93 replies to this topic

[Bleu]

Unless you think that breaking front wing was Bottas's own fault that's pretty harsh.

Not saying it was good race in any means as the progress wasn't very strong after the early pit stop. Around 6 would be acceptable grade.

[scheivlak]

Unless you think that breaking front wing was Bottas's own fault that's pretty harsh.

Not saying it was good race in any means as the progress wasn't very strong after the early pit stop. Around 6 would be acceptable grade.

According to https://www.autospor...ated-verstappen it was at least more Bottas' fault than Leclerc's: 

 

"Initially, it seemed Leclerc had emphatically chopped across Bottas's nose, so it was a surprise that the stewards took no action. But later, FIA race director Michael Masi explained that the overhead view showed Bottas actually moved to the right - and so it did. What actually happened was Leclerc moved left to pin Bottas to the inside, but it was the drift of the Mercedes to the right that caused the contact - and resulting front wing damage."

[Gorma]

According to https://www.autospor...ated-verstappen it was at least more Bottas' fault than Leclerc's: 

 

"Initially, it seemed Leclerc had emphatically chopped across Bottas's nose, so it was a surprise that the stewards took no action. But later, FIA race director Michael Masi explained that the overhead view showed Bottas actually moved to the right - and so it did. What actually happened was Leclerc moved left to pin Bottas to the inside, but it was the drift of the Mercedes to the right that caused the contact - and resulting front wing damage."

Well that is a bunch of BS.  When Leclerc went right there was a car wide gap between the two cars. Leclerc then came back to the left. Bottas didn't suddenly drift a car length to the right.

 

 

[Arundo]

Agreed, clearly Leclerc at fault here why is he moving to the right for that corner ? Strange move again by Leclerc. 

[robefc]

Well that is a bunch of BS.  When Leclerc went right there was a car wide gap between the two cars. Leclerc then came back to the left. Bottas didn't suddenly drift a car length to the right.
 

 

Have you seen the overhead shot referred to in the article?

I haven't, I'm assuming it paints a different picture.

[mclara]

Have you seen the overhead shot referred to in the article?

I haven't, I'm assuming it paints a different picture.

Very unlikley. It is pretty clear who moved where and where not from these two pictures. This isn't rocket sience but the race director probably confused Leclerc with Vettel

 

I also noticed how Leclerc moved suddenly to the left on the overhead reply right after the incident.

Edited by mclara, 05 August 2019 - 10:17.

[Vesuvius]

Have you seen the overhead shot referred to in the article?

I haven't, I'm assuming it paints a different picture.

It doesn't change it at all, Leclerc is the only one doing wrong.

[Sarkis]

In those shots, if anything, Bottas is a fraction closer to the left edge of the track than before in the second shot...

Edited by Sarkis, 05 August 2019 - 10:19.

[itsgreen84]

 
 
Looked at it, there was a slight movement also from Bottas...

Edited by itsgreen84, 05 August 2019 - 10:40.

[NixxxoN]

 

 

 

Looked at it, there was a slight movement also from Bottas...

 

They were approaching a slight right hand corner or bend so its normal that Bottas steered a bit right to prepare for the upcoming left hander...

 

Stewards thought of that as racing incident but Leclerc was 100% af ault

[Marklar]

That's the heli shot I'm assuming



 

They were approaching a slight right hand corner or bend so its normal that Bottas steered a bit right to prepare for the upcoming left hander...

Yeah, but he is at that point already behind Leclerc, you cant just prepare the corner as if nobody was there

(not saying that Bottas did something wrong here, but just that this argument is a tad irrelevant in this discussion)

[ANF]

Well that is a bunch of BS.  When Leclerc went right there was a car wide gap between the two cars. Leclerc then came back to the left. Bottas didn't suddenly drift a car length to the right.
 

 

Have you seen the overhead shot referred to in the article?

I haven't, I'm assuming it paints a different picture.

Here's the overhead shot: https://www.formula1...c_on_Lap_1.html

The two of them moved towards each other: Leclerc moved left, Bottas moved right (to a lesser extent than Leclerc).

