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The validity of junior driver programs (Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull)


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#51 statman

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 17:12

https://www.business...drivers-academy

 

not sure where this comes from, but apparently these are all the RB drivers for the last 20 years and the investments RB has made. 190 million since the beginning. All the figures at the bottom of the page.



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#52 Clrnc

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 17:19

Actually a huge number of RB drivers has been successful but wasn't given too much of a time in f1. They are still very successful in other series anyway. 

 

I think Merc driver program is pretty impressive, all high quality graduates (Wehlein aside). Mclaren one is pretty decent too. 



#53 Nathan

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:39

 

Mediocre drivers in seats where top drivers are available.

 

 

When do we usually find out if they are great or mediocre?



#54 Reddington

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:06

When do we usually find out if they are great or mediocre?


Before F1.
Or did you really think Gasly was on a path similar to Hamilton, Max, Vettel? No, right?

#55 warp

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:37

...although of course there are exceptions like Hamilton back then.... They didnt had a Vettel or Leclerc yet.

 

Agreed. And there's nothing to be ashamed off... Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Max are arguably the very best on the grid and all of them came up the ranks very quickly and rightly so. But you can't expect all drivers to come to this level.

 

Certainly, if Mercedes is having second thoughts between Ocon and Bottas is because they have all the data and they don't really expect Ocon to be better than Valtteri.

 

 


Ferrari somewhat validated their program (which had been useless for years, essentially, with people like Massa and Raikkonen hogging seats beyond their expiration date) by putting in Leclerc as a sophomore driver.  One could speculate they would have placed Bianchi into the factory team, as well - if things were less unfortunate.  Before Leclerc, though... crickets chirped for their Juniors.

 

They had Sergio Perez in the Ferrari Academy while he was in Sauber and his name was rumored for going to a Ferrari seat when the seat at McLaren came through. The rest is history.

 

 

I think there's nothing to shout about Red Bull's programme. Who is the only person actually succeeded? Max?

 

I can't think of anyone else. 

 

 

LOL, the level of respect Vettel gets sometimes is astonishing. :rotfl:



#56 SenorSjon

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:02

To continue here from https://forums.autos...12#entry8855288

 

@Maxioos:

Nyck de Vries was a 'proper' McLaren junior, being bred from his karting days up until 2 seasons GP/F2. Last year was a shoot-out between him and Norris, Norris clearly won. De Vries got the Hamilton treatment, but couldn't make it work. Verstappen became a so called Jr. just months before his first FP outing in the Toro Rosso. 

 

In my book a junior is one  who at least was supported through the single-seat ladder. Verstappen was a free agent and if Merc had a spare seat straight in F1, it could have been Verstappen next to Hamilton from 2017 onwards. That would have been fireworks. You see the same happen in the Indy ladder. Veekay has no allegiances, while Askew is an Andretti junior. A junior status can fast track you in a top team (e.g. Gasly), but it can also leave you without a seat (Wehrlein, Ocon) because other teams won't touch you with a pole. Iirc, Ocon used to be a Renault junior, but they let him get away..



#57 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:26

Actually a huge number of RB drivers has been successful but wasn't given too much of a time in f1. They are still very successful in other series anyway. 

 

I think Merc driver program is pretty impressive, all high quality graduates (Wehlein aside). Mclaren one is pretty decent too. 

 

Why would you say "Wehrlein aside"? He seemed perfectly capable in F1 to me and has done very well for himself in other categories.



#58 Murl

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:30

I think there's nothing to shout about Red Bull's programme. Who is the only person actually succeeded? Max?

 

I can't think of anyone else. 

 

I think Max was a product of Jos' program.
 



#59 FirstWatt

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:35

I think Max was a product of Jos' program.
 

 

Oh my. Even biology is now digitized then. Expected differently from Jos  :stoned:  :lol:



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#60 Clrnc

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 17:47

Why would you say "Wehrlein aside"? He seemed perfectly capable in F1 to me and has done very well for himself in other categories.

Not in the same quality as Ocon and Russell IMO. 



#61 Reddington

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 01:04

Not in the same quality as Ocon and Russell IMO.

Ocon is good, but not elite in my book. He couldn’t beat Perez, now could he? Still fully deserves a good seat though, I just don’t see the the hype justified in F1 yet. It could come, but looking at his actual results in F1, they’re, let’s say, ok...

#62 CoolBreeze

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 09:38

 

 

 

 

LOL, the level of respect Vettel gets sometimes is astonishing. :rotfl:

 

My apologies. Vettel made his debut with BMW Sauber. Hence, i thought he was a product of their programme. After further checking, i realized my mistake. 

 

That being said, besides Vettel, the only standout is Max. No one else. Ricci is fast becoming another Webber/journeyman in F1. 



#63 CoolBreeze

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 09:40

I know Vettel is not doing too hot right now but he’s been fairly successful, no?

 

 

Former Toro Rosso drivers actually make up more than a third of current grid and 3 out of 4 best paid drivers in current F1. If that does not prove their program delivered, I don't know what else would.

 

As per my previous post. I stand corrected. 



#64 Talisman

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 10:30

My apologies. Vettel made his debut with BMW Sauber. Hence, i thought he was a product of their programme. After further checking, i realized my mistake.

That being said, besides Vettel, the only standout is Max. No one else. Ricci is fast becoming another Webber/journeyman in F1.

That is Ricciardo’s fault/business and due to the failure of Renault to deliver in 2019. If Renault get their act together and fight for the top 3 he will be remembered as a top driver. The blame for his career choice last season cannot be placed on either the Red Bull project or RBR.

Edited by Talisman, 16 August 2019 - 10:48.


#65 Clrnc

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 12:11

Ric would have been a multiple world champion if he joined 2 years earlier. Racing talent wise he is easily better than Vettel IMO. 

 

Max is as competitive as him, but never blew him away. 



#66 Beri

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 12:14

Ric would have been a multiple world champion if he joined 2 years earlier. Racing talent wise he is easily better than Vettel IMO. 
 
Max is as competitive as him, but never blew him away.


Lets not have this discussion here.

#67 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 13:11

It's a shame that drivers are locked into firm academy relationships these days. On a proper open market Hulkenberg, Perez and Ocon would all be in the running for that Red Bull seat.

 

No they wouldn't IMO.  :confused:

 

Ocon is out of the question for obvious reasons.

Perez was under contract for 2019.

Hulkenberg was under contract for 2019, but may be considered by RBR for 2020 if Albon is not as impressive as expected.

 

Albon seems to be on par with Russell and Norris, who both seem to be aces and both ironically unavailable to Red Bull due to alternative junior driver programs, so seems a solid signing for RBR.  :up:

 

 

Ricci is fast becoming another Webber/journeyman in F1. 

 

:rolleyes:   That's an absurd statement.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 August 2019 - 13:13.


#68 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 13:15

The programmes themselves are valid. They've given us the likes of Hamilton, Vettel and Leclerc. The main problem is what happens after a driver has been ejected from the comforts of such an environment....he's seen as "damaged goods"....for example if Kvyat or Gasley are dropped, where next? Will anyone take a chance on either driver....both probably have the talent to do well in F1 but have been damaged by their RBR experiences.

 

Vandoorne is an example.  From next McLaren ace to F1 reject.