn’t have. In qualifying he’s been run very close by Lando Norris, but over the race he’s tended to be the stronger and he’s showing a level of performance that makes me wish he was in a Red Bull instead.
4. Räikkönen
Seriously. He’s leading the team, he’s adjusted very quickly to his new surroundings and similar to above he’s maximising his results with a relentless consistency. If the car’s struggling, he’s banking a point or two, if it’s having a good weekend he’s up there fighting right at the sharp end of Class B. Reckon the Alfa is maybe seventh or eighth best car and so far he’s second best in midfield, and he’s really giving Giovinazzi a bit of a lesson too, which when you consider how decent Giovinazzi is (not to mention 15 years younger than him), is pretty good.
5. Vettel
Unflashy results, still no win (though he obviously won on the road in Canada), being pushed by Leclerc and not always the clear fastest Ferrari this year, but actually on the quiet he’s driven very well. Still the odd high profile blunder but actually I reckon the error rate has gone down quite a bit this season and he’s handling Leclerc’s pace well. Will surely stand a good chance at Spa and Monza.
6. Leclerc
Impressed with his speed, some weekends (Bahrain, Baku) he’s just looked superb, able to pull speed out of that wet fart of a Ferrari where Vettel can’t, and Ferrari’s clear victory threat on those weekends. Bahrain was heartbreaking and completely not his fault, but otherwise I think he’s made too many mistakes, particularly in qualifying, and lost two or three potential wins. Clear potential, but uneven so far.
7. Russell
Absolutely destroyed his team-mate on raw speed and even moreso on race pace, dragging some really credible performances out of a car that seems to have the speed only for the back row of the grid. Hasn’t complained, kept his head down and produced some quality drives like Monaco and Hungary. Seems to struggle off the line and usually behind Kubica in the early laps, but has routinely got ahead and then just left him standing. Completely wasted driving such a slow car.
8. Bottas
Started the season looking great, Melbourne performance was supreme and over the first four or five races it looked like he might be able to do a Rosberg on Lewis with a following wind. But nah. He’s slipped back into his usual stuff, not forceful enough in the races, pace fluctuating too much losing crucial time around pit stops and getting jumped, plodding round with none of the fire you’re getting from Hamilton. I think he’s quite possibly about to lose his drive for 2020 and I don’t think you can say he hasn’t been given a fair crack.
9. Ricciardo
Has dropped into a new team and found that they’re struggling rather more than people expected, are no longer the strongest midfield team and are having all kinds of mechanical issues..,.and he’s had some truly rotten weekends. But he’s shown his quality too, outpacing his team-mate and maybe finally putting an end to the Hulkenberg legend “would be winning races in the right car”. It’s an unpromising situation and I’m sure he’s properly fed up about it, but he’s driving well.
10. Norris
Probably deserves to be higher, actually. His qualifying performances have been really, really good and he’s shown himself capable of one-lap speed not even Sainz can match up to which is impressive for someone so young. Loses points because his races, so far, just haven’t quite matched up to that, and he’s usually second best McLaren by a distance on a Sunday.

11. Kvyat - redemption
12. Albon - quietly promising
13. Hulkenberg - myth busted a bit
14. Perez - falling flat
15. Magnussen - fluctuating wildly
16. Giovinazzi - better that his results
17. Grosjean - mr 6/10
18. Stroll - waste of that seat
19. Gasly - pathetic
20. Kubica - still not up to scratch.

#84 HP

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 01:39

Not saying youre wrong about 1 & 2 but .... it's a bit surprising that that a guy who has won 8 out of 12 races so far is not first in your eyes ....

 

Edit: and who was second in half the races he didnt win .... and was so successful in the first 8 races that respected pundits were declaring not just the the season over, but the entire sport dead .... because he was so successful he was making it "boring" and "killing the sport". 

 

.....did he really perform so badly in the next 4 races??   after all he did win 2 of them... and in fairly extraordinary fashion. 

