93 replies to this topic

[A3]

But still, I don't know why Leclerc was doing moving to the left side of the track before a left-hander. He was in the middle of the race track, then briefly moved left off the racing line, seemingly in order to intimidate Bottas.

Are you serious? Look at where Hamilton is driving in front of them, the track kinks to the right before the left hander. The left side of the track is the racing line.

[Lights]

Seeing the overhead shot properly now, I have to come back on what I said earlier that it was Leclerc's fault. I now think it's a racing incident.

 

What some people don't seem to understand about that corner is that even though it's a left-hander, you don't want to approach it from the right.

You'd end up still turning slightly right while braking for a left-hander which will unsettle the car. That's why cars approach it from the left.

 

The distorted view from Vettel's onboard indeed makes it look like Leclerc is overly aggressive, but the overhead camera makes it look quite ok. It was just unfortunate both moved at the same time.

 

Where I do disagree on with Masi is "it was the drift of the Mercedes to the right that caused the contact". Bottas, like Leclerc, was also just trying to place his car in a better position. They make it sound as if they place it all on Bottas which is also not fair, because he really didn't move much and the fact that they moved towards each other is what caused the incident - a racing incident, where Leclerc ended up lucky and Bottas unlucky.

[A3]

Where I do disagree on with Masi is "it was the drift of the Mercedes to the right that caused the contact". Bottas, like Leclerc, was also just trying to place his car in a better position. They make it sound as if they place it all on Bottas which is also not fair, because he really didn't move much and the fact that they moved towards each other is what caused the incident - a racing incident, where Leclerc ended up lucky and Bottas unlucky.

Masi is correct. Hamilton was on the far left of the track, which again is the racing line. There's no excuse for Bottas to move right when the car in front is still moving left towards the racing line, leaving a car width of space. He should have waited with moving until Leclerc had cleared him.

Edited by A3, 05 August 2019 - 20:08.

[realracer200]

Leclerc's fault clearly.

[Marklar]

Something tells me that Bottas already gave up on Leclerc and wanted to take Vettel's momentum but timed it a bit too early, otherwise moving to the right doesnt make any sense there.

[Lights]

Masi is correct. Hamilton was on the far left of the track, which again is the racing line. There's no excuse for Bottas to move right when the car in front is still moving left towards the racing line, leaving a car width of space.

 

No, in the heli shot you can see Hamilton move right at an earlier point than Bottas does. The moment Bottas moves right does make sense for him considering the line into T4.

 

[A3]

Leclerc's fault clearly.

I love these kind of replies when I just took some time to explain why Leclerc wasn't at fault. How can any driver with 95% of his car past his rival be at fault for moving to the racing line with a car's width to spare? It's the task of the driver behind to avoid contact, it's not like he was pushed off the track.

[A3]

No, in the heli shot you can see Hamilton move right at an earlier point than Bottas does. The moment Bottas moves right does make sense for him considering the line into T4.
 

It still doesn't give Bottas the right to try and follow his own line. As he's in the proces of being overtaken, he should have waited to turn right. With 95% of his car past, Leclerc was allowed to chose his line, not Bottas.

[Lights]

It still doesn't give Bottas the right to try and follow his own line. As he's in the proces of being overtaken, he should have waited to turn right. With 95% of his car past, Leclerc was allowed to chose his line, not Bottas.

 

Yeah I disagree with that, because on a straight any part alongside means you have to leave da space.

 

https://f1metrics.wo...ules-of-racing/

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

 

Therefore Leclerc wasn't allowed to 'choose his line'. He had as much right on the racing line as Bottas did.

[MikeTekRacing]

Something tells me that Bottas already gave up on Leclerc and wanted to take Vettel's momentum but timed it a bit too early, otherwise moving to the right doesnt make any sense there.

he clearly realized that. If you look at speed difference between LeClerc and and him - no way he could defend before the corner, no matter what line.

The move not needed was LeClerc going to left - he also had nothing ot worry, as Bottas was not going to be a threat

[A3]

Yeah I disagree with that, because on a straight any part alongside means you have to leave da space.
 
https://f1metrics.wo...ules-of-racing/
20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.
 
Therefore Leclerc wasn't allowed to 'choose his line'. He had as much right on the racing line as Bottas did.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be misinterpreting what's written here. Leclerc had 95% of his car alongside (the car attempting to pass), so Bottas as the defending driver lost any right to the racing line.

[A3]

The move not needed was LeClerc going to left - he also had nothing ot worry, as Bottas was not going to be a threat

Uhm, he was moving back towards the racing line and never even got fully there. Why wouldn't he try to approach the fast left kink in the best way possible?

[MikeTekRacing]

Uhm, he was moving back towards the racing line and never even got fully there. Why wouldn't he try to approach the fast left kink in the best way possible?

because there was still a car there?