Two cropped and magnified frames:

Edited by ANF, 05 August 2019 - 10:50.

[Ivanhoe]

Right call by the stewards for me.

[NixxxoN]

That's the heli shot I'm assuming



 

Yeah, but he is at that point already behind Leclerc, you cant just prepare the corner as if nobody was there

(not saying that Bottas did something wrong here, but just that this argument is a tad irrelevant in this discussion)

 

Leclerc was in the very middle of the track when he should've been in the right (thats where the racing line is), and Bottas was so much to the left and also out of position and far away from the racing line because he had nowhere else to go.

I dont think there's an doubt about who is to blame, I dont know why there's even a discussion, but maybe thats just me...

[scheivlak]

Leclerc was in the very middle of the track when he should've been in the right (thats where the racing line is)

If everybody has to keep to the racing line nobody will ever make a pass..... As you'll see Bottas is on the racing line (though a bit swerving strangely).

 

Leclerc is there to make a pass and succeeds. Then, when he almost fully ahead, Bottas makes a slight move to the right. 

Edited by scheivlak, 05 August 2019 - 11:17.

[Myrvold]

That heli-shot looks like a completely different incident, I know it obviously isn't, but it looks like it.

 

On a sidenote, it might just be because Leclerc have had some races in a row now with things happening, but did he use to do this stuff pre-Austria?

[Diablobb81]

If everybody has to keep to the racing line nobody will ever make a pass..... As you'll see Bottas is on the racing line (though a bit swerving strangely).

 

Leclerc is there to make a pass and succeeds. Then, when he almost fully ahead, Bottas makes a slight move to the right. 

 

Did you miss the part were Leclerc made a sudden, big move to the left?

[Heyli]

Wings can get clipped quite easily at the start... Tad unlucky. Maybe a bit more Leclerc´s fault, but a racing incident nonetheless.

[NixxxoN]

If everybody has to keep to the racing line nobody will ever make a pass..... As you'll see Bottas is on the racing line (though a bit swerving strangely).

 

Leclerc is there to make a pass and succeeds. Then, when he almost fully ahead, Bottas makes a slight move to the right. 

 

Oh and Leclerc didn't do that unnecessary move even further to the left?

Bottas thought Leclerc wouldn't move like that which is the obvious thing, along with starting to move to the right to prepare for T4 left hander (have to move to the right to do it properly)

[A3]

Did you miss the part were Leclerc made a sudden, big move to the left?

From the heli shot it doesn't look that sudden. Charles is going towards the racing line while leaving enough space for Bottas. It is Bottas who moves to the right, no idea why he did that.

The incident was looked at by race control but in the end it was decided that neither driver had done anything wrong in the situation.
Masi later explained that it was only an overhead camera shot taken from a helicopter that offered a proper perspective of what happened - and that the indications were that it was Bottas who had moved towards Leclerc.

[Roadhouse]

Overhead doesn't paint the right picture imho. Erratic movements should be judged by the racing line, not by the direction of that specific piece of track.

It's like when you go straight ahead in a right hander, technically you're going straight ahead, but line wise you're actually turning left.

Don't think it should've been a penalty though, but Leclerc is kinda pushing it lately, wonder if other drivers (namely midfielders) would've gotten away with it as well.

Edited by Roadhouse, 05 August 2019 - 11:38.

[A3]

Overhead doesn't paint the right picture imho.

Actually it does. Yes, Leclerc moves back, but there was always enough room for Bottas. But Bottas moves right, which is clear as day in the overhead shot. He moves right when he has full view on Leclerc who is on the process of overtaking him. Why on earth move towards the guy who is moving towards you?

Edited by A3, 05 August 2019 - 11:41.

[Roadhouse]

Actually it does. Yes, Leclerc moves back, but there was always enough room for Bottas. But Bottas moves right, which is clear as day in the overhead shot. He moves right when he has full view on Leclerc who is on the process of overtaking him. Why on earth move towards the guy who is moving towards you?

 

I guess because he didn't expect Leclerc to turn relatively left.

