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2019 Mid-Season Driver Rankings


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#101 Jovanotti

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:53

A plus for him though is that he is at worst even with Lewis over one lap

How did you reach that conclusion?

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#102 lightstoflag

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:56

How did you reach that conclusion?

Just a rough calculus after watching them for several years. I think it's plus minus a tenth either way and it's always better to be charitable in a forum!



#103 noriaki

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:56

Ah but now you've walked into my trap, because I rated Sainz higher than Hulkenberg last year. So if they'd be paired up at McLaren now, I'd expect Sainz to beat Hulkenberg, especially as it would've been a new environment for both and not just Sainz (as was the case at Renault)

Ricciardo I would expect to get the better of Sainz (not by much) but he made a lot of critical errors this year (Melbourne, Baku, France) that he wouldn't have made at Red Bull. That's why his stock has fallen for me and ranked only 11th.

Mind, the midfield in my list is close, just like the real midfield, and the removal of 1 bad error by a driver can easily mean going up several places.

So yes I agree with you that Hulk and DR are not in an easy position, but while I do try to counter that in my ranking it's simply not easy to do. Drivers with better cars can simply impress more often, that's just how it is.


Rating Sainz higher than Hulkenberg last year? On what grounds? Lost quali 6-11 or so and race finishes 4-8. He wasn't all that much newer to Renault than Hulkenberg was either. Carlos already had the end of 2017 for adjustment.

#104 intelligentsia

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:18

Well nobody knows how good that Sauber really is, so we each see what we want to see in that. 

 

But it's interesting to say the least that after 6 years Kimi is by some suddenly mentioned as a top 4 driver again. I just don't believe it. Especially since he's almost 40. He's definitely making the most out of what he can achieve in that Alfa, but I've seen him being slow in the past 5 years so often that I'm sure there's a lot more to get out of that car.

 

The biggest mistake has made all year during this season, was when he drove wide at Hockenheim, and lost about 4.5 seconds. Alfa has obviously prioritized Kimi within the team, the car is not the fastest in the midfield. At Ferrari Kimi was always the second driver. He had 4 retirements last season, and none of them were his fault. Vettel didn't have one technical problem, Kimi drove most of last season with an outdated engine. It wasn't just technical problems, there was also strategical decisions in qualifying, during Hungry and Spa, and then there is also the usual Ferrari strategical ineptness. 


Edited by intelligentsia, 05 August 2019 - 07:19.


#105 Jovanotti

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:24

Well nobody knows how good that Sauber really is, so we each see what we want to see in that.

Very often, as soon as Kimi steps in a car, it suddenly becomes much better in people's perception. Happens this year, but also happened with Lotus, Ferrari in the latter half of 2009 or even his McLaren's back in the 00's.

Edited by Jovanotti, 05 August 2019 - 07:25.


#106 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:25

Rating Sainz higher than Hulkenberg last year? On what grounds? Lost quali 6-11 or so and race finishes 4-8. He wasn't all that much newer to Renault than Hulkenberg was either. Carlos already had the end of 2017 for adjustment.

Good point about Sainz being there earlier!

On the rating, personally I don't look at head to head statistics too much as I feel they tend to mislead. I look at who left how good of an impression to me over the weekend where the aim is to score the most points possible. In that, Sainz just edged Hulkenberg for me last year. I don't have the details at hand now sadly as I am at work.

#107 Trust

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:37

The most suprising stuff about Kimi for me is his starts and first laps now in Sauber compared to Ferrari days. He's just more agressive and has more pace and gets to win some places or defend better in first laps. Remember last year in Ferrari? He would always lose something and never gain for the whole season until Austin. He would always lack some pace on start and opening laps and then settle with his pace from the 3rd lap. It was very strange, but now I can't see that.



