117 replies to this topic

[ChrisJson]

Please help me out. I wrote an answer in the thread on McLarens return to Indy on motorsport.com correcting the fake news that the Triple Crown consists of Monaco, Le Mans and Indy. Says who? was the reply I got! I've searched the forum but couldn't find the thread where we discussed it. Can somebody put me in the right direction?

 

Christer

[sabrejet]

Any fule kno that the Triple Crown is Le Mans, Sebring and Daytona.

[Collombin]

Try a TNF thread from about a year ago called History in the Making - a Quadruple Crown of Motorsport.

I'm on my phone at the moment, so am not going to attempt to link to it though.

Edited by E.B., 09 August 2019 - 21:49.

[ensign14]

Triple Crown when I was growing up was the World Championship, Indy, and Le Mans. 

[Ray Bell]

It ranks a mention in much older threads too...

Often with some derisive comments about it being meaningless, a 'beauty in the eye of the beholder' thing.

[Vitesse2]

https://forums.autos...of-motor-sport/

[DogEarred]

The Triple Crown is when Wales beat England, Scotland & Ireland at rugby union.

As they did earlier this year boyo...

[Lee Nicolle]

Has been a feature in dirt ovals in the US. Sprints, Midgets and the big sprints.

I have never heard it in relation to road racing.

[DCapps]

Christer,

 

"The Triple Crown" in motor sport is another one of those bogus things invented at some point that then take on a life of their own.

 

In other words, it really doesn't exist, except as something created by people to boost a particular driver for a particular purpose.

 

That few seem to actually agree on what events actually might constitute the "Triple Crown" should be a giveaway to even The Untrained Eye that there are many very good and valid reasons to doubt its existence.

 

Simply more motor sport bullsh*t.

[Tim Murray]

As Doug Nye, Vitesse2 and others pointed out in that earlier thread, when the term ‘Triple Crown’ was first applied to Graham Hill’s achievements in 1972, its three elements were definitely the Drivers’ World Championship, the Indianapolis 500 and the Le Mans 24 Hours. The nonsense about the Monaco GP came much later.

The British Automobile Racing Club awarded their Gold Medal to Graham in 1972. Their citation clearly stated that it was for being the ‘First Driver to win a World Championship, Le Mans & Indianapolis 500’:

https://www.barc.net...-compressed.pdf

[Radoye]

Indy, Pocono, Ontario.

[Jack-the-Lad]

In American sport a triple crown typically signifies the winning of three prominent titles or premier events during one year or season. Applying that to motorsport in the U.S. it might include winning the Indianapolis 500, the Daytona 500 and the USGP in the same season, virtually impossible today. Even achieving that across an entire career would be extraordinary in the modern era.

In general I agree with Don. The title can be manipulated to glorify just about anybody you like.

[E1pix]

Indy, Pocono, Ontario.

The "USAC Triple Crown" was a term commonly used in the '70s.

Whether that was a matter of USAC or ABC Sports terminology is suddenly unclear to me.
 

 

Regardless of origins, or sanctioning, I liked the term in identifying three amazing achievements (Edit: WDC, Indy, Le Mans), that had this kid's head spinning -- instead of doing homework and stuff. :-)

Edit: Clearly, some things never change.

Edited by E1pix, 10 August 2019 - 15:36.

[Collombin]

If David Tremayne really is to blame for the Monaco drivel, I may have to (very grudgingly) burn all my Tremayne books in a ritual akin to Beatles fans reacting to Lennon's "more popular than Jesus" remark.

[Roger Clark]

As I understand it, the term Triple Crown originated in English horse racing during the 19th Century. It consists of the 2,000 Guineas, the Derby and the St Leger. Other countries have their own versions. I don’t think there was ever an official competition, no prize beyond those of the individual races, it was just something that the press and public of the time picked up and adopted.

The term has been adopted in the same way by motor sport. There is nothing official so no definition can be right or wrong. There may be something that is generally accepted in time, if motor sport lasts long enough.

[Louism]

Graham Hill himself is telling you here :

 

https://youtu.be/zOgI-RSAo9o

[ChrisJson]

Thank you all very much for the information. I've uploaded the Graham Hill interview in a reply.

