126 replies to this topic

[BuddyHolly]

Yet again a certain team who will be unnamed do their 'dummy' pitstops which are against the rules.

 

I ask one thing only, either enforce the rules in future and apply penalties for doing this or simply scrap the rule entirely so they can all do it.

 

My thanks

 

[V8 Fireworks]

Agreed.  Making dummy pit box setups is not supposed to be allowed.

[Grundle]

Can't prove the intention

[Counterbalance]

Other teams have done it in the past. From the comments you've made in the race thread, it seems that you're not taking Hamilton's victory too well at all.

[amardeep]

I thought these were rather questionable too. The rule's a bit daft, but it's a fairly clear rule, so yes, enforce it or scrap it.

[jonpollak]

Oh come on... bait and switch is a great tactic..
I say leave it.
Jp

[Counterbalance]

I thought these were rather questionable too. The rule's a bit daft, but it's a fairly clear rule, so yes, enforce it or scrap it.

Scrap it then, its not as if its the first time we've ever seen it. It's been going on for years, practiced by a multitude of teams.

[TomNokoe]

Oh come on... bait and switch is a great tactic..
I say leave it.
Jp

+1

Adds to the fun!

[danmills]

It adds an element of surprise. No danger, just tactics. Would you expect a footballer to execute every pass with a first touch, or are dummies, tricks, turns and hesitation part of the game?

 

Keep the grapes on the vine for another week.

Edited by danmills, 04 August 2019 - 17:07.

[KeithD68]

When is a cancelled pit stop a dummy and when is it a change of plan?  How often do we see drivers told to watch what the car does in front and do the opposite - stay out of come in the pits?

 

It's a stupid, pointless and unprovable rule.  Scrap it.

Edited by KeithD68, 04 August 2019 - 17:08.

[MasterOfCoin]

Agreed.  Making dummy pit box setups is not supposed to be allowed.

The only ones being fooled are Crofty and Brundle....the other teams don't really care......

[statman]

of all the things to worry about in F1....

 

 

...this one is about last on my list.

[BuddyHolly]

Other teams have done it in the past. From the comments you've made in the race thread, it seems that you're not taking Hamilton's victory too well at all.

I'm sorry mate but check out my posting history, I will not hide the fact I am tired of the Merc domination but I have nothing against Lewis and 99% of my comments about him in particular are very positive. I admire him and his driving skill

[Clatter]

It adds an element of surprise. No danger, just tactics. Would you expect a footballer to execute every pass with a first touch, or are dummies, tricks, turns and hesitation part of the game?

 

Keep the grapes on the vine for another week.

 

One of the reasons it's not supposed to be allowed is because it is considered a dangerous place to work, and that danger can be minimised by only having people out when they are actually required. Comparing it to football is utterly ridiculous.

[pitlanepalpatine]

It's a bit like the team orders rule back in the day. you can't really prove it and it's expected behaviour anyway so it's pretty much a waste of space in the rulebook. Could be something useful there...like a drawing of marbles or something.

[Tsarwash]

One of the reasons it's not supposed to be allowed is because it is considered a dangerous place to work, and that danger can be minimised by only having people out when they are actually required. Comparing it to football is utterly ridiculous.

If pitstops are considered too dangerous then get rid of them entirely. The danger can be fully minimised by removing them. Oh wait, people like pitstops. 

[peggle]

Ah yes the rules, which seem to be different depending on nationality of driver and level of support 🤣

[NixxxoN]

What is exactly the problem with them? I dont get it

[Clatter]

When is a cancelled pit stop a dummy and when is it a change of plan?  How often do we see drivers told to watch what the car does in front and do the opposite - stay out of come in the pits?

 

It's a stupid, pointless and unprovable rule.  Scrap it.

 

My solution would be that the mechanics can't leave the garage until the car has entered the pit lane.

[THEWALL]

Remove pit stops entirely. One tyre that can be pushed hard the whole race and...oh wait...

[BuddyHolly]

What is exactly the problem with them? I dont get it

The "problem" is that it is supposed to be against the rules (for any team that does it!)  if they are not willing to enforce it or don't see it as important (which is fine) then just delete the rule and then there's no confusion?

[PayasYouRace]

I think the only way to effectively enforce such a ban would be to have a rule that other racing series have which is to not allow mechanics out of the garage until the car has come to a complete stop in the box.

[Clatter]

If pitstops are considered too dangerous then get rid of them entirely. The danger can be fully minimised by removing them. Oh wait, people like pitstops. 

 

We can fully minimise the danger by banning motorsport. There is no need to take things to the absolute degree, but minimise unnecessary risks. Personally I would follow Indycars lead and keep the numbers down. There really is no need to have 20 odd people around the car.

Edited by Clatter, 04 August 2019 - 17:24.

[MikeV1987]

Shouldn’t even be a rule anyway.

[timmy bolt]

Its fine. Leave as is.
It mostly unenforceable because its impossible to know the difference between a change of plan and a dummy but at the same time the rules means teams will use sparingly (if they use it at all, I've never heard it work).

