Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

2019 Mid-Season Driver Rankings


  • Please log in to reply
308 replies to this topic

#251 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,281 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 August 2019 - 10:49

Sainz and Norris are being overrated. The McLaren car is rather good now. I think Alonso would have made a podium, Bahrain or Germany

 

Yeah, I probably agree on that.

 

However then it's also easy to argue Alonso would have done better than Kimi in the Alfa, Or done better in the Ferrari. That covers the rest of the drivers in many people's top 7. So if you'd drop all these drivers down based on that Alonso would've done better than them, who would actually be the 3rd best driver this year? It has to be someone.

 

The problem is that nobody besides Lewis and Max really stands out. I noticed the same in my own ranking, the guys between 3-11 are very close. So while a lot of people might have Sainz in 3rd, it doesn't say too much. In my list he can easily drop down to 7th if he has 1 shocking race.



Advertisement

#252 autosportfan

autosportfan
  • Member

  • 590 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 09 August 2019 - 10:50

Sainz and Norris are being overrated. The McLaren car is rather good now. I think Alonso would have made a podium, Bahrain or Germany

 

Sunday Sainz deserves to be in the top 5.  In his Toro Rosso year he scored more points than Max. Shame RBR overlooked him over Gasly. 



#253 Retrofly

Retrofly
  • Member

  • 3,396 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:02

Lol mate, no, haven’t you heard? According to a certain poster here, not crashing is now also luck. But just wait and see, soon his luck will run out!

Apparently you can win 5xWDC's down lo luck also. Some people have interesting views on luck that's for sure :lol:

 

How to downplay a drivers skill

  • Step 1 - Its the car
  • Step 2 - They have #1 status and lapdog teammates
  • Step 3 - Its luck
  • Step 3 - All the other drivers were crap at the time.

Sometime you hear its all 4!



#254 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,281 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:05

Sunday Sainz deserves to be in the top 5.  Shame RBR overlooked him over Gasly. 

 

Nah it's only been positive for Sainz that he managed to shake himself loose from the mothership.

 

Red Bull revolves around Verstappen. Gasly is going through psychological hell right now.

 

Best care scenario, Sainz would've ended up in a similar situation as Ricciardo. Who went to a worse team because he didn't like it anymore. That says it all.


Edited by Lights, 09 August 2019 - 11:06.


#255 Laptom

Laptom
  • Member

  • 288 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:22

In his Toro Rosso year he scored more points than Max. 

 

Which year he scored more points than Max? I thought Max had the upper-hand both seasons.



#256 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 4,562 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 09 August 2019 - 13:56

fwiw, averages from the publications:

 

 

Better late than never I guess

 

EuWpe67.png



#257 Ragingjamaican

Ragingjamaican
  • Member

  • 783 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 09 August 2019 - 14:08

There have been several solid performers, one who I'm not seeing as much pop in the top 10 is Alexander Albon. I think he's done a great job so far with some good races, quietly getting the results. Hockenheim was very good and he running very high, also in China from back of the grid to 10th in a competitive midfield. Of course we don't know how good that Toro Rosso is, but compared to Kvyat, who is no slouch, he is doing a great job. I think Toro Rosso have good driver pairing with a good car.

 

Sainz, Raikkonen have done amazingly well for their teams. Sainz, I reckon, could have gotten a podium in Bahrain, his pace was that strong when he had the clash with Verstappen which was unfortunate, missed opportunity.

 

Top performers for me have been Verstappen, Hamilton, Sainz, Raikkonen

Good - Leclerc, Vettel, Russell, Albon, Norris

Above average - Kvyat,

Average - Bottas, Perez, Stroll, Ricciardo, Hulkenberg, Magnussen

Poor - Gasly, Kubica, Giovinazzi, Grosjean (surprised as I rate him)

 

Hard to judge the Renault drivers due to reliability issues, Haas the same with different car specs.

 

All rookies doing well, apart from Giovinazzi but he has had problems in the first 5 or so races outside his control, so he's been on the backfoot from the start.