#108 FirstWatt

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:50

Summer break, you know how this goes 

My ranking
 

1. Verstappen = Certainly Gasly's performance is flattering him a bit and mistakes get more unnoticed than for many others (especially in qualifying). Nonetheless he only had more minor incidents and nothing major, even if it was close at times and even if it still needs others to play along sometimes. Very consistent beyond that and has adapted a more efficient style in wheel-to-wheel battles. Spielberg was the highlight performance.
2. Hamilton = I had him until Spielberg marginally in first, His weekend there was a tad unfortunate and just minor things such as Mercedes strict policy prevented him from clean sweeping all Mercedes wins this season. His quali pace was in the first few races a bit under his potential, but since Monaco he is improved but not as good as he probably can. Always strong on race day, his Germany performance prevented him entirely from having a shot at first. He and Max are clearly the class of the field in the last 12 months, as today showed again.
3. Sainz = Place 3-6 in this ranking are pretty close. Has to improve in qualifying against his strong rookie team mate, although the quali score is not entirely representative due to outside factors. Very strong form on race day. However, his place in this ranking is a bit misleading: while his performance was very good, his ranking is mostly down to drivers with higher potential not consistenly delivering good enough so far. I also suspect that the low expectations set on McLaren flatter both him and his team mate a bit, but this takes nothing away from his great performance.
4. Vettel = I still see Vettel as the stronger Ferrari driver over the first 12 races, even if recently Leclerc surpassed him. His race pace is impressive as always, even now after Leclerc's turnaround. Too many off performances in qualifying recently, and it even felt earlier in the season like Leclerc already had the pace to beat him there. Also too many mistakes again. In his defense there werent many scenarios where he could really shine (in fact the only one was Germany which was more a solid performance), which may emphasize his lows more than usual probably 
5. Leclerc = Super quick over one lap. Has also improved his performance on race day recently, but probably not enough. And has suffered probably more under Ferrari's strategy debacle than his team mate. However, overdrives too much which led to him not taking full use of his potential in qualifying and to two race-ending crashes. But the trend is overall in his favour.
6. Bottas = Very strong qualifier, as always. But nowhere near to other top drivers on race day. Doesnt do many mistakes though. Often unfairly criticised, I think only few drivers would do better, but he doesnt have "it".
7. Norris = Very impressive one lap performance. Extremely mature racer, manages to stay away from all the trouble in the midfield battles. His race pace is what needs the most work, though.
8. Russell = It's very difficult to rate him and there is every chance that he is rated way too low or way too high, but his performance in Budapest is the last prove that he belongs into the top 10.
9. Raikkonen = His clean racing style is very suited to the madness in the midfield. Very consistent, but Giovinazzi is starting to get there pace-wise over one lap at least.
10. Ricciardo = Has done quite a few silly mistakes so far, but has also shown some great performances. Having a strong qualifier like Hulkenberg under control like this in his first season in this team shows his class.

11. Hulkenberg
12. Perez
13. Kvyat
14. Albon
15. Magnussen
16. Stroll
17. Giovinazzi
18. Grosjean
19. Gasly
20. Kubica

Feel free to share yours  :up:

 

Agree mostly, also with the comments. Maybe I would place Kimi somewhat higher, as you seem to give some more weight to race performance vs qualifying, but the midfield and its erratic car performances depending on track, temperature and moon phase (or can we say tires?) makes fair judgement really difficult.


Edited by FirstWatt, 05 August 2019 - 07:51.


#109 messy

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:18

Good point about Sainz being there earlier!
On the rating, personally I don't look at head to head statistics too much as I feel they tend to mislead. I look at who left how good of an impression to me over the weekend where the aim is to score the most points possible. In that, Sainz just edged Hulkenberg for me last year. I don't have the details at hand now sadly as I am at work.


I agree actually. Regardless of the stats I thought Sainz did very well at Renault last year and on the face of it I’d have given him the edge over Hulkenberg - maybe not objectively for 2018 alone, but on potential. I think Sainz is very underrated.

#110 sopa

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:26

I don't remember the specifics of the Hulkenberg v Sainz battle any more. Were it the mistakes that would make you rate Hulk lower than Sainz last year? Because from what I remember, it can't have been due to speed.



#111 messy

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 09:38

I think his peaks were higher - and often spoilt by mechanical problems when running well. Hulkenberg was more consistent. Overall you’d give the season to Nico, but I think the performance of the two was way closer than the statistics maybe showed.

#112 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 09:44

Very often, as soon as Kimi steps in a car, it suddenly becomes much better in people's perception. Happens this year, but also happened with Lotus, Ferrari in the latter half of 2009 or even his McLaren's back in the 00's.

Alfa: no idea because I didn't have a perception of it before he stepped in? It's not like he stepped in halfway through the season.
2009: he was losing against Massa. Then Massa had his accident and then during the year the Ferrari improved a lot because of implementing the DDD and cutting the weight down so KERS became an actual advantage. It's not rocket science.
Lotus: those were some wasted cars. Grosjean was no benchmark, he was literally banned.

I don't know, it's a bit tiring to read about how Kimi is somehow an amazing driver as long as he doesn't have someone like Alonso, Vettel, or even Massa as a teammate. Because then apparently he instantly turns to mediocrity because despite being such an amazing driver, he cannot make the team work for him when his teammate has any kind of talent.

Sure.

#113 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 09:45

I don't remember the specifics of the Hulkenberg v Sainz battle any more. Were it the mistakes that would make you rate Hulk lower than Sainz last year? Because from what I remember, it can't have been due to speed.

Yes it's possibly due to errors, I can recall Hulk made a few more than usual. But that can also be due to more pressure from his teammate?

#114 ANF

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 09:48

1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Räikkönen
4. Sainz
5. Leclerc
6. Norris
7. Bottas
8. Russell
9. Vettel
10. Ricciardo
11. Albon
12. Kvyat
13. Pérez
14. Hülkenberg
15. Magnussen
16. Stroll
17. Gasly
18. Giovinazzi
19. Grosjean
20. Kubica

#115 JeePee

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 10:21

2009: he was losing against Massa. Then Massa had his accident and then during the year the Ferrari improved a lot because of implementing the DDD and cutting the weight down so KERS became an actual advantage. It's not rocket science.

Not to start a 2009 discussion, but I believed development of the 2009 Ferrari stopped midway through the season. That's was why it was so strange Kimi was one of the highest scoring drivers of the 2nd half. Only difference at Ferrari was that Massa was gone and Kimi became their 1st driver again. The car (apart from setup maybe) didn't really change.


