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Honda or Renault. Which engine has been better this season?


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128 replies to this topic

Poll: Honda/Renault (203 member(s) have cast votes)

The more impressive engine has been..

  1. Honda (158 votes [77.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.83%

  2. Renault (45 votes [22.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.17%

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#101 shure

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 19:57

They also pay a severance/reputation fee that is rumoured to be 20m/year up until 2022 or so.

yes I have to say I’ve always found that one a little strange. It’s not as if they couldn’t demonstrate that Honda had severely underperformed so I’m very surprised McLaren had to pay anything

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#102 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 01:03

Nothing to do with the chassis its bolted into them?


It’s an engine formula. More power allows the team to add more downforce.

#103 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 01:15

Evidence is hard to find as we will never get raw HP numbers.

But the jump of both Mclaren and Renault in the speed traps likely is not coincedence. RB admitted they designed an aero efficient chassis initially because they expected a bit less HP from Honda. But even with that aero efficient chassis, they were a bit behind the Mclaren en Renault in most speed traps.

Based on qualifying speed traps, it looks to me like Renault has found some really strong peak HP. For the races it's much harder to really understand as there are too many variables for us casual viewers to digest.


Speed traps mean absolutely nothing. They are first and foremost a function of rear wing levels. Merc is usually very low on the speed trap, yet they and RBR destroy the mighty Reno and Woking around a lap.

#104 Requiem84

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 06:56

Speed traps mean absolutely nothing. They are first and foremost a function of rear wing levels. Merc is usually very low on the speed trap, yet they and RBR destroy the mighty Reno and Woking around a lap.


You simplify it way too much.

1. Renault PU’s never were high in speed traps (not in the RB, not in the Renault)
2. Mclaren Honda was initially lacking 20 km/h in speed traps -> indication of lack of hp
3. You can compare the speed traps to previous years of the same team. Teams usually use similar df levels between seasons
4. Some tracks require minimum df (Baku). It allows a pretty good comparison.

As you can see, you look at it from a superficial level. Data always tells you something, you just need to be able to interpret it correctly.

By the way, based on speed trap data I claimed after Melbourne that the Honda PU actually was the stronger part of the RB package compared to the chassis. I was laughed at (‘sure, a RB chassis so bad’, but in hindsight I was fully right).

#105 Clatter

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 07:04

It’s an engine formula. More power allows the team to add more downforce.

Hows that working out for Williams then?

Edited by Clatter, 18 August 2019 - 12:34.


#106 Garndell

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 11:41

It’s an engine formula. More power allows the team to add more downforce.

 

F1 is about getting that power and applying it to the track, if the chassis sucks they could bolt on a Saturn 5 and it would still suck.  Williams & Racing Spot both have a Mercedes lump attached to a bad chassis/aero and it shows by how poor they are.  Haas has the Ferrari lump and they are nowhere with their chassis/aero not working the tyres etc.  Hell even Ferrari has the Ferrari lump and are getting beaten quite often by weaker engines, why?  Perhaps the chassis/aero is more important than you give it credit for.

 

tldr; F1 is a Chassis/Aero/Engine/Tyre Temp formula.



#107 Quickshifter

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 15:41

Mclaren and Renault chassis are definitely not more aero efficient than Redbull chassis. When you look at the overall picture of speed traps on different tracks in different downforce configurations, it is clear that the Renault powered cars are always at the upper end of the spectrum. Speeds traps are not the be all and end all indicators of brute power but when there is a consistent pattern over 12 races they do count. In terms of efficiency and power Renault definitely has the edge, the reliability is debatable.


Edited by Quickshifter, 18 August 2019 - 16:08.


#108 Requiem84

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 15:53

What do you mean with efficiency?

#109 Quickshifter

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 16:04

What do you mean with efficiency?

 

Power unit overall efficiency [ ICE+ERS]. An efficient PU would allow you to carry relatively less fuel to complete race distance or on the flip side allow you to run more aggressively with the same fuel load.


Edited by Quickshifter, 18 August 2019 - 16:06.


#110 Requiem84

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 17:21

Power unit overall efficiency [ ICE+ERS]. An efficient PU would allow you to carry relatively less fuel to complete race distance or on the flip side allow you to run more aggressively with the same fuel load.


And how do you assess that Renault is more efficient than Honda?

I’d find that hard to derermine. Raw Q power: sure, Renault ahead. Efficiency in race, how to compare?

Another example: Ferrari PU is said to be a bit above Merc in peak power, but there are reports it needs a bit more fuel in the race.

I haven’t seen such comparisons between Honda and Renault..

#111 Thatfastguy

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 17:26

the reliability is debatable.

 

What..?



#112 BJHF1

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 18:59

What..?

Somehow reliability is “debatable” despite Honda making Renault look like a ticking time bomb when you look at facts (DNF’s). But when it comes to power and efficiency, Renault “definitely” has the edge, even though there is no real valid way to prove it. Anyhow, if this is the case as poster claims, Renault and Mclaren must once again be making some real **** chassis (ouch).