 

Its like you have to downplay LH's achievements to be a serious analyst .... Max said, "a number of other drivers could do the same - in that car" - and it seems like this is a popular view..... how else do you explain a very credible poster doing anything but considering the guy who won 8 out of 12 races as best driver of the season so far .... you'd figure that just the weight of the statistics would force this conclusion ... but it seems that the incredible stats are taken to mean that somehow LH has it too easy and its not down to his peformance .... as MV said - other drivers could do the same.

 

Consider how most of us have considered Alonso in the top 3 for most of the time, even if the cars he was driving were a POS then it's hardly surprising that Verstappen is seen as ahead of Hamilton.



#85 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 02:05

Perhaps people are using context and expected more from Vettel and, given he's just moved there, not quite as much from Leclerc? I think if you'd said by this stage that Leclerc would only be 20 odd points behind Vettel, have two poles, a string of podiums and 1 dominant win robbed from him, in a car thats generally been mediocre, well we'd all have classified that pretty good from the young lad in his second season.

Perhaps, just maybe, posters expected Vettel to comfortably have Leclerc in his pocket at this stage... with Charles coming on strong past the halfway mark? I know I originally did and Charles has well exceeded that, whereas for Vettel it's just much the same we've come to expect from him and not always in a good way.

The Hungary race was absolutely a good indicator. The kid outqualified Vettel and finished a few seconds behind. It's been that close all season, with moments where Charles has shown his raw potential and high ceiling by leaving Seb well behind, such as Bahrain, Paul Ricard etc and the times he's outqualified him by more than 0.5 secs.

Second half of the season should be a treat.


But look at the context. Leclerc has had the opportunity to pick up multiple wins and he’s often put it in the wall at the first opportunity. Championship would be completely different if he didn’t crash at Baku and Hockenheim. He should’ve done better at Monaco and Austria as well.

#86 WelshSwan

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 02:44

Well nobody knows how good that Sauber really is, so we each see what we want to see in that. 

 

But it's interesting to say the least that after 6 years Kimi is by some suddenly mentioned as a top 4 driver again. I just don't believe it. Especially since he's almost 40. He's definitely making the most out of what he can achieve in that Alfa, but I've seen him being slow in the past 5 years so often that I'm sure there's a lot more to get out of that car.

 

That's doing Kimi a huge disservice. Have a listen to Beat Zehnder's interview on Youtube where he says just how much work Kimi has put in on this car and how much of an impact his technical feedback has given them. BUT no doubt Vettel and co would so so much better and would have made the Alfa a Championship winning car by now.  :stoned:



#87 Radion

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:18

Vettel can't be third on those lists simply because of his mistakes.

Spun in Bahrain
Went off in Canada
Crashed verstappen out in GB

So it could well be argued that Sainz or Kimi have been performing better and maximised their potential when it was offered to them more regularly than vettel.

Btw, we don't know how well those Ferraris were in the last couple of years as well. Vettel only had Kimi as a teammate. Riccardo already beat vettel at RB. Could very well be that I'm his hands the wdc especially last year would have been a walk over... 😉

Edited by Radion, 05 August 2019 - 04:20.


#88 WelshSwan

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:40

Vettel can't be third on those lists simply because of his mistakes.

Spun in Bahrain
Went off in Canada
Crashed verstappen out in GB

So it could well be argued that Sainz or Kimi have been performing better and maximised their potential when it was offered to them more regularly than vettel.

Btw, we don't know how well those Ferraris were in the last couple of years as well. Vettel only had Kimi as a teammate. Riccardo already beat vettel at RB. Could very well be that I'm his hands the wdc especially last year would have been a walk over...

 

With Hamilton or Verstappen in the Ferrari they would have had the WDC last year imo.



#89 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 05:32

Perhaps people are using context and expected more from Vettel and, given he's just moved there, not quite as much from Leclerc? I think if you'd said by this stage that Leclerc would only be 20 odd points behind Vettel, have two poles, a string of podiums and 1 dominant win robbed from him, in a car thats generally been mediocre, well we'd all have classified that pretty good from the young lad in his second season.

Perhaps, just maybe, posters expected Vettel to comfortably have Leclerc in his pocket at this stage... with Charles coming on strong past the halfway mark? I know I originally did and Charles has well exceeded that, whereas for Vettel it's just much the same we've come to expect from him and not always in a good way.