Edited by JeePee, 05 August 2019 - 10:22.


#116 barzini

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 10:49

I don't know, it's a bit tiring to read about how Kimi is somehow an amazing driver as long as he doesn't have someone like Alonso, Vettel, or even Massa as a teammate. Because then apparently he instantly turns to mediocrity because despite being such an amazing driver, he cannot make the team work for him when his teammate has any kind of talent.

Sure.

 

It is equally tiring to read about belittling every single performance made by Kimi. Even when he is in a midfield car you guys can't stop coming with "Wonder what Vettel/Alonso/Hamilton could do?". 

 

I guess we shouldn't rate anyother driver than Hamilton and Max at all, because they are the best. Whenever someone else performs a good race we can just belittle that by "Wonder what Hamilton could do in that Williams, Russel hasn't done anything remarkable". Heck, I'm sure that Max and Hamilton would've won couple of races in that Ferrari by now already.


Edited by barzini, 05 August 2019 - 10:50.


#117 GoldenColt

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 10:52

Here are my top 10, although I will only go into detail for the top 3:

 

1. Lewis Hamilton

 

Now, this might come as a bit of a surprise considering my comment from saturday evening:

 

About Max and RB? Everything's possible, RB have taken a huge step forward chassis-wise and they'll get a new engine for Spa I think which will push them ahead again. Also, Max is driving superbly well, best driver of the season so far without a doubt. I still firmly believe that Lewis and Merc are too good to bottle this, but RB are a threat.

 

Allow me to explain: Up until Lewis botched his German GP and threw away a healthy lead, I had him on top of my list with Max a smidgen behind. While I feel that Lewis's one lap pace hasn't been up to his usual standard, especially compared to the second half of 2018, I felt that his race-pace had been devastating so far. His tyre management is in my opinion the best on the grid, he truly is the tyre-whisperer these days. But when he needed to be aggressive, we saw the Lewis Hamilton of his early McLaren-days make a return. Bahrain was an example of him pushing Sebastian relentlessly and into a mistake. He judged his overtake perfectly, even stating that he gambled on braking much later than usual because he could see a flag in the distance indicating that there was a very strong head-wind. Imagine the presence of mind you need to have to calculate a risky move like this. And then of course there's his superb drive yesterday, again pushing relentlessly and pulling off a victory we will remember for a very long time, against a driver whom many would consider to be his successor in dominating the sport. Is there a bit of a recency bias in my ranking with regards to Lewis's position? Yes. But if Lewis hadn't shown some of the performances earlier in the season yesterday's race wouldn't have put him on top anyway. As for Germany, neither was his performance as terrible as some made it out to be, nor was Max's performance as great as some people claimed. All things considered, Lewis deserves to be on top.

 

2. Max Verstappen

 

The flying dutchman continues to impress me race after race. We all knew he had the pace from very early on, but the amount of mistakes he made in the past would cost him valuable points and put a dent into his reputation. Since mid 2018 he has been on a great run extracting the maximum out of his car almost all the time, bagging in the big points and plenty of silverware along the way. However, it has to be said that given how terrible Gasly is performing, we don't know how good the RB really is. Max doesn't have to face any challenge within his own team as Gasly is not only the clear #2 but also poses no danger in qualifying or any of the races. And while Bottas isn't exactly a huge challenge on race-day for Lewis either, he at least extracts everything or close to everything out of his Mercedes in qualifying (I'd go as far as to say that his P2 on saturday was the most impressive of any laps, including Max's maiden pole).

 

All in all, Max is in a rather favorable position with regards to how people rate his season so far: he's up against a teammate who is obviously not up to the task, he doesn't have a realistic chance to win the WDC so if he doesn't it won't hurt his reputation even a bit, which results in less pressure. It's a win-win situation for him because whenever he wins a race it will be deemed as special due to how rare these results are in this era of Mercedes-dominated race results (overlooking that the RB while not quite up there with the Merc aren't far off now, neither over one lap nor over a full race-distance), and if he doesn't win and "only" ends up on the podium or even outside of it he will still finish way ahead of his hopeless  teammate, so people can point at that and still find something positive to say. Max has yet to prove how he handles a situation where the championship is in sight and he has to deliver every lap to fend off the likes of Hamilton, while having the threat of losing grip on the biggest of all trophies looming over him. To sum up, Max has been driving brilliantly this season, but he has done so under comparatively pressure-free circumstances with a teammate that would make many other drivers shine. I do have to take that into account for my ranking.

 

3. Carlos Sainz

 

RB must be kicking themselves for releasing him from his contract entirely to join McLaren. And yet, we can all be grateful they did because Carlos seems to have a positive influence on the team so far. I was one of those thinking McLaren had finally and irreversibly lost their status as a top team with Alonso leaving and their new drivers being, well, not the most exciting duo at least on paper. But it seems that this is exactly what they needed. Having a guy like Alonso around brings laptimes but also includes a burden as he expects to be fighting for wins and championships and if his own goals are not at all aligned with where the car is, that creates frustration which would be damaging to the teams' morale. Carlos, while having a tough time with his rookie teammate on saturdays, has shown brilliant performances on sundays in Monte Carlo and Spielberg and getting the better of Norris on sundays despite starting further behind. He was also unlucky at some of the early races which cost him a chunk of points. Yet, it's his performances which have probably already secured McLaren's position in 4th in the WCC and this resurgence of a team that has become the laughing stock of F1 in recent years is one of the best stories of the season so far.