[Ivanhoe]

This surely was not defending on a straight by Leclerc, he was the attacking car having the job done and lining up for the next corner.

[Ivanhoe]

because there was still a car there?

And there was enough room for that car hadn’t Bottas moved to the right. Looks to me Bottas was looking at Leclerc and at Vettel behind him and mis-timed his move to the right.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 05 August 2019 - 20:47.

[Lights]

I'm sorry, but you seem to be misinterpreting what's written here. Leclerc had 95% of his car alongside (the car attempting to pass), so Bottas as the defending driver lost any right to the racing line.

 

How is that written anywhere? It's not.

 

After Leclerc got in front, on the approach to T4 Bottas is the attacking driver. It completely irrelevant that Leclerc just overtook Bottas 2 seconds earlier.

 

Bottas is still there alongside, and Leclerc can't just drive into him claiming he has right on the racing line.

Edited by Lights, 05 August 2019 - 20:50.

[MikeTekRacing]

And there was enough room for that car hadn’t Bottas moved to the right. Looks to me Bottas was looking at Leclerc and at Vettel behind him and mis-timed his move to the right.

Yes, both cars wanted the same piece of tarmac. Hence a racing incident. Bottas was not defending anything. LeClerc was squeezed him. Not breaking the rules, but unnecessarily. Still a racing incident, but what I say is that LeClerc should have been the smarter one here

[Ivanhoe]

Yes, both cars wanted the same piece of tarmac. Hence a racing incident. Bottas was not defending anything. LeClerc was squeezed him. Not breaking the rules, but unnecessarily. Still a racing incident, but what I say is that LeClerc should have been the smarter one here

Completely agree. Racing incident for me as well. Not sure who was the smartest though, Bottas had the best seat and could see Leclerc coming, still think he mis-timed it a bit.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 05 August 2019 - 20:55.

[MikeTekRacing]

This surely was not defending on a straight by Leclerc, he was the attacking car having the job done and lining up for the next corner.

well, he didn't have the job done, as there was still a car alongside him which he started steering towards. Either expecting it to yield, not move, or thinking he already cleared it - he moved towards another car. Not so smart.

[A3]

How is that written anywhere? It's not.
 
After Leclerc got in front, on the approach to T4 Bottas is the attacking driver. It completely irrelevant that Leclerc just overtook Bottas 2 seconds earlier.
 
Bottas is still there alongside, and Leclerc can't just drive into him claiming he has right on the racing line.

The overtake hadn't been completed yet, as Leclerc was still in the process of passing.
And I don't see how Bottas suddenly was the attacking driver while driving slower.

But you seem to fail to see that a) Bottas moved to the right and b) Leclec left more than a car's width.

[Lights]

The overtake hadn't been completed yet, as Leclerc was still in the process of passing.
And I don't see how Bottas suddenly was the attacking driver while driving slower.

But you seem to fail to see that a) Bottas moved to the right and b) Leclec left more than a car's width.

 

The critical component is that when you're still side by side by any amount it's a risk to steer towards the car you're side by side with. Whether you want to call that the attacking driver or defending driver is actually completely irrelevant. If you read the full chapter 3. Racing alongside another car this might explain it better than just the part I copied before.

 

This wasn't on the level of Vettel's stupidity in Turkey 2010 because now it required both cars to move to create contact, but it's a similar concept. Don't move across until you're completely in front. Leclerc was extremely lucky to not get a puncture or to get completely taken out there. He was basically setting up a PIT maneuver on himself.

[A3]

This wasn't on the level of Vettel's stupidity in Turkey 2010 because now it required both cars to move to create contact, but it's a similar concept. Don't move across until you're completely in front. Leclerc was extremely lucky to not get a puncture or to get completely taken out there. He was basically setting up a PIT maneuver on himself.

Again, Leclerc moved back towards the racing line and always left enough space for Bottas. Not ever was he close to squeezing Bottas. But Bottas moved right. He moved into Leclerc who was coming towards him. So Leclerc never "moved across". Yes, he moved towards him, but then Bottas decides to move right.

[realracer200]

How can any driver with 95% of his car past his rival be at fault for moving to the racing line with a car's width to spare? It's the task of the driver behind to avoid contact, it's not like he was pushed off the track.

 

First of all he started to move before 95% of his car was past his rival and secondly just because you are ahead it doesn't mean the other guy isn't there. He can't just disappear.

[A3]

First of all he started to move before 95% of his car was past his rival and secondly just because you are ahead it doesn't mean the other guy isn't there. He can't just disappear.

aaargh. Leclerc never aqueezed Bottas, it was Bottas who moved right. No, he can't disappear, but he could have held his wheel straight.

Edited by A3, 05 August 2019 - 22:07.

[Ivanhoe]

Some in here are talking like Leclerc pushed Bottas off track. That never happened, plenty of room for Valtteri.