The Hungary race was absolutely a good indicator. The kid outqualified Vettel and finished a few seconds behind. It's been that close all season, with moments where Charles has shown his raw potential and high ceiling by leaving Seb well behind, such as Bahrain, Paul Ricard etc and the times he's outqualified him by more than 0.5 secs.

Second half of the season should be a treat.

 

I'm pretty sure the idea behind this thread was ranking the drivers in the context of how well they performed, not in the context of what expectations you had of them and whether or not they matched those expectations. 



#90 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 05:36

That's doing Kimi a huge disservice. Have a listen to Beat s interview on Youtube where he says just how much work Kimi has put in on this car and how much of an impact his technical feedback has given them. BUT no doubt Vettel and co would so so much better and would have made the Alfa a Championship winning car by now.  :stoned:

 

How is saying that we don't know how good the Sauber really is doing Kimi a huge disservice?  :stoned:

Because we don't, right. We don't know how good any car really is. We get indications based on how the drivers do, but that's just an indication.

 

If I want to believe the Sauber is x good, while another poster wants to believe it's y good, then I'm not going to discuss that to death in here. That's what I meant in that post.



#91 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 05:38

Vettel can't be third on those lists simply because of his mistakes.

Spun in Bahrain
Went off in Canada
Crashed verstappen out in GB

So it could well be argued that Sainz or Kimi have been performing better and maximised their potential when it was offered to them more regularly than vettel.

 

Vettel's 2018 mistake list was 3 times longer yet Kimi still wasn't performing better.

 

Mistakes might be very visible but a lack of pace isn't, especially when your teammate is a rookie.

 

So I think it's difficult to argue that Kimi has done better.

 

Sainz is a different question, because he hasn't been handily beaten by Vettel for 4 years as teammates.



#92 Laminar

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 05:45

Not saying youre wrong about 1 & 2 but .... it's a bit surprising that that a guy who has won 8 out of 12 races so far is not first in your eyes ....

 

Edit: and who was second in half the races he didnt win .... and was so successful in the first 8 races that respected pundits were declaring not just the the season over, but the entire sport dead .... because he was so successful he was making it "boring" and "killing the sport". 

 

.....did he really perform so badly in the next 4 races??   after all he did win 2 of them... and in fairly extraordinary fashion. 

 

Its like you have to downplay LH's achievements to be a serious analyst .... Max said, "a number of other drivers could do the same - in that car" - and it seems like this is a popular view..... how else do you explain a very credible poster doing anything but considering the guy who won 8 out of 12 races as best driver of the season so far .... you'd figure that just the weight of the statistics would force this conclusion ... but it seems that the incredible stats are taken to mean that somehow LH has it too easy and its not down to his peformance .... as MV said - other drivers could do the same.

 

Lewis has been out qualified by his team mate 5 times? and lost 2 race wins to him, so relative to team mates hes performed objectively worse. He has won 8 races but has the best car and historically drivers doing magic in lesser cars have often been rated ahead in similar situations like Schumacher in 96, so I don't have a problem with him being number 1.



#93 JeePee

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 05:59

Just wondering if you used to use the same criteria for Verstappen in previous seasons? Hmmm

For the first half of 2018? Oh yes. I wouldn't put him in my top 10 even. But I can't recall more seasonin where Verstappen was crashing on his own like Charles does this year.



#94 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:03

Vettel's 2018 mistake list was 3 times longer yet Kimi still wasn't performing better.

Mistakes might be very visible but a lack of pace isn't, especially when your teammate is a rookie.

So I think it's difficult to argue that Kimi has done better.

Sainz is a different question, because he hasn't been handily beaten by Vettel for 4 years as teammates.


Vettel still drove well overally despitate the mistakes. Kimi had 4 retirements, not fault of his own and because of one them he had to use old PU spec for 10-11 weekends, while Vettel had new one.

#95 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:05

Then again you contradict yourself by ranking Sainz as 3rd whereas you put both Renault drivers in bottom 10. Despite that Hulkenberg was comfortably faster than the Spaniard with the Renault last season...

