893 replies to this topic

[Jim Thurman]

A couple, well more than a couple of thoughts here. I was going to write up a nice explanatory post, but I've written most of it the day of the accident and it might fall into too long, didn't read. It probably still does, really.

 

First, I had no ire or anger. I wasn't sitting in a red-faced rage   typing away. I was merely trying to catch the deluge in a paper cup (reference, anyone?). By the time I'd finished one response, it seemed there were several more, often getting more carried away. I was simply trying to be a voice of reason to the pitchfork and torch brigade. Outrage culture needs to go the **** away. I've mentioned before that those who are already anti-oval seem poised to instantly react and post, perhaps before the accident is even over! I'd do the same for road courses, and it is inevitable that something tragic will happen again on a road course as well, but I do not wish to gloat.

 

Second, my reaction to JHSingo was as much, if not more, to the "popping in" as it was for the content. If it had been someone we weren't familiar with that did it, they'd be labelled a troll. My reaction was also cumulative, expressing disappointment at reacting rather than reading.

 

This --->    is an eyeroll. It is not vomiting (perhaps some of you have browsers that show otherwise, or simply didn't notice  )  If the  emoji is such that it is routinely misconstrued or interpreted as something more than it is, perhaps it should be disabled. If you didn't notice the difference, it again speaks to my comments about not paying attention.

 

I definitely do not "shrug off" these incidents, but I do have a proper perspective that doesn't come from being biased against ovals based on misperceptions and misinformation. Yes, the catch fencing at Pocono is problematic, as it is at most tracks (to me, all). But, for all those calling for instant raising of the SAFER barrier, these are unproven knee-jerk reactions. Often these type of changes things worse, particularly when untested. I still shudder at what might have happened if Robert Wickens had hit a truly strong fencing, such as at IMS. He might not have come out of the accident even as well as he is now. Think about that for a moment. The impact would have been far greater, and likely sent the car pinwheeling down the track afterwards, a la Kenny Brack or Davey Hamilton at Texas. How is that better? I also wonder how RHR would've fared under those circumstances.

 

Finally (yes,finally), there's the part about being labelled a gomer, which, if you've spent any time amongst them, is about the worst insult I can think of!    And, it truly doesn't apply. For that, I'd have to be calling Wickens, Karam, Chilton, Mike Conway, etc. "pansies", or worse. I do not feel that way about anyone wishing to not do, or do, something.

 

And, for all of you who find it boring or have moved on, I'm with you, but, then let's not repeat it, ok? That's how you know it's really been moved on from.

 

How did I feel about this post?, I dunno TLDR.

 

 

 

 

[red stick]

For my part, should there come a time when I again feel the urge to describe a Thurmanian anything, I'll take care to decide if the anything truly fits. It's mutual respect that more frequently than not sets this particular comment thread community apart.

[Henri Greuter]

 

Thanks, Tsarwash. Nice to know some people read them    Concur completely about your sentiments about disagreement. I don't think it applies to the pitchfork and torch brigade though.

 

I'll pop in with one quick thought here,

 

What if Indycar let the drivers vote on whether to return to Pocono, or not?  What if the vote was overwhelmingly to return? How would the reactionaries handle that?

 

And, before someone jumps in with it, if they voted to not go back, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would respect the decision. Somehow, I can't see the Twitter outrage squad dealing remotely as well with the other result.

 

red stick already posted something along the lines of it, but opinions aren't all one way or all the other, folks. There's a lot of in-between. For that matter, I posted about the difference between polarities and extremities back on race day, but apparently few noticed, particularly those that needed to notice it the most.

 

 

 

 

Interesting thought about letting the drivers decide on returning yes or no.

Will be interesting how that would be solved should driver refuse to drive and then see what the team owner would do.

 

Going deeper into that:

 

I know two cases of drivers who ran in the USAC days but refused to ran on one particular track on the trail at that time. Neither have I ever being referred to as sissies.

For the specialists in Champcar racing and most of all who are in the history:  Any hard feelings about Rodger Ward and Jimmy Bryan refusing to run at Langhorne?

I think there are Bryan fans who wished he had stuck to that decision and not taken over Ward's ride when he once again refused to race over there....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 August 2019 - 18:56.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Interesting thought about letting the drivers decide on returning yes or no.
Will be interesting how that would be solved should driver refuse to drive and then see what the team owner would do.