[Lights]

aaargh. Leclerc never aqueezed Bottas, it was Bottas who moved right. No, he can't disappear, but he could have held his wheel straight.

Everything you say is reversable:
Bottas also never squeezed Leclerc. Leclerc moved left. Leclerc could've held his wheel straight.

Both drivers moved towards each other simultaneously. That's why it's a racing incident.

[A3]

Everything you say is reversable:
Bottas also never squeezed Leclerc. Leclerc moved left. Leclerc could've held his wheel straight.

Both drivers moved towards each other simultaneously. That's why it's a racing incident.

Disagree, Leclerc moved back towards the racing line. He would have compromised the corner if he hadn’t.

[Lights]

Disagree, Leclerc moved back towards the racing line. He would have compromised the corner if he hadn’t.

Bottas moved back towards the racing line. He would have compromised the corner if he hadn’t.

[Myrvold]

Yeah I disagree with that, because on a straight any part alongside means you have to leave da space.

 

https://f1metrics.wo...ules-of-racing/

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

 

Therefore Leclerc wasn't allowed to 'choose his line'. He had as much right on the racing line as Bottas did.

That rule is removed/changed. The blogpost is 5 years old.

[ANF]

Leclerc, perhaps rather unnecessarily, put a squeeze on Bottas to show him he was coming through and make sure Bottas would lift and let him through before the fast-approaching T4.
Bottas, perhaps rather unaware of Leclerc's squeeze, let the car drift toward the right as any driver would do on the approach to the fast left-hander T4.
There was a touch. Had one of them not moved, perhaps there would not have been a touch. However, Leclerc started it, so perhaps 70 percent of the bad karma points should be given to him.

[MikeV1987]

Racing incident, they both played a part.

[Garndell]

Disagree, Leclerc moved back towards the racing line. He would have compromised the corner if he hadn’t.

 

Care to provide videos/screenshots showing cars driving like Leclerc did on lap 1 during the race to prove the racing line is there?

[HP]

IMO it's more of Bottas fault. He knew Leclerc was past and wanted to cover himself from being overtaken by Vettel and moved a bit too early to the right..

 

Bottas had a mediocre start and for several corners tried to defend himself. First from Hamilton, then from Leclerc. Looking at it from that perspective, it seems to me that Bottas was compromised (because of his start) on each and every corner up to the incident and things got worse and worse.

 

Interestingly enough, you will also find that several people first thought the wing damage came by Hamilton's overtake. Bottas was all over the show it appears, compromising his position.

 

Also it's not the first time these things happen with Bottas, Just look for example at clashes with Kimi.

[flingsofdeon]

Just a bit clumsy in the adrenaline period of the race. These are minor pieces that get ironed out by the likes of a Leclerc (like Max) when it’s utter habit being right at the sharp end every race

[A3]

Bottas moved back towards the racing line. He would have compromised the corner if he hadn’t.

But Bottas is the car just being overtaken, how on earth has he got any rights, as long as Leclerc left him enough space?

[Lights]

But Bottas is the car just being overtaken, how on earth has he got any rights, as long as Leclerc left him enough space?

 

Can you explain why Bottas has any other rights than Leclerc? Like you said earlier, Leclerc was still in the process of passing.

 

I don't understand where that thought comes from, that when they're still partially side by side, Leclerc somehow would have the right to move towards the racing line while Bottas doesn't.

[A3]

Care to provide videos/screenshots showing cars driving like Leclerc did on lap 1 during the race to prove the racing line is there?

Note that I've always said Leclerc was moving towards the racing line, I never said he was on it.

I've put 2 frames of the helicopter shot on top of each other, they're exactly at the same spot as the overhanging tree was a nice reference.

The car in the middle is Hamilton, who was on the racing line. So Leclerc was still to the right of the racing line and Bottas was to the left of it.

[Lights]

The car in the middle is Hamilton, who was on the racing line. So Leclerc was still to the right of the racing line and Bottas was to the left of it.

 

I mean, in my eyes, you just impeccably demonstrated how this is a racing incident. The frames you put on top of each other with Hamilton indicating the racing line couldn't illustrate this anymore perfectly.

[A3]

Can you explain why Bottas has any other rights than Leclerc? Like you said earlier, Leclerc was still in the process of passing.
 
I don't understand where that thought comes from, that when they're still partially side by side, Leclerc somehow would have the right to move towards the racing line while Bottas doesn't.

We've seen it time and time again in hairpins and tight corners, the driver on the inside decides when to turn in, the car on the outside being overtaken cannot choose the racing line, it has to wait for the car that's passing him. See Vettel and Leclerc in Hungary. Otherwise we'd have tons of collisions.

In this example I believe Perez is at fault as he tries to take the racing line, ignoring the car that's overtaking him.
https://v.redd.it/63f32tb8ghe31

Edited by A3, 06 August 2019 - 07:28.