#258 Retrofly

Retrofly
  • Member

  • 3,396 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 09 August 2019 - 15:39

Ok, its the summer break so I've made some unnecessary charts. Scores might not be perfect, usual disclaimer stuff but it seems about right.

 

asTotals.png

 

Scores are worked out by giving 1st 10 points, 2nd 9 points etc from peoples lists, made some tweaks where people couldn't decided between 2, didn't make much difference. Only took into account top 10 of peoples lists, ignored lists that were less than 10 and/or had too many drivers at the same position/score.

 

asChart.png

 

as-Data-Set.png

 

Anything interesting? Not really, I guess Max, Lewis, Charles and Sainz being the only ones not dropping out of the top 10 list is interesting.

Max and Lewis are obviously the deadcerts for top 2, with the concensus with Max firmly at #1.

Sainz pretty nailed on for 3rd with Leclerc at number 4.

Seb, Bottas and Kimi are all quite close in the midfield.

 

I don't think any 2 people picked the same top 10 and no lists matches the overall "consensus". No real shock there though.



#259 PlayboyRacer

PlayboyRacer
  • Member

  • 2,344 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 09 August 2019 - 22:23

Lol mate, no, haven’t you heard? According to a certain poster here, not crashing is now also luck. But just wait and see, soon his luck will run out!

You still going? Lmao whatever you wanna believe, Max has car control on a level never seen previously in F1. Looks like we have God driving for Red Bull.

Lucky them!

Advertisement

#260 KeithD68

KeithD68
  • Member

  • 101 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 11 August 2019 - 17:32

Nope, Mediums,and it was Max also who queried the tyre choice whilst on his out lap.  And yes, when you spin twice, then dont have enough pace to catch and pass Williams cars (until a safety car gifts you the time deficit) you can say its a poor race and Lewis' fault.  Hell, he can see LeClerc's car parked in the wall at the exact spot and still threw it off the road.

 

The good news is, most Hamilton fans agree with you, it's just everyone else who doesn't.....

 

 

Yes you are correct, I meant to write slicks.

 

But you didn't answer the point.  The point was Hamilton is 'marked down' for being on the wrong tyres and spinning.  Max isn't.  Situation was exactly the same.  Either both drivers made a mistake, or neither driver are root cause of the mistake, the team put them in the situation.

 

A you can cut out the childish dig at the end, it is uncalled for and if you can't hold an adult conversation with me please just don't bother engaging.


Edited by KeithD68, 11 August 2019 - 17:34.


#261 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 2,790 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 13 August 2019 - 08:51

Yes you are correct, I meant to write slicks.

 

But you didn't answer the point.  The point was Hamilton is 'marked down' for being on the wrong tyres and spinning.  Max isn't.  Situation was exactly the same.  Either both drivers made a mistake, or neither driver are root cause of the mistake, the team put them in the situation.

 

A you can cut out the childish dig at the end, it is uncalled for and if you can't hold an adult conversation with me please just don't bother engaging.

Or. Max didn't get marked down because after the spin he went on to win the race, and Lewis spun AGAIN and failed to overtake slower cars and went on to finish in a distant 11th.



#262 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,474 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:14

A lot better, no. But you can’t argue Sainz is developing pretty well as an F1 driver right now.

 

Gasly looked good in the TR as well last year, but it turns out that was either due to the car being good in some races or to having a slow team mate.

 

Norris is an unproven rookie benchmark, so in my view it's hard to definitively judge Sainz this year (who by the way seems to be a bit slower in qualifying than rookie Norris?). 



#263 FelixAdan

FelixAdan
  • Member

  • 195 posts
  • Joined: April 16

Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:58

Gasly looked good in the TR as well last year, but it turns out that was either due to the car being good in some races or to having a slow team mate.

 

Norris is an unproven rookie benchmark, so in my view it's hard to definitively judge Sainz this year (who by the way seems to be a bit slower in qualifying than rookie Norris?). 