Also I think teams would be very reluctant to use a dummy as things stand, imagine if something were to happen and a mechanic was hurt or worse? A review of radio messages might sink a team of it turns out to be a dummy. Like it or not, at the very least the current rules prob minimise its use which is overall good for safety.

Edited by timmy bolt, 04 August 2019 - 17:22.

[PayasYouRace]

We can fully minimise the danger by banning motorsport. There is no need to take things to the absolute degree, but minimise unnecessary risks. Personally I would fully Indycars lead and keep the numbers down. There really is no need to have 20 odd people around the car.

 

You only need 6. One for each jack and one for each wheel.

[Clatter]

You only need 6. One for each jack and one for each wheel.

 

Totally agree. They won't do it because they don't like to copy Indy, plus the sport likes to show off with the quick pitstops.

[Kalmake]

Yet again a certain team who will be unnamed do their 'dummy' pitstops which are against the rules.

 

I ask one thing only, either enforce the rules in future and apply penalties for doing this or simply scrap the rule entirely so they can all do it.

 

My thanks

What makes you think they can't all do it?

 

It is against the sporting regs, but as we know stewards can and do allow things that are against the regs. I haven't seen anything suggesting any team has been favored in this.

[Tsarwash]

Totally agree. They won't do it because they don't like to copy Indy, plus the sport likes to show off with the quick pitstops.

I think that it is more dangerous to have excess wheels knocking around in the pitlane. 

 

But of course if they actually gave a **** about pitlane safety we wouldn't see unsafe released effectively allowed. I think that is far more dangerous than dummy stops. 

[NixxxoN]

The "problem" is that it is supposed to be against the rules (for any team that does it!)  if they are not willing to enforce it or don't see it as important (which is fine) then just delete the rule and then there's no confusion?

Yeah I'm for deleting the rule but I dont see what would that change exactly

[djparky]

Oh come on... bait and switch is a great tactic..
I say leave it.
Jp

Totally agree...

[Pimpwerx]

I think it's open for interpretation to prevent teams from just camping in the pitlane to make adjacent stops more difficult. A headfake can just as easily be interpreted as a change of plan, and in the case of Lewis chasing Max, there were multiple changes of plan. The team has to be ready before the driver turns into the pit exit, in order to minimize time on the stop, so if they tell the driver to stay out one more lap at the last minute, it's going to result in what looks like gamesmanship. It's really hard to interpret, and it would be stupid to officiate that you can't leave the garage unless you definitely stop. That would ruin many on-track battles. 

 

I think the rule is fine as is, because you don't hear teams whining about it. When it's only a few disgruntled fans complaining, then it means the rule is fine, because it gives the stewards the right to punish the blatant attempts at sabotaging another team's efforts, while allowing some cat and mouse to play out both on track, and in the paddock. The rule isn't designed to prevent cat and mouse games, it's designed to prevent out and out foul play. If anything, I think Mercedes had a stronger case against them a year or two ago, when they setup completely next to Ferrari, causing a slightly slower stop, while not pitting a car. I believe they pitted the next time around, though, which probably strengthened their case, but that was a more appropriate time to complain.

[KeithD68]

My solution would be that the mechanics can't leave the garage until the car has entered the pit lane.

 

If statistically pitstops are dangerous then yes.  But how do they compare with working on an oil rig, or carrier flight deck, or in construction, logging, fishing, roofing?  I suspect very low. 

Edited by KeithD68, 04 August 2019 - 17:44.

[nookie]

rubbish. this is more the team wanting/preparing for a pit stop that might or might not happen. there's no "faking" going on here. why in heavens name would mercedes "fake" a pitstop after max had made his? seriously!

[Clatter]

If statistically pitstops are dangerous then yes.  But how do they compare with working on an oil rig, or carrier flight deck, or in construction, logging, fishing, roofing?  I suspect very low. 

 

That could well be correct, but is a complete red herring.

[beachdrifter]

Charlie Whiting explained this rule a while back perfectly. What Merc did was not against the rules. They wanted to have that strategic option available at that moment. 

 

Whiting explained the point of the rule is that you don't want to have mechanics in the pitlane all the time that don't need to be there (safety). 

 

They don't want to take strategic options away from the teams with that rule, so it's totally fine to prepare for a stop and then call it off depending on what the opposition does. 

 

They would only take issue with that if a) the mechanics stayed in the pitlane lap after lap or b) they would continue to come out and get back time and time again, with it being obvious that they're not even thinking about making a real stop, just wanting to confuse other teams.

 

So what Merc did was well within the interpretation of that rule. Other teams do the same thing of course.

Edited by beachdrifter, 04 August 2019 - 18:03.

[Kalmake]

If statistically pitstops are dangerous then yes.  But how do they compare with working on an oil rig, or carrier flight deck, or in construction, logging, fishing, roofing?  I suspect very low. 

Make sure to count the working hours per year.

[ANF]

Charlie Whiting explained this rule a while back perfectly. What Merc did was not against the rules. They wanted to have that strategic option available at that moment. 
 