[A3]

I mean, in my eyes, you just impeccably demonstrated how this is a racing incident. The frames you put on top of each other with Hamilton indicating the racing line couldn't illustrate this anymore perfectly.

I can see that. I can live with it being a racing incident but I cannot understand the poll results, people blaming Leclerc more than Bottas.

But in my opinion, Bottas should have waited for Leclerc to pass him before moving right. How can Leclerc, who is still not back on the racing line, expect Bottas to move right? In other words, how should Leclerc know when to stop moving back towards the racing line? It was Bottas who could judge the distance, not Leclerc.
And Bottas claiming it was too late to react was BS, he did react as he moved right.

Edited by A3, 06 August 2019 - 07:29.

[SCUDmissile]

Leclerc was stupid. I guess that's what happens when you allow racing such as that seen in Austria.

Crowding others off track is now racing.

[A3]

Leclerc was stupid. I guess that's what happens when you allow racing such as that seen in Austria.

Crowding others off track is now racing.

How was Bottas crowded off the track? There's half a car width to the left of him.

[Lights]

We've seen it time and time again in hairpins and tight corners, the driver on the inside decides when to turn in, the car on the outside being overtaken cannot choose the racing line, it has to wait for the car that's passing him. See Vettel and Leclerc in Hungary. Otherwise we'd have tons of collisions.

In this example I believe Perez is at fault as he tries to take the racing line, ignoring the car that's overtaking him.
https://v.redd.it/63f32tb8ghe31

 

This is all correct but it's talking about corners. The rules of fighting in corners have always been different than on straights. For example, you're allowed to push someone off the track in a corner, while on a straight this is never allowed. I think this incident between Bottas and Leclerc is classified as a fight on a straight, as they're not yet in the braking zone.

 

I can see that. I can live with it being a racing incident but I cannot understand the poll results, people blaming Leclerc more than Bottas.

 

But in my opinion, Bottas should have waited for Leclerc to pass him before moving right. How can Leclerc, who is still not back on the racing line, expect Bottas to move right? In other words, how should Leclerc know when to stop moving back towards the racing line? It was Bottas who could judge the distance, not Leclerc.

And Bottas claiming it was too late to react was BS, he did react as he moved right.

 

Yeah and that's the crux of the incident. When cars move towards each other at those speeds, that's difficult to anticipate even for an F1 driver. Same reason we see wheelbanging now and then. Bottas was moving right because when he started moving right there was space for that, but that very quickly disappeared because at the same time Leclerc was moving left. Bottas clearly didn't expect Leclerc to move left that much, and then while he was moving right himself Bottas couldn't react on that anymore.

 

So, yes, Bottas should have waited for Leclerc to pass him before moving right, in the same sense as that Leclerc should have waited before passing him before moving left. Either of them moving like they did would have been fine, but both wouldn't have been. Racing incident.

 

The reason the poll results are what they are is because:

1) A lot of people only judged it from the onboard. When I did, I also thought it was on Leclerc because it gives the impression that Bottas didn't move at all while Leclerc moved twice as much as he actually did

2) Some people don't understand that Leclerc was moving towards the racing line because of how T4 works. Instead they just think Leclerc moved aggressively to intimidate or whatever

3) Some people have an alternative reality in which Leclerc pushed Bottas off the track

 

I really wouldn't put too much value on the poll results.

[A3]

This is all correct but it's talking about corners. The rules of fighting in corners have always been different than on straights. For example, you're allowed to push someone off the track in a corner, while on a straight this is never allowed. I think this incident between Bottas and Leclerc is classified as a fight on a straight, as they're not yet in the braking zone.
 
 
Yeah and that's the crux of the incident. When cars move towards each other at those speeds, that's difficult to anticipate even for an F1 driver. Same reason we see wheelbanging now and then. Bottas was moving right because when he started moving right there was space for that, but that very quickly disappeared because at the same time Leclerc was moving left. Bottas clearly didn't expect Leclerc to move left that much, and then while he was moving right himself Bottas couldn't react on that anymore.
 
So, yes, Bottas should have waited for Leclerc to pass him before moving right, in the same sense as that Leclerc should have waited before passing him before moving left. Either of them moving like they did would have been fine, but both wouldn't have been. Racing incident.
 
The reason the poll results are what they are is because:
1) A lot of people only judged it from the onboard. When I did, I also thought it was on Leclerc because it gives the impression that Bottas didn't move at all while Leclerc moved twice as much as he actually did
2) Some people don't understand that Leclerc was moving towards the racing line because of how T4 works. Instead they just think Leclerc moved aggressively to intimidate or whatever
3) Some people have an alternative reality in which Leclerc pushed Bottas off the track
 
I really wouldn't put too much value on the poll results.

I think we can shake hands in agreement.

Edited by A3, 06 August 2019 - 08:13.