 

Sainz isn't Gasly.

 

Norris may be an unproven rookie, but it's not that there aren't more factors to account. Such as results or actions the day that gives points. 

 

You Max fans gave a lot of importance to whatever Red Bull considered or did in regards to Max and used it to hail the guy. I think it's only fair to do the same with the other drivers as well, and as far as McLaren has stated, they haven't stopped praising both Sainz and Norris. I'm sure they have some conclusive data, just as you guys said in regards to Max back in the day.



#264 sgtkate

sgtkate
  • Member

  • 334 posts
  • Joined: May 17

Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:23

Sainz isn't Gasly.

 

Norris may be an unproven rookie, but it's not that there aren't more factors to account. Such as results or actions the day that gives points. 

 

You Max fans gave a lot of importance to whatever Red Bull considered or did in regards to Max and used it to hail the guy. I think it's only fair to do the same with the other drivers as well, and as far as McLaren has stated, they haven't stopped praising both Sainz and Norris. I'm sure they have some conclusive data, just as you guys said in regards to Max back in the day.

Agreed totally. While Sainz isn't as good as Max, not many are to be fair, he is doing a great job for McLaren and deserves his 3rd place ranking in the performance charts. As a McLaren fan I hope both him and Norris and mediocre for the rest of the season so other teams don't poach them! *I don't really.

 

As always it's almost impossible to legitimately compare different drivers across teams. People are saying Sainz is being over-rated because the McLaren must be awesome this year, and that's as unprovable as me saying that Sainz is the next messiah as the McLaren is awful...we never really know how good a driver is until they've driven for plenty of different teams and therefore allow a comparison. We could even argue that Hamilton is a bit unknown as he's only driven for 2 teams and had a top car in both...chuck him in a Williams and would he be miles ahead of Russell? Probably, but we can't prove it.

 

Let's just try to judge on what is in front of us, even if that data seems to conflict with previous years. I didn't rate Sainz before he came to McLaren and felt he was only there as a placeholder due to the engine shuffle, but he's done everything asked of him and more this season.

Max is driving his socks off in a car that is 2nd best if not 3rd and he is still coming up with wins on merit.

 

Is Sainz better than Max? Doubtful. Can you prove it? Nope.


Edited by sgtkate, 15 August 2019 - 11:29.


#265 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,474 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:28

What about the qualifying duel with Norris then. 

 

I believe it's now 8-4 to Norris? That is quite unexpected versus a rookie...



#266 sgtkate

sgtkate
  • Member

  • 334 posts
  • Joined: May 17

Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:49

What about the qualifying duel with Norris then. 

 

I believe it's now 8-4 to Norris? That is quite unexpected versus a rookie...

Not necessarily. I'd have thought it was much easier to learn how to go fast on one lap rather than to learn how to maintain a fast race pace. If it was the other way around I'd be concerned. There's not much between either of the McLaren drivers this year TBH but for me Sainz's race craft and overtaking this year has been outstanding to be honest. I can't find overtaking stats annoyingly but I'd guess Carlos would be fairly high up that list in 2019, and yes you can say that he's has opportunity to overtake lots because he's qualified further down than he should have done...almost anything can be skewed either way to support or argue against a point. <shrugs>



#267 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 11,952 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 15 August 2019 - 12:49

Not necessarily. I'd have thought it was much easier to learn how to go fast on one lap rather than to learn how to maintain a fast race pace. If it was the other way around I'd be concerned. There's not much between either of the McLaren drivers this year TBH but for me Sainz's race craft and overtaking this year has been outstanding to be honest. I can't find overtaking stats annoyingly but I'd guess Carlos would be fairly high up that list in 2019, and yes you can say that he's has opportunity to overtake lots because he's qualified further down than he should have done...almost anything can be skewed either way to support or argue against a point. <shrugs>


Before Hungary, Sainz JR. Was tied 4th in most overtakings in 2019:

1.Kvyat 35 overtakes
2.Kimi 30 overtakes
3.Albon 27 overtakes
4.Sainz jr./Vettel 25 overtakes

Source: Michele Merlino

#268 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,314 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 13:18

[mod hat]

Thread cleaned up a bit. This is "2019 Mid-Season Driver Rankings"

[/mod hat]



#269 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 10,191 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 15 August 2019 - 14:04

Before Hungary, Sainz JR. Was tied 4th in most overtakings in 2019:

1.Kvyat 35 overtakes
2.Kimi 30 overtakes
3.Albon 27 overtakes
4.Sainz jr./Vettel 25 overtakes

Source: Michele Merlino

 

You wonder how many were shown. ;)



#270 sgtkate

sgtkate
  • Member

  • 334 posts
  • Joined: May 17

Posted 15 August 2019 - 14:18

You wonder how many were shown.  ;)

Don't get me started on the terrible TV coverage this year....GRRRRRRR. Wrong thread for this though :D



#271 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 4,588 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 15 August 2019 - 17:11

What about the qualifying duel with Norris then.

I believe it's now 8-4 to Norris? That is quite unexpected versus a rookie...

Well, some drivers are fast over one lap, others are better on race speed. I’d say that story goes for the Sainz vs Norris duel.

#272 Mian30

Mian30
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 15 August 2019 - 19:51

This is the who do we like most thread, look at Perez vs Stroll, who has the most points?
That must be a surprise to all, but still, Perez has done much better in these rankings.
 



#273 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,951 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 15 August 2019 - 19:56

Well, some drivers are fast over one lap, others are better on race speed. I’d say that story goes for the Sainz vs Norris duel.

 

Yeah, like Trulli used to beat Alonso in qualy most times, but in the race it was rare when Trulli managed to get near him in race pace.

In fact Sainz is Alonso's disciple so its no coincidence.

In fact there is an interview with both that Alonso said to Carlos he had to focus more on race pace.



#274 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,648 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 15 August 2019 - 22:28

Don't get me started on the terrible TV coverage this year....GRRRRRRR. Wrong thread for this though :D

For a driver many of the pundits and race sites are hailing as probably 3rd best race day driver so far this year, the Sky team seem to be doing their best to ignore both McLaren drivers but more particularly Carlos. Considering we can't get to see him to work at all, he is getting the votes and I find myself watching the computer stats at least as much as the footage. I thought when he was teamed with Max at TR that there wasn't a lot between them TBH.



#275 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 15,005 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 15 August 2019 - 22:44

Sunday Sainz deserves to be in the top 5.  In his Toro Rosso year he scored more points than Max. 

:confused:

 

Donald Trump, is that you?



#276 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 784 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 16 August 2019 - 01:04

This is the who do we like most thread, look at Perez vs Stroll, who has the most points?
That must be a surprise to all, but still, Perez has done much better in these rankings.
 

It's no surprise that in a backmarker team, the guy who managed to finish in a rain race where everyone else crashed out or messed up pit stops has more points than the guy who didn't. By the same logic, Kubica is infinite times better than Russell since he has infinite times more points so far. It becomes a problem to look at points when the sample size for scoring points is too small.



#277 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,604 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 16 August 2019 - 06:17

Gasly looked good in the TR as well last year, but it turns out that was either due to the car being good in some races or to having a slow team mate.
 
Norris is an unproven rookie benchmark, so in my view it's hard to definitively judge Sainz this year (who by the way seems to be a bit slower in qualifying than rookie Norris?).


To give him at least a bit of credit: a team mate who got involved in a number of accidents involving others that were beyond his control and thus prevented him form occoasions to show how good he really was.
Hartley was very unlucky in that respect last year.

#278 Laptom

Laptom
  • Member

  • 288 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 16 August 2019 - 06:46

To give him at least a bit of credit: a team mate who got involved in a number of accidents involving others that were beyond his control and thus prevented him form occoasions to show how good he really was.
Hartley was very unlucky in that respect last year.