 

4. Kimi Raikkonen - no spotlight from the media he abominates so much, a team that listens to his demands and tries to get the car to his liking, no politics within his own team and voilà:  Kimi looks like a guy who still has plenty to give for another one or two years. I respect the fact that he loves racing so much he's willing to give up the comfort of driving a race-winning car and move to a lesser team. And his results have been consistently strong so far. Go Kimi!

 

5. Charles Leclerc - devastatingly quick at times but error-prone. If he can find a better balance between being fast and avoiding mistakes I have no doubt he will start outperforming Vettel on a regular basis, but so far he has cost himself a big chunk of points. Still, he's a great prospect for the scuderia and deserves his place at Ferrari.

 

6. George Russell - some brilliant performances in a car that is mostly driving on its own. However, Kubica is not the best teammate to measure the ultimate pace of that Williams, so it'll be interesting to see how George performs against a better driver in the future.

 

7. Lando Norris - his one lap pace has been strong from the get-go, but sometimes he doesn't seem to be as decisive in his battles on track. I believe he said that staying in the race and gaining experience is more valuable at this point of his career rather than going for the balls-out moves, which is fair enough but it would be nice to see a bit more of the latter soon. I have no doubt that this guy is a future race-winner though, the potential is clear to see for all.

 

8. Sebastian Vettel - it hasn't been the carbon-copy of 2014 alongside Charles which some expected/feared, but his position in the WDC is flattering him a bit, especially with Red Bull being a one man team this season. Both him and Leclerc had one opportunity each to win at least one race this season, but while Charles lost the race because of his car in Bahrain and was pretty much helpless against a charging Max in Austria, Vettel threw a certain win away all by himself at Canada in what would otherwise have been his strongest weekend of the season. Once his young teammate cuts down on his errors, I think Sebastian will have a tough time staying ahead in the WDC. And that's despite his #1 status and plenty of teamorders issued to Charles early on, not to mention poor strategies.

 

9. Daniel Ricciardo - His first two race weekends were rather concerning, but something clicked for him in China and since then he has been the leading Renault driver, more so in qualifying than over a full race-distance. I expected Nico to be closer to Daniel at this rather early stage  of the season, or maybe even slightly ahead overall, but it seems as if it didn't take Daniel too long to adapt to the handling of his new car, which is quite a different beast than the RB. Looking forward to seeing how he'll do in the second part of the season and especially next year. Here's hoping the french team can get their act together soon, otherwise it'll be a waste of talent to have Daniel fighting for lower points positions only.

 

10. Valtteri Bottas - it all started so well with his victory at the opening race in Australia, but after that it was a quick comeback to earth for Valtteri. Two and a half years into his tenure at Mercedes and things haven't changed one bit - he's very fast over one lap, capable of beating Lewis 5-7 times per season, but come race-day he's struggling enormously against his teammate and is sometimes a liability, especially when he's holding Lewis up. Looking after this tyres is Lewis's forte and Bottas is up against the wrong man at the wrong time. Can't help but feel that if refuelling made a return in F1 we would see a stronger Bottas on sundays. To sum up, it's early August and the championship-train has left the station for Valtteri already, barring any unexpected events.


Edited by GoldenColt, 05 August 2019 - 11:34.


#118 born1983

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 11:03

Honest question to all.

How can you rate Leclerc above Vettel? Vettel is comfortably ahead in the points standing. I don’t think that this is due to bad luck on Leclerc’s part.

#119 AnR

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 11:05

1. Verstappen, easily the best this year, give him a car to compete a full season, or will RB do just that?

 

2. Hamilton, still in a dominant car and a teammate not up for the task

 

3. Sainz, what would he have done in a Merc?

 

4. Leclerc

5. Raikkonen

6. Vettel

7. Ricciardo

8. Norris

9. Russell

10. Bottas



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#120 NixxxoN

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 11:17

1. Hamilton/Verstappen - Sorry I can't decide between the two. Both destroying their team mates (Max more but Gasly has been terrible) and making the difference as drivers, putting an extra to get over the rest. The class of the field atm.
3. Sainz - Best season for him so far, almost flawless performances in the4th best car even getting results it doesnt deserve. Gaining experience and maturity. He is the guy that should've been in Gasly's seat however it may be a better idea to lead another team like he does than be number 2 in RB.
4. Kimi - Very impressive season for almost a 40 years old guy, he is destroying his much younger and in theoiry much hungrier team mate, who is quite disappointing
5. Leclerc - He has done quite well, being incredibly fast and incredibly talented sometimes but also has made several mistakes, he has to gain more experience, but he is promising to be one of max big rivals for the future.
6. Norris - Very good debut so far from the rookie. He is getting beaten in sundays by his more experienced team mate but nonetheless he is showing to have very good speed and good talent.
7. Bottas - Probably Bottas best season in merc but still not enough and still has not matched Rosberg's performances vs Hamilton. Has been questioned and him continuing in Merc depends if he ups his game again or not
8. Ricciardo - He's been struggling a bit driving a far worse car that he used to, but still has done well, he has been edging Hulk.
9. Russell - Invisible but he's handinly beating Kubica, I dont know how much of a merit is this but on paper he's a good young driver.
10. Vettel - Very disappointing season, he's nowhere, a beaten man. Leclerc is putting immense pressure on him
11. Albon - Getting slightly beaten by Kvyat but he's doing well, not much of a margin. Looks like a solid driver.