 

Performance wise, I think this season plays into Kimi's main strength more than the Ferrari years, which at the current stage of his career is not doing stupid ****. Yeah, quite obviously he isn't close to Vettel when it comes to ultimate pace, and he would have received another beating had Ferrari kept him - but then again, imagine Vettel in the Alfa Romeo then, having to negotiate the Haas drivers wheel to wheel every race...

 

In fact Kimi and Sainz are quite similar really. If Sainz (or Kimi) were paired with Hulkenberg or Ricciardo in the McLaren, I think Hulk/Danny Ric would come out on top in that battle, because the McLaren's the class of the midfield and with their ultimate qualifying speed, they could relatively consistently qualify ahead of their team-mate on P6 or P7 and mainly be concerned of battling Gasly in the races. But alas, they are not with McLaren but with Renault instead, and that's why they have to negotiate midfield melee and nail the execution of their strategy every race regardless of the 10 moving elements in shape of erratic rival cars. Which isn't particularly Hulk and DR's strength, but it's exactly where Kimi and Sainz (and normally even Perez) excel at.

 

So that's why Hulk and DR are performing worse than Sainz and Kimi now. Because they're not in their comfort zone. 

 

Ah but now you've walked into my trap, because I rated Sainz higher than Hulkenberg last year. So if they'd be paired up at McLaren now, I'd expect Sainz to beat Hulkenberg, especially as it would've been a new environment for both and not just Sainz (as was the case at Renault)

 

Ricciardo I would expect to get the better of Sainz (not by much) but he made a lot of critical errors this year (Melbourne, Baku, France) that he wouldn't have made at Red Bull. That's why his stock has fallen for me and ranked only 11th.

 

Mind, the midfield in my list is close, just like the real midfield, and the removal of 1 bad error by a driver can easily mean going up several places.

 

So yes I agree with you that Hulk and DR are not in an easy position, but while I do try to counter that in my ranking it's simply not easy to do. Drivers with better cars can simply impress more often, that's just how it is. 



#96 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:07

Vettel still drove well overally despitate the mistakes. Kimi had 4 retirements, not fault of his own and because of one them he had to use old PU spec for 10-11 weekends, while Vettel had new one.

 

And he's also driving well now. Just that Leclerc is keeping him a bit more honest in pace than Kimi did, which is why people might perhaps think Vettel isn't as impressive. In reality he's got a new teammate that's quicker than the previous one.



#97 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:08

The gap between Kimi and Vettel fluctuated across the years. Sure, Vettel always came out on top, but '16 was really close and '18 was closer then some people make it out to be. It's easy to point out Vettel's mistakes and how many points he lost, but Kimi also made couple of mistakes (mostly in quali)  which left him uncompensated for the pace he had (in addition to points lost through unreliability). 

 

Yeah that was my point though. I didn't point out Vettel's mistakes to say how many points he lost, I pointed them out to say that despite of those mistakes he still outscored Kimi, even when taking unreliability into account. 



#98 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:17

And he's also driving well now. Just that Leclerc is keeping him a bit more honest in pace than Kimi did, which is why people might perhaps think Vettel isn't as impressive. In reality he's got a new teammate that's quicker than the previous one.


Perhaps, but I don't find Vettel performing as well as he did, the car clearly doesn't suit him as well as last few seasons. He is doing fine in racepace, but his qualifyings are far away from his bests.

Edited by Vesuvius, 05 August 2019 - 06:18.


#99 lightstoflag

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:49

  This juncture in time in the sport is starting to feel reminiscent of pre-Imola 1994 with Verstappen and Hamilton as Schumacher and Senna respectively. The difference is the joker in the deck that the reintroduction of refueling proved for the competitive order in '94. All of a sudden, Schumacher became a still more formidable opponent to contend with because in the new regime his fast laptimes were more safely reproducible than Senna's (who had to flirt with error to drive that consistently fast). I'll flat out say that under refueling Schumacher was a better grand prix driver than Senna and also that he is worse than Senna, Hamilton, Prost, and perhaps one or two others under non-refueling regulations. Senna had gotten to watch Schumacher's maturation from 1991 on with just as close an eye as Lewis has had on Max from 2015 on, and even in 1993 he had asserted his superiority after being served notice from the upstart in 1992. But under refueling he was constantly under threat to lose his lead by the end of a race despite having gotten pole. I think the character of 1994's early races would be only partly changed because of the Williams's later handling improvements if Senna had lived.