 

Indeed, I think Hartley was better than it showed last year. He had a lot of misfortune and first lap issues. Also, for my feeling he was the performance guinea pig for Honda and therefor receiving more engine penalties. Gasly was more the reliability testing, but that observation could be just my perception. I really like the driving style of Hartley to be honest.



#279 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,474 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 16 August 2019 - 07:53

Hartley missed speed in the first part of the season when the car was a bit stronger relatively. 

 

In the end he became faster in qualifying, but he messed up quite a few of his last q laps when the pressure was on. He was never good enough. But seeing Gasly being destroyed by the pressure & Verstappen, I think it's safe to say he was never good enough either. 

 

In fact, all the praise we all put on Gasly (me included!) actually was because he was made to look better by circumstances (team mate not good, car actually pretty good). 

 

I often feel all of us (me included, again), put too much focus on results. 'Omg, Sainz becoming P5', whereas we should focus more on trying to find the best comparisons we can make...



Advertisement

#280 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 10,191 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 16 August 2019 - 08:02

Well, some drivers are fast over one lap, others are better on race speed. I’d say that story goes for the Sainz vs Norris duel.

 

Seeing something similar with Leclerc and Vettel, I think it is mastering the Pirelli's that take ages and without much on track testing, rookies have a lot of trouble on race distances.



#281 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 15,708 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 16 August 2019 - 13:33

Seeing something similar with Leclerc and Vettel, I think it is mastering the Pirelli's that take ages and without much on track testing, rookies have a lot of trouble on race distances.


Well yeah but somewhat weirdly with Max Verstappen it was the other way around, he was competitive with Ricciardo on race pace from day 1, but took him time to nail qualifying.

But I agree with experience you might learn to extract your pace in all conditions instead of only occasionally.

#282 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 3,925 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 16 August 2019 - 14:03

It's interesting how Hulk outperformed Sainz last year in the same car but now of all sudden people rate Sainz as 3rd and Hulk as 14th best driver of the season. Makes you wonder if the performance swing between these two really has been so big or people's perception is just screwed big time by things like particular cars being less or more competitive than expected before the season for example.


Edited by Anderis, 16 August 2019 - 14:04.


#283 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,474 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 16 August 2019 - 14:13

It's interesting how Hulk outperformed Sainz last year in the same car but now of all sudden people rate Sainz as 3rd and Hulk as 14th best driver of the season. Makes you wonder if the performance swing between these two really has been so big or people's perception is just screwed big time by things like particular cars being less or more competitive than expected before the season for example.

 

Exactly my point.

 

Same for Raikkonen. 

 

Both Sainz and Raikkonen are getting pretty decent results this year. But there is not proper benchmark. Are they suddenly better than last year? Possibly, but hard to tell. How good is the car? We don't really know.

 

What we do know is that Hulkenberg, for the first time actually, seems to have a team mate that is just a little bit quicker than him. Hulk had most team mates either covered, or was at least their equal in terms of pace. Now that he has a proper benchmark, we finally get to see that he actually is a decent mid field driver, but not a super start. 

 

People focus way too much on results only. 



#284 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 15,708 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 16 August 2019 - 14:26

It's interesting how Hulk outperformed Sainz last year in the same car but now of all sudden people rate Sainz as 3rd and Hulk as 14th best driver of the season. Makes you wonder if the performance swing between these two really has been so big or people's perception is just screwed big time by things like particular cars being less or more competitive than expected before the season for example.

It's almost as if cars make a big difference in performance.

That being said, it's true that drivers don't stay at an exactly constant level every year. I can accept that maybe Sainz is performing a bit better in the McLaren now and maybe at the level of Hulkenberg now, or maybe even slightly better. It's not like he was miles off the Hulk last year, he can have improved a little in a different environment. But him now being suddenly miles better than the driver who beat him last year? Ehhh find that real hard to believe.

Edited by noikeee, 16 August 2019 - 14:29.


#285 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,604 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 16 August 2019 - 14:34

Exactly my point.
 