12. Perez - Probably the worst season for him so far in terms of results, but still he is solidly beating Stroll. Has been quite invisible and his car performance probably has a lot to do.
13. Kvyat - He should not feel much comfortable, he is marginally beating rookie Albon. Lucked into a podium in Germany thanks to winning a gamble.
14. Hülkenberg - He is getting beaten by Ric, he has to up his game. Yet again lost a podium chance in Germany. He definitely must hate podiums and doesnt seem to want to have a much waited step up his career...
15. Magnussen - Mistakes, complains, and crashes with his team mate, But he has delivered better results than his team mate.
16. Stroll - His father has been doing well and his seat is secure. Lucked into 4th place in Germany thanks to winning a gamble.

17. Kubica - It has a lot of merit to be driving with 1 and a half hands and thats the reason why I dont put him last. He is getting beaten by his team mate but not always. He got 1 miracle point at Germany
18. Gasly - Very dissapoining season for him, he is showing to be too slow and not good enough in wheel to wheel. His team mate is very fast but still he should'nt be that far away.
19. Giovinazzi - Another driver who's having a very disappointing season, with his prime age he should be beating a 40 years old semi retiree comfortably, but its actually the other way round.
20. Grosjean - Mistakes, complains, and crashes with his team mate. And has hardly delivered any good results.



#121 Diablobb81

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 11:20

Leclerc above Vettel. Bottas in top 10. Oh boy.



#122 Kao18

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 11:57

Leclerc above Vettel. Bottas in top 10. Oh boy.


I dont see how you can put Leclerc top 5, let alone top 3 anyway. He is fast in qualy but his racepace and tiremanagement havent been that impressive. Plus he has made some big mistakes losing a lot of points and is well behind Vettel in the wdc despite Vettel not having a great season performance wise either. Leclerc obviously has bags of potential but so far despite some moments of brilliance underperformed imo.

#123 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:05

Am I the only one who rates Albon as the best of the rookies? I’m seeing Russell and Norris in a lot of top tens. 

 
Russell is impossible to judge as he’s driving a car that can’t overtake, and can’t defend position (until this last weekend at least). He’s out performing Kubica, but the arm injury must be inhibiting his performance. Maybe George is driving like a machine and hitting every apex to within an inch lap after lap, but he can’t show racing skill. It’s good for him though as he gets to gain experience whilst being out of the spotlight.
 
Lando is fast in qualifying but I always expect him to go backwards in the race, eg in Silverstone where he didn’t seem to defend in the opening laps. Needs to attack more.
 
Alex has done well to match Kvyat this season. He doesn’t qualify as high as Norris, but conversely I always think Albon will go forward in the race. And getting up to 4th in the rain in Germany prior to the final pit stops, and finishing 6th was my rookie drive of the year so far. He’s a good defender of position, and is willing, and able, to go for a good passing move eg the lunge down the inside of Perez yesterday.


#124 Zilbert

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:26

Alfa: no idea because I didn't have a perception of it before he stepped in? It's not like he stepped in halfway through the season.
2009: he was losing against Massa. Then Massa had his accident and then during the year the Ferrari improved a lot because of implementing the DDD and cutting the weight down so KERS became an actual advantage. It's not rocket science.
Lotus: those were some wasted cars. Grosjean was no benchmark, he was literally banned.

I don't know, it's a bit tiring to read about how Kimi is somehow an amazing driver as long as he doesn't have someone like Alonso, Vettel, or even Massa as a teammate. Because then apparently he instantly turns to mediocrity because despite being such an amazing driver, he cannot make the team work for him when his teammate has any kind of talent.

Sure.

What does Grosjean's ban have to do with him as a benchmark? He's still considered as very quick driver by many when his head is in the right place, beat Maldonado who compared well to Bottas, etc. And 2009 Massa beating Kimi storyline is tiring as well, they were kind of matched pace wise as they on average were more or less throughout those years. Kimi almost put that car on pole in Monaco for example, points don't represent accurate picture there.



#125 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:35

What does Grosjean's ban have to do with him as a benchmark? He's still considered as very quick driver by many when his head is in the right place, beat Maldonado who compared well to Bottas, etc. And 2009 Massa beating Kimi storyline is tiring as well, they were kind of matched pace wise as they on average were more or less throughout those years. Kimi almost put that car on pole in Monaco for example, points don't represent accurate picture there.

Grosjean's head wasn't in the right place, that's where the point about the ban comes in. He was fast though and did frequently outpace Kimi, so that's correct. But of course Grosjean wasn't going to beat Kimi in the WDC. He's not a valuable benchmark, I mean when bringing up that he beat Maldonado is the best you have to offer...