Let's see if it gets a reaction!

 

Christer

[Vitesse2]

As Roger says, it seems to have its origin - like so many motor racing terms - in horse racing. Earliest reference I can find to it being the Derby, Oaks and St Leger is from a preview of the St Leger in the Sunday Times of August 30th 1857 regarding the chances of a filly called Blink Bonny - whose unsuccessful run in the St Leger was something of a scandal at the time.

 

The first horse to win the English Triple Crown was West Australian in 1853 - although Wikipedia calls this award retrospective.

[Michael Ferner]

There is no Triple Crown... only the Four Crown Nationals... Sprints, Midgets, Super Modifieds and Championship dirt cars... Jack Hewitt won them all in one day!

[ensign14]

That few seem to actually agree on what events actually might constitute the "Triple Crown" should be a giveaway to even The Untrained Eye that there are many very good and valid reasons to doubt its existence.

 

I think it's more that the media tried to make it easier to achieve because it was so unlikely to be repeated.  Given the F1 monoculture for most drivers.

Even though in the last couple of decades Mario, Jacques, and Fernando have all come pretty close.

[Stephen W]

Elsewhere I recently saw someone refer to (a) taking pole position, (b) setting fastest lap in the race, and © winning the race, as being a Triple Crown. I have also seen people refer to Triple wins when the wins were not 'on the bounce'.

 

For me there is but one Triple Crown winner in motorsport - Graham Hill.

[Louism]

In 1995 Mario Andretti missed the challenge of the Triple Crown finishing second, by only one lap, of Le Mans 24 Hours.
Andretti was World Champion in 1978...but never won Monaco GP

Even closer for Jacques Villeneuve in 2008, second at Le Mans in the same lap !...and never won at Monaco either

Autosport June 22nd 1995






Archives René Bozec

Edited by Louism, 10 August 2019 - 09:57.

[Vitesse2]

Louism's scans date to just a month after the article by David Tremayne which was the first I found that mentioned Monaco!

Elsewhere I recently saw someone refer to (a) taking pole position, (b) setting fastest lap in the race, and © winning the race, as being a Triple Crown.

That's more or less what is known as a Grand Chelem (French for Grand Slam), although that also includes leading every lap from flag (or lights) to flag. Despite the non-durabilty of modern F1 tyres, Lewis Hamilton has actually achieved that five times - the same as Schumacher and Ascari and only three fewer than Clark.

 

https://f1.fandom.co...ki/Grand_Chelem

 

No idea where that originated, but presumably in the mind of some anorak-wearing statistician ...

[ensign14]

Hamilton at Italy 2015 achieved a Mega Chelem.  Topped every practice session as well.

 

Hamilton would have probably been on for beating Clark's record had it not been for the stupid fastest lap point.  He's lost at least one this season to someone changing tyres late on for a death or glory lap.

[Louism]

I think we are moving away from the Triple Crown...

[Sterzo]

I think we are moving away from the Triple Crown...

On the forum, a Triple Crown is earned by taking three steps away from the thread's topic. But then, as DSJ famously wrote, digressing is always more interesting than sticking to the point.

[john winfield]

In 1995 Mario Andretti missed the challenge of the Triple Crown finishing second, by only one lap, of Le Mans 24 Hours.
Andretti was World Champion in 1978...but never won Monaco GP
 

 

 

I was lucky enough to be at that 1995 Le Mans, and there were so many interesting permutations amongst the potential winners that, as the race progressed, Mario's potential 'Triple Crown' certainly didn't dominate proceedings. Could the WR stay in front? (Of course not). Why were the Porsches so slow? Were McLaren really going to win first time out? Lehto's night-driving in the wet deserved a win. Could Bell father and son manage something unique? And the Courages...would Bob Wollek finally win at La Sarthe?

 

The French fans were happy to see a local winner - Yannick Dalmas - but Mario scuppered his, and Bob's chances, by hitting the barrier in the Porsche curves. I think most of us felt more sorry for Bob than for Mario, triple crown or not.

Edited by john winfield, 10 August 2019 - 15:45.