[screamingV16]

It was sloppy by Leclerc a bit Vettel-esque even, not really penalty worthy though. Leclerc is a lot less experienced and has shown some real skill behind the wheel this year, but he's going to have to up his game if he wants to compete on Verstappen/Hamilton's level in next few years.

[A3]

I guess because he didn't expect Leclerc to turn relatively left.

F1 driver doesn't expect rival to move to the racing line.


Ok.
Bottas had the best seat in the house to see Leclerc moving towards him.

[RedRabbit]

Right call by the stewards. These cars are nearly 6m long now with almost zero rearward visibility. Charles obviously believed he was completely in front of Bottas, but his drift to the left looked like a defensive move to make sure Bottas stayed there.

Once behind, it should be up to Bottas then to make sure he doesn't lose his front wing against the rear of Leclerc. The red car is easily visible to Bottas while Leclerc wont be able to see the Merc.

[Pimpwerx]

Racing incident. I thought after the first reply in-race, that Leclerc was simply moving to the racing line, having completed the move, and now it appears that was correct. Bottas moved slightly right, which suggests that Leclerc would have cleared Bottas (only just) had that input not been made by Bottas. I think it was very unfortunate, and ruined Bottas' race, but I can't see this as anything more than a racing incident. This stuff happens all the time, and no one cares much. The contact was very slight, and the move wasn't particularly aggressive. Just bad luck IMO.

[Roadhouse]

F1 driver doesn't expect rival to move to the racing line.


Ok.
Bottas had the best seat in the house to see Leclerc moving towards him.

 

So, why do you think he moved right? Because this F1 driver apparently made a bigger mistake than I thought he did.

Looking at it again, Bottas might've stuck to the normal racing line without accounting for Leclerc to do what he did, possibly because he focused on the Merc ahead.

 

Reminds me of Kvyat making the same mistake as Albon directly infront of him. Not saying either Merc made a mistake, just that drivers could tend to subconsciously mirror the car directly ahead.

[A3]

To me it looks like Hamilton moved right on a different part of the track than Bottas did. I have no explanation for his move other than brain fade.

[Garndell]

Nailed on LeClerc    at fault, should have been a 5s penalty for causing a collision.  He has no defense for moving across the track away from the racing line to impede a competitor via contact.

 

Stewards as usual being muppets by not "investigating" it, Masi later saying they used onboards which were deceptive rather than the helicopter shot is utterly negligent but standard fare for the FIA.

[keeppari]

Good call IMO. There was plenty of room for Bottas on the left side of the track. A bit dumb/risky move from LeClerc to push it, he would've looked like a muppet if the contact had caused a puncture.

[derstatic]

On the photo's from Vettel's onboard it looks like Lec is cutting Bottas of quite harshly. Agree with Stewards though that the Heli shows a more nuanced picture. Definately not saying it's Bottas' fault but much more a racing incident than anything worth a penalty. Imo it's nothing nasty from Lec, he's just drifting his car slightly left to compromise Bottas' entry to the T4 left hander and make sure he stays behind. Half a car's width left for Bottas. At the same time Bottas tries to move back right to get the best line. Slight contact. These things happen on first laps.

[BuddyHolly]

I'd put it down as a racing incident, the stewards made the right call for once.

[jacdaniel]

LeClerc is one of more dirty drivers on the grid. Look at his suicide run in Monte Carlo. His aggressive defending in Silverstone. Hit Bottas yesterday. Nearly hit Vettel as well but I’m sure he was told not to

[bernardv]

Just more Leclerc bashing, usual stuff. If for example Max would do the same thing you guys would go "... uh....ah...what brilliant driving on the edge, Bottas had plenty space...".

 

Yawn. 

[pRy]

bernandv: Are you sure? I thought it wasn't too long ago Max was regarded as reckless and a collision causer on here.

 

Anyway it looks like the right call and an interesting example of how the on board shots aren't always the best at concluding who is to blame in a collision. 

Edited by pRy, 05 August 2019 - 15:43.