#126 Zilbert

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:41

Grosjean's head wasn't in the right place, that's where the point about the ban comes in. He was fast though and did frequently outpace Kimi, so that's correct. But of course Grosjean wasn't going to beat Kimi in the WDC. He's not a valuable benchmark, I mean when bringing up that he beat Maldonado is the best you have to offer...

So when he was quicker than Kimi, it's a negative for Kimi, when it was the other way around (which happened quite often, Kimi didn't outscore him solely by driving slower and picking up points when Grosjean crashed), well, it's just Grosjean... You honestly don't see the double standards there?



#127 Lights

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:48

So when he was quicker than Kimi, it's a negative for Kimi, when it was the other way around (which happened quite often, Kimi didn't outscore him solely by driving slower and picking up points when Grosjean crashed), well, it's just Grosjean... You honestly don't see the double standards there?

It's not double standards. I never rated Grosjean, so that Kimi beat him as teammates doesn't prove anything about Kimi being amazing. Especially as it was in a time where Grosjean did stupid stuff and got a race ban, that just proves his head wasn't in the right place.

#128 Retrofly

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:52

#1. Max, can't think of any time when Max hasn't got the most out of the car.

#2. Lewis, could probably swap the 2 around its so close, not #1 becuase he's had a couple of scruffy sessions and races and has been beaten by his teammate on a couple of occasions.

#3. Leclerc, only his 2nd season in F1 and putting a 4 times WDC to the sword already. Should have has a race win.

#4. Sainz, super reliable and consistent, honestly the results and the table speak for themselves. Unless the Mclaren is secretly a super car he's getting everything he can out of it.

#5, Kimi, again dependable Kimi, decent results and points and absolutely pasting his teammate

#6, Bottas, despite a few lows he's had some good highs, 2 wins and a couple of poles, if you rate Lewis highly then you have to give Bottas some credit for beating him. I do worry that this is the start of his downfall this year and he will dissapear again in the later half of the season like last time.

#7, Vettel, not too bad of a season, not as bad as people make out, but some absolute howlers have cost him here, not showing much dominance over the new guy. I expect him to be surpassed by LeCerlec, Monza and Spa will be a big deal for Vettel, Ferrari should come good. Ask me again what i think of Vettel in a couple of races.

#8, Norris, Having a pretty good rookie year, doing rookie things, showing great pace but not great reliability while making a few mistakes. Able to beat Sainz on a good day.

#9, Kvyat, I don't think Kvyat is getting enough credit for the job he's doing this season, Germany may have flattered him in the standings, but he still managed to grab a podium when other seasoned drivers lost it. Some other decent top 10 results.

#10, Russell, Hard to place this guy. Honestly he could be placed anywhere from 4th to 11th in my list. Thrashing Kubica, but failed to grab the point in Germany. Stick him in the Merc please!

#11, Albon, Again I think slightly underrated been impressed with some of his performances.

#12, Danny Ric, Pretty poor season, not a disaster. Gone missing a few times but has the edge over his teammate.

#13, KMag, Not great, not terrible either, I don't know how great the HaaS car is, seems like a dog with an awfully run team/sponsors. I like kmag though. No ****s given.

#14, Hulk, What happened to Hulk this season, please someone tell me. Maybe I'm being harsh?

#15, Romain, Hard to gauge with Romain, 6 retirements, I can't remember how many were self inflicted.

#16, Perez, Getting beaten in the c'chip by Stroll, tells you everything. Mainly becuase of Strolls 4th, but Perez crashed out that race, and points means prizes.

#17, Stroll, why lower than perez? Well his lows are lower, and kind of got fortunate in Germany. Perez is still the better driver.

#18, Gasley, Not much to say, woeful. RB need to think hard about the young driver slot philosophy, seems to break drivers, and just ends up costing RB constructor points. Swap him with Albon.

#19, Giovinazzi, Nowhere, only 1 point this season, his teammate has 31!

#20, Kubica, Shouldn't be in F1 wasted of a seat. The Williams is a crap car, but having Kubica in the car is detrimental.



#129 JeePee

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:56

It's not double standards. I never rated Grosjean, so that Kimi beat him as teammates doesn't prove anything about Kimi being amazing. Especially as it was in a time where Grosjean did stupid stuff and got a race ban, that just proves his head wasn't in the right place.

Kimi is a world champion, a race winner for 3 different teams, one of the highest paid F1 drivers in history, the last Ferrari race winner ánd champion and he scored more than 100 podiums. You don't achieve that by being slow.
 
When the guy clicks with a car, he is fast. He feels at home at Alfa and it shows on track.


#130 Zilbert

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 13:06

It's not double standards. I never rated Grosjean, so that Kimi beat him as teammates doesn't prove anything about Kimi being amazing. Especially as it was in a time where Grosjean did stupid stuff and got a race ban, that just proves his head wasn't in the right place.

Grosjean had his moments of brain absence, no doubt. But they were teammates for two seasons, if his head was never or rarely in the right place, you think he would still be on the grid 5 years later? But it's a moot point, cause you don't rate him anyway, too bad for him i guess. 