[PayasYouRace]

Please help me out. I wrote an answer in the thread on McLarens return to Indy on motorsport.com correcting the fake news that the Triple Crown consists of Monaco, Le Mans and Indy. Says who? was the reply I got! I've searched the forum but couldn't find the thread where we discussed it. Can somebody put me in the right direction?
 
Christer

It’s not fake news at all. It’s not fake because either of the commonly accepted definitions is perfectly valid. It’s an unofficial title and as such isn’t defined anywhere, and Graham Hill is the only one to have done either. It’s not news because it’s a very old definition too.

Though as evidenced by this thread already, few topics will get old men as riled up as this when it comes to the motor racing world.

[john winfield]

Though as evidenced by this thread already, few topics will get old men as riled up as this when it comes to the motor racing world.

 

Careful sonny.....

 

.

[sabrejet]

I was lucky enough to be at that 1995 Le Mans, and there were so many interesting permutations amongst the potential winners that, as the race progressed, Mario's potential 'Triple Crown' certainly didn't dominate proceedings. Could the WR stay in front? (Of course not). Why were the Porsches so slow? Were McLaren really going to win first time out? Lehto's night-driving in the wet deserved a win. Could Bell father and son manage something unique? And the Courages...would Bob Wollek finally win at La Sarthe?

 

The French fans were happy to see a local winner - Yannick Dalmas - but Mario scuppered his, and Bob's chances, by hitting the barrier in the Porsche curves. I think most of felt more sorry for Bob than for Mario, triple crown or not.

 

Had to 'like' that post since Brilliant Bob doesn't get enough mention. 

[Terry Walker]

Back in the day before Graham Hill was Bob Turner, I used to think that the three most important races on the calender were Monaco, Indy and Le Mans. I didn't think of it as the triple crown though. Just three fantastically different races; to master all three was proof of prodigious talent and no doubt a good dollop of luck.

Edited by Terry Walker, 10 August 2019 - 14:46.

[DCapps]

First, it is clear that the term "Triple Crown" was borrowed from horse racing as a journalistic bon mot that whatever its original intent -- which most here seem to recall being applied when they first heard of it to the Graham Hill trifecta of Monte Carlo GP, the Indianapolis 500 mile race, and Le Mans GP of Endurance -- was subsequently applied to other sets of events, such as the USAC 500 mile events -- Indianapolis, Pocono, and Ontario -- or the NHRA major events -- Winternationals, Springnationals, and Summernationals -- and so forth and so on across the span of motor sport.

 

Second, if someone bothers to do the research, the term will probably surface being used in motor sport long prior to 1972 as often seems to be the case in such matters (...such as, perhaps, Barnato winning three consecutive GP of Endurance? Easy to imagine such a use in that instance...).

 

Third, basically, it can be whatever you want it to be, given that what is "commonly accepted" seems to vary from motor sport interest to motor sport interest. That there are differences of opinion is of little consequence given that it really does not matter. At best, it serves as a handy hook to hang a story upon.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah it's a PR thing. I mean, Alonso had no interest outside F1 until he could suddenly offset his lack of F1 success with this new found glory. 

 

But that said, I think there is an impressiveness is being able to win the 500(one of THE big oval races), Le Mans(arguably THE big enduro, vs Nurburgring 24 and etc), and Monaco is a good one if you had to pick a single sprint road race rather than a league. Mainly because it's a street circuit. But part of what makes Indycar so fun is they do ovals roads and streets in the same year so...

 

Maybe more so now due to how specialist everything is. On the other hand race cars and racing have kind of narrowed in their formats, Le Mans cars are just single seaters with more bodywork, you don't really 'manage' races in the same way, etc. 

 

A modern true Triple Crown, in more of a best of the best sense, would be any topline pavement racing (NASCAR, Indycar, F1) wins of note, and a WRC/Baja/etc, and a motorcycle result. That'd be diversity. Hell an F1 driver having success in NASCAR would be more newsworthy and a greater accomplishment than winning in an Indycar or sportscar prototype or other 'family tree' form of racing. Nelson Piquet Jr for all his faults has wins in major NASCAR touring series, European single seaters, Formula E, some sportscar racing possibly, whatever road-course 'stock cars' he's racing in Brazil currently, etc, etc, et al. 

