90 replies to this topic

[Risil]

So Takuma Sato has landed in hot water again, after an attempt to play Mika Hakkinen to Alex Rossi's Ricardo Zonta and Ryan Hunter-Reay's Michael Schumacher resulted in his car upside down and (briefly) on fire, hapless bystander Felix Rosenqvist in the catch fences and three more drivers out of the race on the spot.
 
After serious accidents also marred the 2015 and 2018 editions of the race, the Pocono circuit has come in for some criticism. Although it should be said that the safety problems all seem to happen immediately after a restart and can be traced back to some driver or other taking what even Sam Posey and Bobby Unser would've agreed were Big Risks.
 
Here's a video of the incident:

 
And here's Sato's onboard from Bobby Rahal's Private Reserve:

 
And here are the post-race quotes from the afflicted affected:

Alex Rossi:

Obviously, I didn’t get a good start – so that’s on me. But we were three-wide; Ryan was on the inside, I was in the middle and Takuma was on the outside. I can’t even begin to understand how after last year Takuma thinks that any sort of driving like that is acceptable. To turn across two cars, at that speed, in that corner at a 500-mile race is disgraceful, upsetting and may have cost us a championship. It’s upsetting. This team works too hard to have something like that happen.

Ryan Hunter-Reay:

This is ridiculous. Thank God everybody’s all right, you know. I thought we learned our lesson here, lap one of a 500-mile race. From my perspective I had a nice clean run on Rossi, I was almost three-quarters of the up way past him and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere I’m backwards. I saw myself hit the inside wall and saw myself coming back into traffic. I could see the field coming as I’m backing into it and I thought, man this could be really bad. Then I saw Felix go up into the fence and we have fence repairs again…

It is so important to gain positions at the start, because it is a track position race. It’s not like it used to be here, where if you had a good car you could knife through it. I came from the back three times one here and went all the way to the front. You can’t do that right now, so I think a lot of guys felt the pressure to gain some spots at the beginning…and it all hand-grenaded.

 

James Hinchcliffe:

It unfolded in front of us. We had a pretty good start with the No. 5 Arrow car. We were heading into Turn 2 kind of three-wide, and I knew that wasn’t a good idea, so I backed out. I thought I was actually gonna save us because it happened in front of me. I couldn’t see exactly what started it, but then the wreck sorta moved down to the inside… I was able to slow down, but it just slid out to where I was. There was nowhere I could go. It sucks. I mean it wasn’t too hard a hit, so glad everybody is ok. It’s a 500-mile race, I don’t know how many times we have to do this before people figure out that you can attack all you want, but it doesn’t give you a chance to win if you are in the fence.

 

Takuma Sato:

First of all, I am worried about Felix. Hopefully he is OK. I am sorry for all the guys fighting for the championship. Ryan and I were obviously racing at the exit of Turn 1 and it looks like Alexander had a slow start. We both went right and left (of Rossi) and I thought it was all clear. All the (track) seams also are putting the car really easy to get the lane change and everybody gets close. Unfortunately, it looks like we made contact for that.

 

Felix Rosenqvist:

First of all, it’s good to see that I’m cleared from the medical checks. Just with minor back pain and some headache. Hopefully I should be back to normal in a couple of days. A big thanks to the INDYCAR track staff and medical staff, did an awesome job looking after everything. Luckily the other drivers are OK as well, I think that’s the main thing.

 

That's what they think, but they have relationships to maintain, reputations to keep and may end up looking foolish if they start a massive crash in future. Paul Tracy in the NBC box suggested that Indycar should be looking at a race ban for Sato based on his driving on Sunday, and if anyone is an expert on getting banned it's PT.

 

What think you? There's a poll up there.

[Peat]

I was all aboard the "BURN HIM!" train Sunday night. But his onboard paints a different picture to that of the broadcast. 

 

He played his part, but it would be wrong to single him out. I think they all need a talking to and thier heads banging together. That was all so painful and pointless. 

[Stephane]

Looking at Rossi's onboard, it looks like he is coming towards Sato more than Sato coming to him.

 

The thing is, the line at that point is not strictly parallel to the track.