#131 Grundle

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 13:37

1. Lewis Hamilton
It's not easy to win as much as he is winning, even with overall the best car. Facing a rabidly determined teammate, yet still comfortably dealing with the threat. Facing up to the challenge of Max with such authority in Hungary kind of rubber stamps it for me.
2. Max Verstappen
Speed and consistency. Like a metronome in the races, reminds me of Alonso. Only two small mistakes all season, collision with Sainz that was lucky, and getting overtaken by Leclerc in Silverstone just out the pits.
3. Sebastian Vettel
Under massive pressure from Leclerc yet dealing with it better than he did with Ricciardo. Last two races have swung the pendulum back his way.
4. Charles Leclerc
Seemingly faster than Vettel in qualifying, but too many erratic moments has cost him.
5. Sainz
He's just doing the job very well, but I don't see anything breathtaking.
6.Bottas
Still second in the drivers race, but you can anticipate the inconsistency that inevitably befalls him. Gets outclassed on occasion in high quality races. Destined to be overtaken by Verstappen in the drivers race.
7. Russell
Based on nothing more than feeling and thinking he's making Kubica look even worse
8. Ricciardo
The car is ****
9. Kimi
Quietly impressive
10. Norris
Meme lord or serious racer?
11. Albon
Impressive how he hits the ground running in free practice
12. Perez
Not much chance to shine, binned it when there was
13. Kvyat
Slowly moving on from the torpedo
14. Hulk
Stop bottling your chances man
15. Magnusson
Crazy
16. Stroll
Occaisonally has a race that shuts the rabid haters up
17. Giovinazzi
Mama Mia!
18. Grosjean
Sacre Bleu!
19. Gasly
What's French for ****?
Not even a podium yet in a Red Bull
20. Kubica
Sympathies

#132 ANF

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 14:49

I think it's Putin!

#133 JeePee

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 15:44

Lewis, Max and Sebastian rating themselves:

 

https://youtu.be/ekETTDugOks?t=1430

 

Spoiler:

Vettel: 5

Lewis: 8,9

Max: n/a


Edited by JeePee, 05 August 2019 - 15:46.


#134 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 15:57

I don't know, it's a bit tiring to read about how Kimi is somehow an amazing driver as long as he doesn't have someone like Alonso, Vettel, or even Massa as a teammate. Because then apparently he instantly turns to mediocrity because despite being such an amazing driver, he cannot make the team work for him when his teammate has any kind of talent.

Sure.

And I feel it’s becoming a bit tiring that everytime Kimi’s in a car you see the same comment over and over: “We’ll never know how good the car was because Kimi was in it.” Some people here make it seem like Kimi is on the level of drivers like Diniz or Mazzacane.

He’s a world champion with multiple poles and wins, something not many other drivers in the last decade can say. He got pretty much most out of the Lotus and he’s pretty much getting most out of the Alfa car this season. His only real rubbish seasons in F1 were 2014 and 2015. Well even Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel had rubbish seasons.

#135 shure

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:34

And I feel it’s becoming a bit tiring that everytime Kimi’s in a car you see the same comment over and over: “We’ll never know how good the car was because Kimi was in it.” Some people here make it seem like Kimi is on the level of drivers like Diniz or Mazzacane.

He’s a world champion with multiple poles and wins, something not many other drivers in the last decade can say. He got pretty much most out of the Lotus and he’s pretty much getting most out of the Alfa car this season. His only real rubbish seasons in F1 were 2014 and 2015. Well even Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel had rubbish seasons.

I like Kimi.  But he was consistently slower than both Alonso and Vettel in the entire time he partnered them.  I think it's a bit of a stretch to imagine he's getting the best out of his car now when he never managed it in his entire 5 year stint at Ferrari.  Now I'm not saying he was terrible the whole time, but he was clearly second best.

 

So it's legitimate to imagine that an Alonso or Vettel would be getting significantly more out of the Alfa than Kimi is currently doing.  Because they almost always did in the Ferrari



#136 abc

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:36

Its laughable and silly to put Leclerc ahead of Vettel

 

Vettel still leads quali duel where they competed 5:4

Vettel has better race pace more often than not

Vettel made less mistakes (how lucky was Leclerc in quali in Hungary)

 

Vettel was better man in Australia, China, Baku, Canada, Germany and Hungary, while Leclerc was better only in Bahrain, France, Silverstone (Austria, Spain and Monaco not clear cases due to different reasons)

 

You lot rate Leclerc higher probably because you remember decisions which didnt turned out well for Leclerc for months, but terrible strategy for Vettel, terrible reliability and even worse pitstops are forgotten in next minute.


Edited by abc, 05 August 2019 - 17:34.


#137 Retrofly

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:36

Retros  "Unofficial Autosport Forums mid-season driver ratings table" or UAFMSDRT for short

 

Only took the top 10 into account, becuase some people find rating all 20 too hard. :)

 

unofficial.png


Edited by Retrofly, 05 August 2019 - 16:37.