[statman]

Race director Masi: Onboard shots a 'distorted' view of Leclerc/Bottas clash

 

 

https://www.motorspo...ian-gp/4508639/

[tormave]

The impact that killed Bottas' front wing was obviously LeClerc's fault. Had he not squeezed Bottas, nothing would've happened. Having said that, I don't think it was severe enough to warrant a penalty. Bottas had room to avoid the collision, but probably just didn't expect the move where LeClerc made it. 

[Atreiu]

WTF was Leclerc thinking?

[bernardv]

@pRy I was refering to the general sentiment on this thread i.e. forum, not the Autosport article on this topic.

 

What Max was doing before this year was often plain stupid aggression, but now he got a bit wiser and what he does is now tolerated. Apparently F1 wants him as the next big star. Charles just adjusted his style from being a bit soft to what the stewards are now allowing to pass. Blaming him for being dirty without seeing the big picture ... 

[andrewf1]

Aerial vs. on-board.

 

The part about the "distortion" is probably referring to the fact that Vettel moved right and so Leclerc's move to the left seems exaggerated on the onboard camera.

But still, I don't know why Leclerc was doing moving to the left side of the track before a left-hander. He was in the middle of the race track, then briefly moved left off the racing line, seemingly in order to intimidate Bottas.

 

[jcbc3]

Racing incident. As much as Bottas was unlucky, Leclerc was lucky that he didn't pick up a puncture himself. Which imo doesn't make Leclerc guilty of a punishable offense, but his team should still tell him not to ride that close to fire again.

[djparky]

Simple first lap racing incident, dont see why there needs to be any micro analysis of it

[MikeTekRacing]

Unlucky racing incident. LeClerc's fault but not worth of anything more than just saying that. he took  a big useless chance at a puncture there

[Ijsman]

Bottas was behind and had a better view of what was happening. Even then he steered right into Leclerc, who was defending the space to the right (which includes the racing line and then some) by adjusting his line to the left for the next left corner. Leclerc left enough space.

[MikeTekRacing]

Bottas was behind and had a better view of what was happening. Even then he steered right into Leclerc, who was defending the space to the right (which includes the racing line and then some) by adjusting his line to the left for the next left corner. Leclerc left enough space.

the speed differential was huge. it was clear to both drivers

both of them made "deadly" assumptions.

- leclerc assumed bottas was already cleared

- bottas assumed leclerc will completely keep his line as it was obvious he wouldn't be a threat in T4. 

 

Just a scew up from both, as I said, LeClerc played a bit with fire, risking a puncture without any reward at the end of that risk. He was going to pass no matter what line he was taking. I think it was more on LeClerc, as he is doing the bigger movement

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 05 August 2019 - 16:32.

[OneLapWonder]

From the heli shot it doesn't look that sudden. Charles is going towards the racing line while leaving enough space for Bottas. It is Bottas who moves to the right, no idea why he did that.

 

Because he is trying to fend off, and therefore probably focusing on, Vettel. It's more clear from the helicopter angle; there was a risk of Vettel coming alongside before corner entry.

 

Edit: Nevertheless Leclerc also moves unnecessarily to the left. 'Racing incident' therefore suffices. 

Edited by OneLapWonder, 05 August 2019 - 16:36.

[jwill189]

LeClerc trying to emulate Vettel in track awareness is not a good thing.

[ArrowsLivery]

I don’t think that was penalty worthy by Leclerc but he’s becoming one of the least likable drivers on the grid both with his comments and actions on track.

[A3]

According to https://www.autospor...ated-verstappen it was at least more Bottas' fault than Leclerc's: 
 
"Initially, it seemed Leclerc had emphatically chopped across Bottas's nose, so it was a surprise that the stewards took no action. But later, FIA race director Michael Masi explained that the overhead view showed Bottas actually moved to the right - and so it did. What actually happened was Leclerc moved left to pin Bottas to the inside, but it was the drift of the Mercedes to the right that caused the contact - and resulting front wing damage."

Exactly this, so I'm baffled by the poll results.

Edited by A3, 05 August 2019 - 19:28.