 

What was weird to me with all this ALONSO ATTEMPTS TRIPLE CROWN EXCLUSIVE FILM AT 11 hot air, no one ever ever ever talked about Montoya. Indy in 2000, Monaco in 2003(?), why none of the prototype entries took a gamble on him in the time since was surprising. He has a much much much better chance of cherrypicking a Le Mans win than Alonso does at Indy. 

[E1pix]

First, it is clear that the term "Triple Crown" was borrowed from horse racing as a journalistic bon mot that whatever its original intent -- which most here seem to recall being applied when they first heard of it to the Graham Hill trifecta of Monte Carlo GP, the Indianapolis 500 mile race, and Le Mans GP of Endurance -- was subsequently applied to other sets of events, such as the USAC 500 mile events -- Indianapolis, Pocono, and Ontario -- or the NHRA major events -- Winternationals, Springnationals, and Summernationals -- and so forth and so on across the span of motor sport.

 

Second, if someone bothers to do the research, the term will probably surface being used in motor sport long prior to 1972 as often seems to be the case in such matters (...such as, perhaps, Barnato winning three consecutive GP of Endurance? Easy to imagine such a use in that instance...).

 

Third, basically, it can be whatever you want it to be, given that what is "commonly accepted" seems to vary from motor sport interest to motor sport interest. That there are differences of opinion is of little consequence given that it really does not matter. At best, it serves as a handy hook to hang a story upon.

It seems you're arguing against a term that was invented by a journalist, in all likelihood — perhaps the ultimate compliment to any writer.

 

Regardless, use of such terms can take root, alongside such things as "Supertex," "The King," and "The Big Go."

 

Perhaps the term might carry more water over here if the first recipient were someone like Mario.

[john winfield]

First, it is clear that the term "Triple Crown" was borrowed from horse racing as a journalistic bon mot that whatever its original intent -- which most here seem to recall being applied when they first heard of it to the Graham Hill trifecta of Monte Carlo GP, the Indianapolis 500 mile race, and Le Mans GP of Endurance

 

 

Not sure about this Don as, like Vitesse2, Doug Nye, Tim Murray and others, to me the Graham Hill 'Triple Crown' meant Indy 500, Le Mans and F1 World Championship, NOT the Monaco GP.  Not that it matters of course but Tim did explain above how some of us first understood the term.

[Jack-the-Lad]

The most prominent Triple Crowns in American sport are for the three year old thoroughbred that wins the Kentucky Derby, The Preakness and The Belmont Stakes, and in Major League Baseball for a batter who leads the league in batting average, home runs and runs batted in, in a season. There's an official trophy for the horse, but not for the batter, as far as I know.

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 10 August 2019 - 16:00.

[john winfield]

The most prominent Triple Crowns in American sport are for the three year old thoroughbred that wins the Kentucky Derby, The Preakness and The Belmont Stakes, and in Major League Baseball for a batter who leads the league in batting average, home runs and runs batted in, in a season. There's an official trophy for the horse, but not for the batter, as far as I know.

 

Has any batter or horse achieved both?

 

Say it ain't so Joe........

[Jack-the-Lad]

Has any batter or horse achieved both?
 
Say it ain't so Joe........

Some have tried, but the horse couldn't hit the slider and the batter wouldn't let a jockey mount him......

[Tim Murray]

The famous racehorse Beetlebaum did manage to win the Indianapolis 500:

https://youtu.be/T1fSnzmCtGQ

[Jim Thurman]

The "USAC Triple Crown" was a term commonly used in the '70s.

Whether that was a matter of USAC or ABC Sports terminology is suddenly unclear to me.

 

Yes, the USAC Championship Triple Crown, as mentioned: Indianpolis, Pocono, Ontario. USAC certainly got on board with it, but I don't know the exact origins of the term.

 

There is no Triple Crown... only the Four Crown Nationals... Sprints, Midgets, Super Modifieds and Championship dirt cars... Jack Hewitt won them all in one day!

 

Correct (I did wonder what the poster referring to a sprint, midget and "big sprint" Triple Crown meant). Though Hewitt won in modifieds (IMCA-type modifieds). Hewitt's win came in the first year the modifieds were part of the Four Crown Nationals. The class was dropped after 2007 in favor of different sprint car sanctioning bodies since.