Edited by Stephane, 20 August 2019 - 13:41.

[Scotracer]

Watched it last night in the 30 mins highlights and it looked like it was Sato from Rossi's onboard, but watching the Sato onboard, he did not move his wheel or change direction and watching the Rossi onboard again in 0.25 speed, he does actually move towards Taku when Ryan gets a bit close.

 

Not Sato's fault.

[PayasYouRace]

I was quick to lay the blame at Taku’s feet initially but after seeing his onboard he wasn’t to blame. It was one of those racing deals and if anything the lack of good spotter coverage was more at fault. RHR obviously didn’t have a clear picture that he was on the bottom, 3-wide at that point.

[Beri]

Watched it last night in the 30 mins highlights and it looked like it was Sato from Rossi's onboard, but watching the Sato onboard, he did not move his wheel or change direction and watching the Rossi onboard again in 0.25 speed, he does actually move towards Taku when Ryan gets a bit close.

Not Sato's fault.

I do have to agree on that one after seeing the onboard footage of Sato many times over. Sato runs perpendicular alongside the wall. It's Sato who gets a nudge. He didnt deliver one.

[Yhamm]

I voted too fast and chose a ban but the more I watch the vids the more I think it's not Sato's fault

seems the 2 drivers on the inside started to go up a little bit approaching the corner without knowing it was 3 wide (or knowing too late)

 

but it was Sato's fault going 3 wide at that corner and in the first lap

doesn't deserve a ban tho, sorry!

[Claymore25]

Sato should have not being there.

 

To me, it's a race ban like Grosjean in Spa 2012.

[Imperial]

Why has the spotters comments or lack of been left unaddressed by the media (to my knowledge)?

I think this poll unfair without that evidence included.

I also feel the debate (which started in the Pocono thread) seems to be unfairly blurring the lines between a driver and a circuit.

Pocono is not the fault of Sato.

[Beri]

Sato should have not being there.

To me, it's a race ban like Grosjean in Spa 2012.

There is space for Sato. He has the speed to dive into that gap. In what racing world is it prohibited to do so? Not in this world.

[Frood]

Why has the spotters comments or lack of been left unaddressed by the media (to my knowledge)?

I think this poll unfair without that evidence included.

As I said in the Pocono thread - it doesn’t exonerate Sato for not looking in his mirrors, but these guys still rely on their spotters for a good deal of information; I’m surprised there’s been little so little discussion on this.

[Claymore25]

There is space for Sato. He has the speed to dive into that gap. In what racing world is it prohibited to do so? Not in this world.

 

A three wheel fight like that? The space was irrelevant. Read what Hinchcliffe said in the opening post.

[Spillage]

I voted for option 2. I think Sato was responsible for the accident, but I don't think he should have the book thrown at him. Oval racing is inherently dangerous and as long as single-seaters race on ovals there will be the chance that a serious accident like this can happen.

[JHSingo]

30 place grid penalty for the next race, and burned at the stake!

 

Just getting into the F1 spirit of these types of threads.

 

Racing incident, imho. Looked bad for Sato initially, but other angles don't seem quite as nearly cut 'n dry.

[sadler21]

these guys still rely on their spotters for a good deal of information; I’m surprised there’s been little so little discussion on this.

 

If anyone's been to Pocono, the view out to Turn 2 is pretty far. To relay anything from the front straight would be of little value (plus they're driving away at an angle in terms of viewpoint), and as I understood, the T2 spotters were on a flatbed truck, basically even with the ground (the infield is lower than the track), which essentially means there is no tangible spotter information that could help anyone in that sector of the track.

[TomNokoe]

In my position as someone who sometimes watches a little bit of the Indy 500 .......

 

The insane speeds and incredibly small margin of error means that apportioning blame in Indycar is perhaps the most difficult, or rather, futile, experience in forum-ing.

Maybe seasoned fans think different, but at those speeds if you change your line by a degree, and your opponent does the same - game over!

[BuddyHolly]

I was quick to lay the blame at Taku’s feet initially but after seeing his onboard he wasn’t to blame. It was one of those racing deals and if anything the lack of good spotter coverage was more at fault. RHR obviously didn’t have a clear picture that he was on the bottom, 3-wide at that point.