Same for Raikkonen. 
 
Both Sainz and Raikkonen are getting pretty decent results this year. But there is not proper benchmark. Are they suddenly better than last year? Possibly, but hard to tell. How good is the car? We don't really know.
 
What we do know is that Hulkenberg, for the first time actually, seems to have a team mate that is just a little bit quicker than him. Hulk had most team mates either covered, or was at least their equal in terms of pace. Now that he has a proper benchmark, we finally get to see that he actually is a decent mid field driver, but not a super start. 


With Renault and Force India performing less solid than last year, that's an instant 4 places batter than last year for a few drivers like Sainz & Raikkonen.....
Or indeed: entering the top 10 and scoring points .....
 
People focus way too much on results only.



Reanult and ForceIndia/Racing point are performing worse than last year. That's 4 spots won for both Sains and Raikkonen.
Or: more crucially: More point scores .....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 16 August 2019 - 14:38.


#286 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,604 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 16 August 2019 - 14:37

Indeed, I think Hartley was better than it showed last year. He had a lot of misfortune and first lap issues. Also, for my feeling he was the performance guinea pig for Honda and therefor receiving more engine penalties. Gasly was more the reliability testing, but that observation could be just my perception. I really like the driving style of Hartley to be honest.



Gasly had that what appears nowadays to be a fluke in Bahrein. We simply will never know if Hartley within any of those races in which he was eliminated in the first lap could have scored a similar result, maybe even one or a few more than Gasly did. But he was denied a number of chances to show what he was capable off and branded not good enough because of that....

#287 MKSixer

MKSixer
  • Member

  • 339 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 16 August 2019 - 14:43

You still going? Lmao whatever you wanna believe, Max has car control on a level never seen previously in F1. Looks like we have God driving for Red Bull.

Lucky them!

Not sure if serious.  :well:



#288 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 11,966 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 16 August 2019 - 15:02

It's interesting how Hulk outperformed Sainz last year in the same car but now of all sudden people rate Sainz as 3rd and Hulk as 14th best driver of the season. Makes you wonder if the performance swing between these two really has been so big or people's perception is just screwed big time by things like particular cars being less or more competitive than expected before the season for example.

 

You are absoutely correct. Unfortunately that's how the ratings work, and have always worked. Some get overhyped due to "favorable circumstances", others go into "invisible mode" despite performing as good as ever, but just stuck in a wrong place at the wrong time. All this gets repeated each year, whoever becomes the new flavour of the month.

 

Well, at least going into 2020 the tables will turn again. Sainz will have high expectations (with Norris possibly improving and putting him more to shade), Hulk will have low (if he even drives for Renault any more). So time for a massive swing in perceptions once again. Let's all go aboard the hype-trains!



#289 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,951 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 16 August 2019 - 15:09

"Hulk beat Sainz" ... Sainz did underperform at the start of the season (first 3 races in particular, where Hulk scored a lot of points) and then he improved a lot and adapted much better to the car. If you re-watch carefully the 2018 season you'll see that in the final 7-8 races both drivers couldn't be closer and Sainz was even ahead sometimes.



#290 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 11,966 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 16 August 2019 - 15:21

That being said, it's true that drivers don't stay at an exactly constant level every year. I can accept that maybe Sainz is performing a bit better in the McLaren now and maybe at the level of Hulkenberg now, or maybe even slightly better. 

 

Well, considering Sainz has been outqualified by Norris, it doesn't look like he is performing better than he did last year at least in qualifying. Unless Norris is the next Senna of qualifying. So the question remains if he performs better in races than he did perform last year.



#291 CPR

CPR
  • Member

  • 5,010 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 16 August 2019 - 15:28

Well, considering Sainz has been outqualified by Norris, it doesn't look like he is performing better than he did last year at least in qualifying. Unless Norris is the next Senna of qualifying. So the question remains if he performs better in races than he did perform last year.