 

 The task Verstappen has is what Schumacher would have had in dethroning Senna if refueling hadn't come back. A plus for him though is that he is at worst even with Lewis over one lap whereas Senna was clearly faster than Schumacher in qualifying and would have really made that count in his favor under non-refueling regs. Part of the reason Seb and Lewis still have such a marked race pace advantage over the rest of the field barring Max is that they are hybrid babies (as it were) who raced enough years under refueling (and under the use of robust control tyres) to have that shape the core of their approach to driving a race stint, and can bring that nous to the current era without detriment. 



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#100 Eff1

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:50

Summer break, you know how this goes

My ranking

1. Verstappen = Certainly Gasly's performance is flattering him a bit and mistakes get more unnoticed than for many others (especially in qualifying). Nonetheless he only had more minor incidents and nothing major, even if it was close at times and even if it still needs others to play along sometimes. Very consistent beyond that and has adapted a more efficient style in wheel-to-wheel battles. Spielberg was the highlight performance.
2. Hamilton = I had him until Spielberg marginally in first, His weekend there was a tad unfortunate and just minor things such as Mercedes strict policy prevented him from clean sweeping all Mercedes wins this season. His quali pace was in the first few races a bit under his potential, but since Monaco he is improved but not as good as he probably can. Always strong on race day, his Germany performance prevented him entirely from having a shot at first. He and Max are clearly the class of the field in the last 12 months, as today showed again.
3. Sainz = Place 3-6 in this ranking are pretty close. Has to improve in qualifying against his strong rookie team mate, although the quali score is not entirely representative due to outside factors. Very strong form on race day. However, his place in this ranking is a bit misleading: while his performance was very good, his ranking is mostly down to drivers with higher potential not consistenly delivering good enough so far. I also suspect that the low expectations set on McLaren flatter both him and his team mate a bit, but this takes nothing away from his great performance.

4. Vettel = I still see Vettel as the stronger Ferrari driver over the first 12 races, even if recently Leclerc surpassed him. His race pace is impressive as always, even now after Leclerc's turnaround. Too many off performances in qualifying recently, and it even felt earlier in the season like Leclerc already had the pace to beat him there. Also too many mistakes again. In his defense there werent many scenarios where he could really shine (in fact the only one was Germany which was more a solid performance), which may emphasize his lows more than usual probably
5. Leclerc = Super quick over one lap. Has also improved his performance on race day recently, but probably not enough. And has suffered probably more under Ferrari's strategy debacle than his team mate. However, overdrives too much which led to him not taking full use of his potential in qualifying and to two race-ending crashes. But the trend is overall in his favour.
6. Bottas = Very strong qualifier, as always. But nowhere near to other top drivers on race day. Doesnt do many mistakes though. Often unfairly criticised, I think only few drivers would do better, but he doesnt have "it".
7. Norris = Very impressive one lap performance. Extremely mature racer, manages to stay away from all the trouble in the midfield battles. His race pace is what needs the most work, though.
8. Russell = It's very difficult to rate him and there is every chance that he is rated way too low or way too high, but his performance in Budapest is the last prove that he belongs into the top 10.
9. Raikkonen = His clean racing style is very suited to the madness in the midfield. Very consistent, but Giovinazzi is starting to get there pace-wise over one lap at least.
10. Ricciardo = Has done quite a few silly mistakes so far, but has also shown some great performances. Having a strong qualifier like Hulkenberg under control like this in his first season in this team shows his class.


11. Hulkenberg
12. Perez
13. Kvyat
14. Albon
15. Magnussen
16. Stroll
17. Giovinazzi
18. Grosjean
19. Gasly
20. Kubica
Feel free to share yours :up:


I don’t need to post my own, I agree with this pretty much.
If I’m being pedantic I would swap Perez with Hulkenberg and possibly demote Sainz to 5th (behind the Ferrari drivers)....but that’s just minor details.