Also, I don’t know why there is so much focus on comparing Renault powered cars to RBR only. I think if you look at speed trap data, Toro Rosso has been quite strong with the Honda PU compared to Red Bull, and are much more evenly matched lap time wise and in the speed traps with the Mclaren and Renault throughout the season (or even more recent races).

Edited by BJHF1, 18 August 2019 - 19:33.


#113 ExEd

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 21:37

I'd vote Verstappen, but he wasn't in the pole.

 

I lol'd ,but its true.

Should have been in the poll.

 

The guy must have a broken back with all that carrying around he has to go through  :rotfl:



#114 TF110

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 00:03

TR has a podium. No other non-works team does. Heck, besides that same race with Stroll's result, no other team besides Toro Rosso even scored a 4th place. The fact Red Bull Honda has 2 wins and Ferrari has 0 should we even be asking if Renault is the better engine and start putting Honda up there with Merc and Ferrari? If were going by results it just might. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out, two big-time power tracks are coming and we'll find out the Honda power.



#115 Ackhernar

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 01:39

I think the fact that before Austria, RBR and Honda both publicly admitted that Renault look slightly ahead in qualifying says it all. But they also state they know they are ahead in race trim, Honda can run the engine in a higher base mode and push it further during the race than Renault can. Let's also mention Honda have introduced two upgrades so far, to Renault's one and yet Honda have utilised less components than Renault... There have been no on-track failures for Honda, at all, and this year they could actually lay claim to being one of the most reliable.

Personally, I'd rather the reliable engine, that sacrifices a small amount of power in qualifying (if that is even the case anymore, Honda have turned it up significantly recently), is more powerful during the race, is obviously efficient (they run hard all race, even turning the modes up towards the end), has a sharp development curve, probably the best on the field, have an upcoming significant upgrade, and potentially a final one before the year is out and an invested manufacturer all to myself.

Genuinely cannot really see why you'd choose Renault at the moment. They would add too many question marks.
 


Edited by Ackhernar, 19 August 2019 - 01:39.


#116 SJRace

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 01:51

I lol'd ,but its true.
Should have been in the poll.

The guy must have a broken back with all that carrying around he has to go through :rotfl:


The same Verstappen that pointed at the H logo on his race suit, attributing that win to Honda. If Ricciardo was there I reckon the points tally wouldn’t be so lopsided.

#117 Dutchrudder

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Posted Yesterday, 08:11

Has it ever been confirmed that Ilmore is helping Honda? I’ve heard this said several times, but I’ve never seen official confirmation, despite numerous searches - can you share the link where you saw it? I’d like to read it. Thanks!!

Ive heard it said so many times that i have read it as fact. Seeing your question posted made me realise this. A quick google found this article which seems to have been copied by various news sites;

https://www.autospor...mclaren-dilemma

However i was unable to find any real confirmation in the short time available.

Im not sure if i've made this up but im sure someone was talking about their partnership on SkyF1 not too long ago re the recent gains made, possibly Kravitz but again I may have dreamt this?

#118 Requiem84

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Posted Yesterday, 08:21

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...



#119 FullOppositeLock

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Posted Yesterday, 08:27

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

 

This might be of interest (in Dutch): https://www.gptoday....a-motor-ontleed



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#120 Talisman

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Posted Yesterday, 21:01

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

 

Both convergence and an increase in budget for both companies I believe, Honda more than Renault.

 

Also its worth remembering that Honda established a team from scratch in 2014, it took them quite a while (which is normal) to optimise the structure, get rid of the dead weights and integrate it with the rest of the company so the relevant expertise from the other parts could be used.  The other teams have been designing and manufacturing engines continually for a minimum of two decades so have not had to go through this step.

 

Inevitably the longer we have the formula the more background expertise there is in the supply chain to provide better components for the PU so even the least competitive manufacturers will get a trickle down boost in performance indirectly from Mercedes and Ferrari via this route.


Edited by Talisman, Yesterday, 21:02.


#121 Talisman

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Posted Yesterday, 21:04

Power unit overall efficiency [ ICE+ERS]. An efficient PU would allow you to carry relatively less fuel to complete race distance or on the flip side allow you to run more aggressively with the same fuel load.

 

How do you know the relative fuel loads of the Honda powered cars vs the Renault powered ones?  And how would your 'theory' account for Renault and McLaren running considerably closer to RBR in quali than the race?

 

Personally I think the McLaren in particular is much better than the rubbish chassis flattered by a wonderful engine you claim it to be.


Edited by Talisman, Yesterday, 21:05.


#122 Talisman

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Posted Yesterday, 21:13

yes I have to say I’ve always found that one a little strange. It’s not as if they couldn’t demonstrate that Honda had severely underperformed so I’m very surprised McLaren had to pay anything

 

Firstly I don't believe there was a performance clause in the contract, or if there was Honda didn't trigger it in 2017.