Going deeper into that:

I know two cases of drivers who ran in the USAC days but refused to ran on one particular track on the trail at that time. Neither have I ever being referred to as sissies.
For the specialists in Champcar racing and most of all who are in the history: Any hard feelings about Rodger Ward and Jimmy Bryan refusing to run at Langhorne?
I think there are Bryan fans who wished he had stuck to that decision and not taken over Ward's ride when he once again refused to race over there....

Langhorne was dangerous because of the holes and roots.

Pocono is dangerous because of drivers behavior on track.

[Jim Thurman]

Also, for you folks who were upset about Mario Andretti's comment(s) re: Pocono, it is probably for the best that no one has asked Bobby Unser.

[Collombin]

Henri - can you tell me more about Bryan refusing to run Langhorne? I thought he had simply stopped running the entire championship trail (Indy excepted) in 1958-60, nothing specifically about Langhorne - I actually sensed Jimmy was one of the few who loved the place!

[Henri Greuter]

Henri - can you tell me more about Bryan refusing to run Langhorne? I thought he had simply stopped running the entire championship trail (Indy excepted) in 1958-60, nothing specifically about Langhorne - I actually sensed Jimmy was one of the few who loved the place!

 

 

 

Oh, then my info is wrong I'm afraid. Now you mention this, It rings a bell with me that Jimmy was indeed quiiting everything but Indy and thus Langhorne as well.

I must look it up to see If I can find it, But I thing the chance if very, very big that you are entirely correct and that I am off.

Will have a look on it nonetheless but 99% sure that you are right.

 Thanks for pointing this out. 

[Henri Greuter]

Henri - can you tell me more about Bryan refusing to run Langhorne? I thought he had simply stopped running the entire championship trail (Indy excepted) in 1958-60, nothing specifically about Langhorne - I actually sensed Jimmy was one of the few who loved the place!

 

 

Oh, then my info is wrong I'm afraid. Now you mention this, It rings a bell with me that Jimmy was indeed quiiting everything but Indy and thus Langhorne as well.

I must look it up to see If I can find it, But I thing the chance if very, very big that you are entirely correct and that I am off.

Will have a look on it nonetheless but 99% sure that you are right.

 Thanks for pointing this out. 

 

 

Checked it an you're right. Jimmy had retired from racing for a while other than Indy.

No clues on negative feelings towards Langhorne found, in fact he had done quite well over there.

I stand corrected regarding Bryan.

 

The only occasion of a driver of the past who can be called a sissy by some out here because of refusing to drive on a certain location because of it being (in his opinion) a dangerous track is Rodger Ward.

I have no idea how such people rate Mike Conway when he retired from the ovals some years ago, let alone what they think about MS who simply stated never to race at Indy at the oval since he rated it to be too dangerous.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

It is never the tract that poise a danger. It is always your fellow competotors. All tracks on the schedule are just fine.

I am talking about today world.

And besides why is nobody complainig about Toronto and Laguna?

We lost a driver recently at both tracks. Jeff Krosnoff at Toronto and Gonzalo Rodriguez at Laguna Seca.

[Jim Thurman]

In 1970, USAC Championship drivers refused to return to Dover, or run a second date at Langhorne (paved by then). Drivers and owners had specifically told USAC they would not return to those tracks, yet USAC scheduled them anyway. They had agreed on a Langhorne race earlier in the season, solely to serve as a final race for the series there.

[red stick]

I'm prepared to retire the word "sissy."  I don't think Mario was necessarily calling anybody out in particular, but perhaps artlessly pointing out the hard truth that superspeedways require a different skillset and sense of commitment.  As for courage, I'd rather those that have decided that going 230 on ovals is not how they'd like to race admit it, rather than "suck it up" and, through lack of commitment, skill, or pure desire, perhaps put others at risk.  Like Jim, I have all the respect in the world for Mike Conway, Max Chilton, and others who have made their choice about where their comfort level lies.  That takes courage, too. 

Edited by red stick, 24 August 2019 - 20:43.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

I'm prepared to retire the word "sissy." I don't think Mario was necessarily calling anybody out in particular, but perhaps artlessly pointing out the hard truth that superspeedways require a different skillset and sense of commitment. As for courage, I'd rather those that have decided that going 230 on ovals is not how they'd like to race admit it, rather than "suck it up" and, through lack of commitment, skill, or pure desire, perhaps put others at risk. I have all the respect in the world for Mike Conway, Max Chilton, and others who have made their choice about where their comfort level lies. That takes courage, too.