[E1pix]

You guys are speaking of the race at Eldora, right?

We went to that in 2017, our first time at Eldora after 50 years' pondering. What a track, what an event!

Road course owners could learn a lot from that place.

[AJCee]

So it would seem that even in the world of (horse) racing the definition isn’t hard and fast and, in the UK, referred to winning three classics in a year. In the modern era that would now be a Guineas (presuming that the 1000 Guineas would count for a filly), The Derby (or The Oaks as appropriate) and the St Leger.
But these days few would consider sending a three year old on the third leg at Doncaster.

Anyway, back to cars....

Edited by AJCee, 11 August 2019 - 07:08.

[Geoff E]

In the modern era that would now be a Guineas (presuming that the 1000 Guineas would count for a filly), The Derby (or The Oaks as appropriate) and the St Leger.

 

Just a note that two horses won 4 of the 5 Classics (both missing out on the Derby), Formosa in 1868 and Sceptre in1902.

[Doug Nye]

Just as an update to dispel any confusion over which achievements Graham Hill's 'triple crown' really comprised - his daughter Brigitte has just directed me to the BARC Gold Medal record of Graham's Triple Crown award…recognising his Triple Crown achievement.

 

The engraved citation with it reads 'TRIPLE CROWN - WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIANAPOLIS 500 - LE MANS 24-HOUR RACE'.

 

So his 'triple crown' at least comprised those three achievements and those three alone.  So ignore any claims re victory in the Monaco GP.  World title, Le Mans and Monaco would certainly represent A triple crown, but NOT the one achieved by, and celebrated by, Graham.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 June 2022 - 12:50.

[Tim Murray]

Excellent! Now we have conclusive proof. Thanks Doug.

[rl1856]

Jeopardy (US Quiz show for those not in the US) had a category last night for F1 GP trivia.   One of the questions was "What is the Triple Crown"...Answer:  Victories at Monaco, LeMans and the Indy 500.   I agree with Hill, DCN and others in thinking that the TC is the WDC, LeMans and Indy 500.  Coincidentally, the only driver to achieve the TC  under both definitions is Graham Hill.      I said as much to my wife.   

 

Larger issue is that F1/GP Racing is starting to become part of US pop culture.   We now see highlight reports and links from major media, while Drive to Win ratings continue to increase.  This was not the case just a few years ago.      More attention is a good thing, and I hope that it eventually leads to more US drivers taking the leap..... and having a chance at winning the TC !  

[Lemnpiper]

Here in the USA   another reason the term Triple Crown was applied to the USAC races at Pocono ,Indy, Ontario  in the early 1970;s was the fact that US horseracing  had  gone since 1948 with Citation   til 1973 with Secretariat without have a horse win the triple crown in horseracing. 

 

   The press coverage  for Secretariat's wins was massive so  all in all it wasnt such a bad idea for USAC to co opt the idea for it's 3 big races.

 

   Ironically in 1919 Sir Barton was the 1st to win horseracing's triple crown  , but the term wasnt applied to him then  til they had a a slew of triple crown winners in the 1930's & 1940's and they belately realized Sir Barton had been the 1st to accomplish it.

 

 

   One question : When Ontario closed  was Michigan accepted as a suitable replacement in the open wheel  triple crown?

 

 

    Paul

Edited by Lemnpiper, 28 June 2022 - 23:30.

[Bob Riebe]

   One question : When Ontario closed  was Michigan accepted as a suitable replacement in the open wheel  triple crown?

 

    Paul

NO.
 

Edited by Bob Riebe, 29 June 2022 - 02:28.

[john aston]

Excellent! Now we have conclusive proof. Thanks Doug.

Or BARC was wrong ? Logically , it is Monaco , as a stand alone race, like the other  two .  Until recently, when Alonso was targetting the Crown , I had never heard even one suggestion that it was WDC. 

[Tim Murray]

How can the BARC be wrong when they came up with the idea in the first place (probably inspired by DCN)? As discussed above and in the earlier thread, it was always WDC, never Monaco, until sometime in the late ‘90s.