 

Secondly Honda was unwilling to drop the contract and if they had dug their heels in even by a few weeks then switching to Renault for 2018 would have been impossible for McLaren (the contract severence and new deal with Renault were signed extremely late in the day as it was).  The annual compensation McLaren pays Honda was the price of getting them to comply with Woking's wishes and enabling the switch.  Apparently they made a small payment to STR too and RBR cutting Sainz loose to Renault was intended to get the French to comply with the switch as well.



#123 shure

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Posted Yesterday, 21:18

TR has a podium. No other non-works team does. Heck, besides that same race with Stroll's result, no other team besides Toro Rosso even scored a 4th place. The fact Red Bull Honda has 2 wins and Ferrari has 0 should we even be asking if Renault is the better engine and start putting Honda up there with Merc and Ferrari? If were going by results it just might. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out, two big-time power tracks are coming and we'll find out the Honda power.

Give the nature of their collaboration I would suggest Red Bull are a works team in all but name



#124 shure

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Posted Yesterday, 21:21

Firstly I don't believe there was a performance clause in the contract, or if there was Honda didn't trigger it in 2017.

 

Secondly Honda was unwilling to drop the contract and if they had dug their heels in even by a few weeks then switching to Renault for 2018 would have been impossible for McLaren (the contract severence and new deal with Renault were signed extremely late in the day as it was).  The annual compensation McLaren pays Honda was the price of getting them to comply with Woking's wishes and enabling the switch.  Apparently they made a small payment to STR too and RBR cutting Sainz loose to Renault was intended to get the French to comply with the switch as well.

Even if there wasn't, which again would surprise me as I should have thought ti would be fairly standard, the fact that Honda themselves admitted they weren't up to par after several years should surely have given some legal ammunition to McLaren to dissolve the partnership due to under-performance.  Not saying it's impossible but it raises question marks for me



#125 Talisman

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Posted Yesterday, 21:30

Even if there wasn't, which again would surprise me as I should have thought ti would be fairly standard, the fact that Honda themselves admitted they weren't up to par after several years should surely have given some legal ammunition to McLaren to dissolve the partnership due to under-performance.  Not saying it's impossible but it raises question marks for me

 

You've sort of answered the question yourself.

 

McLaren wanted to have a non-Honda in the back of their car for 2018 but made this decision pretty late, delayed further by their initial preferred partner Mercedes giving them the run around before declining.  Honda didn't initially want to split and opposed it.  If McLaren had gone to court over their contract with Honda it would have been the worst case scenario for both companies.  The process would have dragged on long enough for McLaren to be forced to stick with Honda for 2018 as it would have been too late to either redesign the car (and for STR too) or have any other supplier be willing to switch supply at late notice.  Then McLaren and Honda would have been forced to work with each other through 2018 long after it was clear that neither wanted to carry on but were only doing so until the divorce could be settled legally.


Edited by Talisman, Yesterday, 21:31.


#126 Fatgadget

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Posted Yesterday, 21:50

Give the nature of their collaboration I would suggest Red Bull are a works team in all but name

No suggest there. Red Bull Honda are a works team.



#127 pup

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Posted Yesterday, 23:21

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

Both teams enlisted help from Ilmor.  Renault after their miserable start, and Honda after Mclaren fired them.  There were also rumors that Honda ultimately accepted Mercedes' help as well after the breakup.



#128 Ackhernar

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Posted Today, 07:23

Both teams enlisted help from Ilmor.  Renault after their miserable start, and Honda after Mclaren fired them.  There were also rumors that Honda ultimately accepted Mercedes' help as well after the breakup.

That's nonsense. This was a rumour from back at the end of 2016 as well. That Mercedes were giving Honda assistance, there was never an actual technical advisory team between the two at all. Ilmor is not currently involved with the current project either. He was contacted for an advisory role in 2017 (McLaren stipulation), but this was terminated anyway.

The Honda PU saw significant changes the moment they were split from McLaren, STR gave the Honda engineers more space for components, this was mentioned by several Honda staff, on the RA618H, note the enlarged exhaust manifold tubing and the fact they protrude further out than the RA617H and the intake piping is far less severe in angle change and less "squashed". This netted a power increase at the expense of space utilised and a small weight penalty.

There really was no performance clause in the contract, that much is certain, hence the substantial fees McLaren pay to Honda for terminating the contract. There was just simply no way the two companies would have an acceptable working contract after the nightmare they both went to, right down to the admin staff level.. It got pretty nasty towards the end. They are both doing better going their separate ways.



#129 pup

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Posted Today, 15:26

It's not nonsense.  It was widely reported.  Just Google it.  

 

Actually Honda had hired Ilmor before the actual split, but it was too late by then to save the relationship, even though they were already seeing improvement.