Of corse it takes courage. But it begs a question why those two choose motorsport as their carrer?

[red stick]

Of corse it takes courage. But it begs a question why those two choose motorsport as their carrer?

 

A lot of drivers have no desire to race on ovals.  I don't think the motorsports careers of Hamilton, Schumacher, Button, or for that matter, Conway. who's clearly brilliant in sports cars, have suffered.

[Andrew Hope]

For whatever reason certain people don't distinguish between accidents caused by specific attributes of a circuit vs. accidents caused because **** happens. Wilson and Wickens were **** happens. Boko Karam could've struck anywhere.

Last weekend happened in my estimation because Pocono is trickier than the drivers were treating it. It leapt out and bit them. As it's always been and will always be in racing, circumstances outside of your control will occasionally snare you into them, just like the leader crashing and creating a blizzard of debris for you to drive through may cost you your life, others racing hard on lap 1 may very quickly become your business as their accident falls into your lap, and your lap then into the fence.

I haven't seen anything to give me issue with how Sato drove. As I've said before, this is a sport for big boys and girls only. If we're going to ditch any track, ditch a boring one. Lose Detroit and go to Mosport that weekend. If it's scary, don't drive.

What I took away was how strange it is to see a car come to rest upside down these days, and how lucky we are that this is strange to see. And it's good to know the safety crew has that kind of hustle, because even if we just ran Iowa 17 times next year, we all know they'd need it.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 24 August 2019 - 21:00.

[noriaki]

I haven't seen anything to give me issue with how Sato drove. As I've said before, this is a sport for big boys and girls only. If we're going to ditch any track, ditch a boring one. Lose Detroit and go to Mosport that weekend. If it's scary, don't drive.

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment of your post at all but this bit offends me. With the DW12 chassis Detroit has been *anything but* boring. To me, one of the modern highlights of the calendar.

[red stick]

Hope! And Ross on the same day. Did I miss the bat signal?

[Andrew Hope]

Also, as is too often the case on this forum the word "hero" is getting thrown around a lot for my taste. I don't consider a race car driver a hero, I consider him someone who enjoys an adrenaline rush and has made a conscious decision as an adult that rather than spend their finite time on this rock doing something safe and boring, they prefer to add risk, and therefore excitement, to their daily experience. You need bravery to do this, but bravery all by itself is not necessarily heroic. Mike Hailwood and David Purley were heroes - but only after they had bravely jumped out of their cars.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Also, as is too often the case on this forum the word "hero" is getting thrown around a lot for my taste. I don't consider a race car driver a hero, I consider him someone who enjoys an adrenaline rush and has made a conscious decision as an adult that rather than spend their finite time on this rock doing something safe and boring, they prefer to add risk, and therefore excitement, to their daily experience. You need bravery to do this, but bravery all by itself is not necessarily heroic. Mike Hailwood and David Purley were heroes - but only after they had bravely jumped out of their cars.

Are you saying they have narccistic disorder?

Because you described the symptoms perfectly

[ANF]

It is never the tract that poise a danger. It is always your fellow competotors. All tracks on the schedule are just fine.

I am talking about today world.

And besides why is nobody complainig about Toronto and Laguna?

We lost a driver recently at both tracks. Jeff Krosnoff at Toronto and Gonzalo Rodriguez at Laguna Seca.

As for Toronto, Krosnoff hit a tree. And a lamppost. Is that tree/fence/lamppost configuration the same today, 23 years later, or has it been changed because it didn't meet safety standards?

As for Laguna Seca, I'm not sure it's a good idea for Indycar to go back there. I might be wrong, but I'm not sure that some of the runoff areas will be particularly safe in a big accident with Indycar speeds + open wheels + open cockpits. By the way, the same could be said about the Kink and Kettle Bottoms at Road America. I guess it's a little better after they installed the SAFER barrier at the Kink earlier this year.

[B Squared]

Laguna reconfigured the track to get the required mileage to host their first MotoGP race a number of years ago but it likely would have been changed anyway after Mario had a huge turn 1 testing accident in the early to mid 80s that he probably shouldn't have walked away from.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Laguna reconfigured the track to get the required mileage to host their first MotoGP race a number of years ago but it likely would have been changed anyway after Mario had a huge turn 1 testing accident in the early to mid 80s that he probably shouldn't have walked away from.