 

Didn't last year's Renault have the problem that it was hard on its tyres? Meaning that Renault would often go backwards in the race. That never looks good. In comparison the McLaren is generally very good on the tyres. 



#292 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 15,708 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 16 August 2019 - 16:30

Didn't last year's Renault have the problem that it was hard on its tyres? Meaning that Renault would often go backwards in the race. That never looks good. In comparison the McLaren is generally very good on the tyres.


We're talking in comparison to Norris.

#293 RekF1

RekF1
  • Member

  • 525 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 16 August 2019 - 19:58

Nah it's only been positive for Sainz that he managed to shake himself loose from the mothership.
 
Red Bull revolves around Verstappen. Gasly is going through psychological hell right now.
 
Best care scenario, Sainz would've ended up in a similar situation as Ricciardo. Who went to a worse team because he didn't like it anymore. That says it all.


If Bottas gets the bootass (forgive me) he'd barely make it to the job centre before Redbull offer him a drive. He's a solid driver who generally brings the car where it belongs. Low maintenance. Bearded.

#294 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • Member

  • 6,566 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 16 August 2019 - 20:19

"Hulk beat Sainz" ... Sainz did underperform at the start of the season (first 3 races in particular, where Hulk scored a lot of points) and then he improved a lot and adapted much better to the car. If you re-watch carefully the 2018 season you'll see that in the final 7-8 races both drivers couldn't be closer and Sainz was even ahead sometimes.


Last time I checked a season is not 7-8 races.

#295 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,604 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 16 August 2019 - 20:33

You still going? Lmao whatever you wanna believe, Max has car control on a level never seen previously in F1. Looks like we have God driving for Red Bull.

 

 

 

Funny that  you make such a statement about car control on a level never seen previously in F1. Because I have seen it once,

By the man in your avatar....



#296 Bartonz20let

Bartonz20let
  • Member

  • 937 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 16 August 2019 - 20:38

Forgive me if this has been covered but how can Max's season be considered flawless when his overtake on Leclerc was more than a bit suspect and he had a 360 spin that was fortunately quite limited in cost.

Hes been good but not perfect.

#297 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 4,708 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 16 August 2019 - 21:11

Forgive me if this has been covered but how can Max's season be considered flawless when his overtake on Leclerc was more than a bit suspect and he had a 360 spin that was fortunately quite limited in cost.

Hes been good but not perfect.

 

Non events that had no effect on his result, really? If that is the bar for judgment then nobody should be even close to him. 



#298 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 15,005 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 16 August 2019 - 21:22

Forgive me if this has been covered but how can Max's season be considered flawless when his overtake on Leclerc was more than a bit suspect and he had a 360 spin that was fortunately quite limited in cost.

Hes been good but not perfect.

Sure his season wasn't flawless (just think of a few not all too great starts and his Bahrain race was nothing special) but -to me- once he got sliding the 360 spin was perhaps the best thing he did all race and it was essential in winning the German GP.

 

The overtake on Leclerc has been discussed in other threads. I think it was very much Leclerc's mistake deliberately opening the inside of the corner to Max. He gave him all the room and closed too late.


Edited by scheivlak, 16 August 2019 - 21:22.


#299 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 15,708 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 17 August 2019 - 02:22

"Hulk beat Sainz" ... Sainz did underperform at the start of the season (first 3 races in particular, where Hulk scored a lot of points) and then he improved a lot and adapted much better to the car. If you re-watch carefully the 2018 season you'll see that in the final 7-8 races both drivers couldn't be closer and Sainz was even ahead sometimes.


Fine but even if they were level by the end of last year, I very much doubt Carlos is now the 3rd best driver whilst Nico is only the 14th.

Advertisement

#300 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,951 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:28

Fine but even if they were level by the end of last year, I very much doubt Carlos is now the 3rd best driver whilst Nico is only the 14th.

 

Well this ranking is about who performs better, not really a best-to-worst one. And yes the car/team in question and previous year position influences a lot. Renault has been very disappointing this year and should do much better than that so they get low points, McLaren the opposite.