#138 abc

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:40

For what is worth:

 

1. Max by far

2. Hamilton

3. Kimi (Kimi is great, but I think for majority will be big problem to give him credit, because it would revaluate Vettels past years, too)

4. Vettel

5. Sainz (sometimes he ends up ahead of Norris only due to luck)

6. Leclerc (media and stewards darling)

7. Bottas

8. Kvyat

9. Albon

10. maybe Russel



#139 shure

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:41

2015 and 2017 for sure Seb was clearly ahead. 2016 and 2018 it was a lot closer, for example 2018 races went 8-8 when both finished the races and the gap between them in races was over 20 seconds 5 times (from those Kimi finished in front 3 times and Seb 2 times).

Are you really suggesting Kimi was Vettel's equal in 2018?  I would disagree.  Vettel was almost invariably quicker.  Kimi did improve in 2018 relative to Vettel for sure, but there was no doubt all season who was the better driver



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#140 barzini

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:43

I guess the only drivers who we should praise are Max and Lewis, because they would perform better than anyone in any car. From Williams to Mercedes.

#141 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:46

Are you really suggesting Kimi was Vettel's equal in 2018? I would disagree. Vettel was almost invariably quicker. Kimi did improve in 2018 relative to Vettel for sure, but there was no doubt all season who was the better driver


No no of course not, it was just to point out that Kimi was actually close to him last year and drove a strong season.

#142 aray

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:48

Honest question to all.

How can you rate Leclerc above Vettel? Vettel is comfortably ahead in the points standing. I don’t think that this is due to bad luck on Leclerc’s part.

Vettel in his 5th year in Ferrari is just as fast as someone in his first year in the same team and 2nd year in the F1.

Also regarding points, he is only 24 points ahead despite Leclerc making critical mistakes. A non finish and Leclerc taking a win can erase that gap.



#143 thefinalapex

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:49

5. Leclerc - He has done quite well, being incredibly fast and incredibly talented sometimes but also has made several mistakes, he has to gain more experience, but he is promising to be one of max big rivals for the future.
10. Vettel - Very disappointing season, he's nowhere, a beaten man. Leclerc is putting immense pressure on him
 

 

Doesn't that make Leclerc's season unimpressive then if your trailing a teammate that has been 'nowhere' and 'a beaten man' by your own account?

By your own standards you must have not rated Alonso very highly then in 2007! Getting immense pressure by a rookie. So much that he tryed to blackmail his own team  ;)



#144 shure

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:52

No no of course not, it was just to point out that Kimi was actually close to him last year and drove a strong season.

I agree he drove a strong season last year and I'd say it was probably his best year at Ferrari.  But even with that he was still not on Vettel's level and it can't really be said that he was getting the best out of the Ferrari for the most part.  And that's not to big up Vettel, but just to point out that, as well as Kimi is doing in the Alfa this year, the chances are that the car would look even better in the hands of a really top driver and maybe the points table would be looking very different.  Alfa is only a few points behind Renault and a few more behind TR - it's not inconceivable that with a driver of Vettel's calibre people might be talking about the Alfa as the 4th best car, in much the same way they are talking about how good the Red Bull is now, because without Max in the seat it's not even troubling the Ferraris, let alone the Mercs



#145 thefinalapex

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 16:52

Vettel in his 5th year in Ferrari is just as fast as someone in his first year in the same team and 2nd year in the F1.

Also regarding points, he is only 24 points ahead despite Leclerc making critical mistakes. A non finish and Leclerc taking a win can erase that gap.

 

If youre quick enough your old enough, since when is 'only his second season' an excuse? Hamilton was fast from the get go likewise Senna, Schumacher, Verstappen. The goalposts always change with Vettel.. He can never do right. I am not saying he has been at his best this season but he still one of the quickest in the business. 



#146 messy

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 17:01

No no of course not, it was just to point out that Kimi was actually close to him last year and drove a strong season.


He was and he did.

I think Vettel’s failure to comprehensively put Raikkonen to the sword (either side of struggling somewhat against Ricciardo and Leclerc) is the biggest black mark against him when it comes to assessing his place in the ranking of multiple WDCs. Sure, Hamilton loses to his team-mate 5/6 times a season too, but when you consider how easily Alonso blew away Kimi.....

#147 shure

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 17:05

I guess the only drivers who we should praise are Max and Lewis, because they would perform better than anyone in any car. From Williams to Mercedes.

If you're referring to the Kimi discussion, I disagree.  The reason Kimi is being discussed is that he was proven to have been consistently slower than other top drivers over many years.  That's not necessarily the case with e.g. Hulk or Perez.



#148 Zilbert

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 17:07

Kimi's best season in his second tenure at Ferrari was 2016 IMO, the car wasn't competitive enough sadly, but he was on Vettel's level for majority of it.



#149 shure

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 17:08

He was and he did.

I think Vettel’s failure to comprehensively put Raikkonen to the sword (either side of struggling somewhat against Ricciardo and Leclerc) is the biggest black mark against him when it comes to assessing his place in the ranking of multiple WDCs. Sure, Hamilton loses to his team-mate 5/6 times a season too, but when you consider how easily Alonso blew away Kimi.....

Vettel blew Kimi away the entire time they were together.  



#150 messy

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 17:09

Vettel blew Kimi away the entire time they were together.


Agree to disagree there.

He was the better, but he didn’t blow him away.