Rodriguez died on the recofigured track the same as they will be racing on later in the season

[B Squared]

I know that, but thank you for pointing it out to others. Everything indicated his foot slipped off the brake pedal and that is what led to his accident. He and Mark Donohue are the only two Penske drivers that have ever died in one of his race cars.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Foot can slip of the brake pedal in the modern day too. So should they cancell Laguna together with Pocono?

[Collombin]

Wouldn't a HANS device have saved him?

Edited by E.B., 24 August 2019 - 22:19.

[ANF]

Nowadays the Corkscrew has a fence to stop cars from somersaulting over the barrier like Rodríguez did. Sheena Monk never got into the fence though.

[B Squared]

Wouldn't a HANS device have saved him?

Nothing is guaranteed, but his chances would have increased greatly.

[B Squared]

Foot can slip of the brake pedal in the modern day too. So should they cancell Laguna together with Pocono?

To your first point, obviously.

Regarding the second point, what irritates me most is that some here make this into a joke and comedy routine until something happens then let the hand-wringing and outcry begin.

[Jim Thurman]

Also, as is too often the case on this forum the word "hero" is getting thrown around a lot for my taste. I don't consider a race car driver a hero, I consider him someone who enjoys an adrenaline rush and has made a conscious decision as an adult that rather than spend their finite time on this rock doing something safe and boring, they prefer to add risk, and therefore excitement, to their daily experience. You need bravery to do this, but bravery all by itself is not necessarily heroic. Mike Hailwood and David Purley were heroes - but only after they had bravely jumped out of their cars.

 

Same here, I do not look at them as "heroes." They are people, just like everyone else. There are so many more than Hailwood and Purley, including quite a few from the U.S. oval racing scene and far more from the U.S. short track oval scene. It would be interesting to compile a full list of racers who either attempted to, or succeeded in, pulling fellow racers from burning vehicles. Tiny Lund, Bill Wimble and Ernie Gahan come to mind, though Lund was simply spectating and the other two (NASCAR modified racers) were passing nearby in a street vehicle. So many...

[FLB]

Same here, I do not look at them as "heroes." They are people, just like everyone else. There are so many more than Hailwood and Purley, including quite a few from the U.S. oval racing scene and far more from the U.S. short track oval scene. It would be interesting to compile a full list of racers who either attempted to, or succeeded in, pulling fellow racers from burning vehicles. Tiny Lund, Bill Wimble and Ernie Gahan come to mind, though Lund was simply spectating and the other two (NASCAR modified racers) were passing nearby in a street vehicle. So many...

Isn't there a story about journalist Mike Joy once doing the same for an SCCA/NASA racer? I vaguely remember a story told by Dave Despain?

Edited by FLB, 24 August 2019 - 23:33.

[potmotr]

This thread is still going? Amazing.

[Jim Thurman]

This thread is still going? Amazing.

 

There was (and is) a lot of ground to cover, and it takes time for things to calm down after near hysteria.

 

Plus, some of us were busy doing other things during the week.

[Lotus72b]

I try to put pictures on here, but couldn't. So enjoy the video from the weekend.

https://youtu.be/VT4XipsviD0

https://youtu.be/bDvBiqY9sY0

https://youtu.be/jKxiE5ocL_s

[red stick]

Nice.

[Tsarwash]

It is never the tract that poise a danger. It is always your fellow competotors. All tracks on the schedule are just fine.

I am talking about today world.

And besides why is nobody complainig about Toronto and Laguna?

We lost a driver recently at both tracks. Jeff Krosnoff at Toronto and Gonzalo Rodriguez at Laguna Seca.

If you are talking about today world, then why are you mentioning accidents that happened twenty and twenty three years ago ? Are those circuits the same today as they were when the fatal accidents happened ? And regarding your first sentence, race drivers quite often have serious accident that do not involve other competitors. 

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

If you are talking about today world, then why are you mentioning accidents that happened twenty and twenty three years ago ? Are those circuits the same today as they were when the fatal accidents happened ? And regarding your first sentence, race drivers quite often have serious accident that do not involve other competitors.

Yes both track are pretty much the same.

Same accident can occur in 2019 at both tracks

Infact Franchitti's carrer ending crash that happened in Houston could have happened on any street course and it happened recently

[Risil]

Also, for you folks who were upset about Mario Andretti's comment(s) re: Pocono, it is probably for the best that no one has asked Bobby Unser.