Whiting explained the point of the rule is that you don't want to have mechanics in the pitlane all the time that don't need to be there (safety). 
 
They don't want to take strategic options away from the teams with that rule, so it's totally fine to prepare for a stop and then call it off depending on what the opposition does.
 
They would only take issue with that if a) the mechanics stayed in the pitlane lap after lap or b) they would continue to come out and get back time and time again, with it being obvious that they're not even thinking about making a real stop, just wanting to confuse other teams.
 
So what Merc did was well within the interpretation of that rule. Other teams do the same thing of course.

Which is what Mercedes seemed to be doing today.

[Kalmake]

My solution would be that the mechanics can't leave the garage until the car has entered the pit lane.

All teams wouldn't have enough time to prepare.

[Tsarwash]

Which is what Mercedes seemed to be doing today.

They did it twice, yeah ? 

[KWSN - DSM]

I have not been paying attention, did not know was not allowed, it should be allowed as an added strategy for the other teams to bite on or not.

 

[ANF]

They did it twice, yeah ?

It felt like three times. At least.

[Knowlesy]

It’s truly the biggest issue of our times.

[beachdrifter]

Which is what Mercedes seemed to be doing today.

Not at all. There was no excessive behaviour that the rule tries to prevent, and a stop at that point would have made strategic sense, as well.

So much so that the announcers wondered why they didn't stop, and that they should have stopped then.

Edited by beachdrifter, 04 August 2019 - 18:19.

[ANF]

Not at all. There was no excessive behaviour that the rule tries to prevent, and a stop at that point would have made strategic sense, as well.

So much so that the announcers wondered why they didn't stop, and that they should have stopped then.

Bad announcers.

Anyway, this is from 2015:
 

Formula 1 teams will be warned by the FIA that any repeat of the kind of 'dummy' pitstop that Mercedes conducted in the British Grand Prix will not be tolerated, Motorsport.com can reveal.

Mercedes was locked in a tight duel with Williams for the lead of the British Grand Prix when it tried to fool rivals Williams into making an earlier stop than ideal.
...
The governing body has revealed that it will adopt a zero tolerance approach to the matter, and will tell teams in a briefing ahead of the Hungarian Grand Prix that any repeat in the future will be viewed as a rules breach.

Under repeat circumstances, teams will have to prove to the FIA that there was a genuine reason for them to stop if they are to escape sanction.

This will include radio communication evidence to show that the driver was under the impression he was to make a stop.

The FIA spokesman added: "Going into the pitlane like this, for no valid reason, is not allowed but the difficulty would be proving it was a clear breach.

"We have no intention of giving them a few chances and will be speaking to all the teams in Hungary about this and warning them that we will want to see (and hear) evidence that they were actually intending to stop."

https://www.motorspo...s-trick/614955/

[beachdrifter]

Bad announcers.

Anyway, this is from 2015:

 

 

Way past its due date. 

 

From 2018: 

 

"FIA race director Charlie Whiting says he isn’t concerned about pit crews occasionally appearing in the pits when their drivers do not make pit stops.

 

Article 28.12 of the Sporting Regulations states “team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before they are required to work on a car and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.” However it is not uncommon to see team members appear in the pits without their driver makring a pit stop, potentially to dupe a rival into thinking they are about to pit.

 

Whiting, who as race director has the power to report incidents to the stewards, was asked about Mercedes doing so during the last race, and said he isn’t concerned about the practice:

 

“It was clear they could have been stopping. Whether they had any intention to do it I don’t know. The rule’s in place purely to stop people hanging around all the time if you remember they used to be out in the pit lane nearly all the time. I think it works pretty well. They all play little games occasionally."

 

[...] I think that’s all part of the show.” 

Edited by beachdrifter, 04 August 2019 - 18:45.

[Spillage]

Don't think it should be illegal to be honest. I dunno if it actually worked anyway. Red Bull certainly didn't bite.

[Retrofly]

Remove the rule, you can't prove intent and no one cares anyway.

Unless you don't like the driver/team who did it. Grrrrrrr

Edited by Retrofly, 04 August 2019 - 19:08.

[ensign14]

One of the reasons it's not supposed to be allowed is because it is considered a dangerous place to work, and that danger can be minimised by only having people out when they are actually required.

 

And yet sending a car out into the side of another car in said dangerous space is only worth a fine. 

 

In this particular instance, there was a radio broadcast not long after the phantom stop with Hamilton saying his tyres were fine.  I thought perhaps the plan was for a stop there and then but Hamilton overruled it.  Given the delay for radio broadcast it's a possibility.

[PayasYouRace]

And yet sending a car out into the side of another car in said dangerous space is only worth a fine. 

 

In this particular instance, there was a radio broadcast not long after the phantom stop with Hamilton saying his tyres were fine.  I thought perhaps the plan was for a stop there and then but Hamilton overruled it.  Given the delay for radio broadcast it's a possibility.

 

We've got a thread for that. But the FIA announced that they go that one wrong anyway and it should have been a time penalty.