 

Just so we can end this thread on a positive note, while I was trolling through old CART races on Youtube I found a gem of crankiness from Bobby Unser in the closing stages of the 1994 Surfers Paradise GP (you know, the one where they had loads of rain delays and the race finished in darkness, before that was fashionable). Chip Ganassi, who is on for his first victory as a team owner, has just been complaining bitterly about the light levels to ABC's pit reporter, and is calling for the race to be stopped. Sam Posey is airily dismissive:

 

"Well, he's playing politics."

 

Bobby replies, slowly and condescendingly: "Only thing is, the officials aren't looking at the television. They're busy running the race, Sam."

[Dmitriy_Guller]

On the other hand, in 2015 Charlie Kimball got up into the Pocono fence all on his own:



(I don't know how much this had to do with the 2015 cars' tendency to get airborne going backwards.)

I suspect that SAFER walls have an unfortunate side effect of making it more likely to guide the car into the fence.  Probably the horizontal distance between the wall and the fence, as well as deformable nature of the wall allowing for temporary ramping, makes fence contact in single car accidents more likely.

[Tsarwash]

Yes both track are pretty much the same.

Same accident can occur in 2019 at both tracks

Infact Franchitti's carrer ending crash that happened in Houston could have happened on any street course and it happened recently

You keep on saying that the circuits are the same now as they were before when the fatal accidents happened. It has been pointed out to you that the circuits made subsequent safety improvements. 

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

You keep on saying that the circuits are the same now as they were before when the fatal accidents happened. It has been pointed out to you that the circuits made subsequent safety improvements.

Evidence. Where is your evidence?

What someone said on forum is not an evidence

[Risil]

The tree Krosnoff hit in 1996 is gone. They don't have trees lining street circuits anymore. The tyre barrier Rodriguez hit at the top of the Corkscrew is now three layers thick instead of one (plus they have the HANS device, which is admittedly not a track improvement). The layouts are substantially similar but what surrounds the tarmac has changed. Laguna Seca is still quite dangerous but it's much harder to go head-on into a concrete wall these days.

[Tsarwash]

The tree Krosnoff hit in 1996 is gone. They don't have trees lining street circuits anymore. The tyre barrier Rodriguez hit at the top of the Corkscrew is now three layers thick instead of one (plus they have the HANS device, which is admittedly not a track improvement). The layouts are substantially similar but what surrounds the tarmac has changed. Laguna Seca is still quite dangerous but it's much harder to go head-on into a concrete wall these days.

Thank you. Also catch fencing has been installed at The Corkscrew at Laguna Seca which makes it a lot more difficult to leave the circuit and hit the trees. My point is that motorsport safety has come a long way in the last three decades, and it will continue to get safer. I think this is a good thing. 

[ANF]

I suspect that SAFER walls have an unfortunate side effect of making it more likely to guide the car into the fence.  Probably the horizontal distance between the wall and the fence, as well as deformable nature of the wall allowing for temporary ramping, makes fence contact in single car accidents more likely.

Yeah, maybe.

Speaking of unfortunate side effects of safety features, ever since I saw Robert Wickens's accident in slow motion I have been wondering if he had been better off without wheel tethers. The wheels, attached only by the tethers and with still inflated tyres, seemed to make repeated contact with the barrier and the fence, and it looked to me like it was perhaps the left front wheel rather than the nose that got stuck in the fence or struck a fence post, and I wonder if maybe the car would have rotated differently had that wheel not been tethered. But what do I know?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Yeah, maybe.

Speaking of unfortunate side effects of safety features, ever since I saw Robert Wickens's accident in slow motion I have been wondering if he had been better off without wheel tethers. The wheels, attached only by the tethers and with still inflated tyres, seemed to make repeated contact with the barrier and the fence, and it looked to me like it was perhaps the left front wheel rather than the nose that got stuck in the fence or struck a fence post, and I wonder if maybe the car would have rotated differently had that wheel not been tethered. But what do I know?

I don't think wheel tethers are for drivers' safety, they're for spectator safety.  I imagine that no one ever thought that having 20 pound weights swinging on a rope near the driver's head was a good thing for the driver having a crash, but the risk was considered acceptable enough given other risks mitigated.

[Peat]

They are of a prescribed length so that they can't strike the driver (while attached). 

Edited by Peat, 27 August 2019 - 08:48.