This is my feeling also! 

[Izzyeviel]

Racing incident. Sato was clearly at fault, he could've done something differently to avoid a crash. The cars move slightly to the right to take the racing line into the corner, and he left his car out there basically playing chicken with the other guys. Such a dumb and pointless thing to be doing on the first lap.  

[maximilian]

After reviewing ALL the videos.  RHR actually holds more blame than any of them, since he moved up for no particular reason, forcing Rossi to move up.  But he probably didn't know that Sato was on the outside, leaving no room for Rossi.  Sato's onboard shows he didn't steer down, while Rossi's shows he did steer up (as evidenced by the black line AND his wheel movement).

 

So, RHR should not have forced Rossi up - partial fault.  Also deserves mention that this is RHR's second first lap crash in a row!  Maybe HE needs to cool down.

Rossi moved up to avoid RHR and could have backed off when he saw he was being sandwiched - partial fault.

Sato could have backed off and/or moved up a little further - partial fault.

 

Conclusion - classic racing incident.

[PiperPa42]

After seeing the videos, I'd say it was a racing incident. Sato certainly isn't anymore to blame than RHR and Rossi.

[Marklar]

Meh, the onboards pains a drastically different picture. He got already the stern talking-to by the kneejerk reactions from all directions during the race, that should be enough.

[ArrowsLivery]

Sato needs a ban on ovals, probably for life. The guy has absolutely no regard for safety.

[red stick]

I voted for the stern talking to, but particularly for a veteran driver with an Indy 500 win, I'd hope he'd find a way to rise above rookiesque mistakes.  Out Lap 1 at Pocono.  Booted Ericsson into Hinch on, yes, Lap 1 at Mid-Ohio.  Ran into a pit crew member at the Indy 500.  To finish first, you must . . . make it out of Lap 1.

[Anja]

I'm not sure if I can be so generous to Sato as some of you. Yes, RHR and Rossi were moving to the right - but they were on that trajectory even before Sato got alongside them. In view of that Sato really should have left more space there. And as far as I can see he did start turning left just before the contact - not by much, but enough for the tiny margin he left himself to disappear. I would put the blame mostly to Sato but it wasn't some atrocious error, the situation was made worse by the fact that RHR and Rossi accelerated their move at the worst possible moment. Was it enough for a penalty? Nah. 

Edited by Anja, 20 August 2019 - 18:30.

[Clrnc]

I was quick to lay the blame at Taku’s feet initially but after seeing his onboard he wasn’t to blame. It was one of those racing deals and if anything the lack of good spotter coverage was more at fault. RHR obviously didn’t have a clear picture that he was on the bottom, 3-wide at that point.

This definitely. Abit mind boggling people could watch Taku's on board and still vote for a race ban. 

[Frood]

I think this is the most similar incident I can think of in recent memory; not really the same situation but still cars moving up and down the racetrack whilst alongside each other:

 

 

No penalties.

[Risil]

There's a good quote from that video: "Third one to go in should be the first one to come out".

[ANF]

I'm not an expert in oval racing, but here are some things about this accident that I find particularly confusing:

Sato did turn left, down on Rossi, thinking "it was all clear", but on Twitter he says he "just drove straight".
Rossi turned right and moved up the race track while Sato had a run on outside. And at the final moments he did turn right, up towards Sato, to avoid RHR who kept coming up the race track.
RHR is accusing other drivers of being too aggressive but seems oblivious to the fact they were three-wide and he squeezed his teammate in a sandwich.

Apportionment of blame for the accident: 50% on Sato, 50% on RHR, 25% on Rossi, 50% on Pocono, 50% on the spotters maybe. That's 225% blame because it was that silly/stupid/dangerous/avoidable – or maybe unavoidable given that none of the drivers really seems to have known what they were doing.


Picture 1. The gap that Sato went for and the closing of that gap, as seen from Graham Rahal's helmet camera. The dark lines run parallel to the track. (Note that Rahal was moving to the left, making the gap between Rossi and Sato in the last frame look even smaller.)

Speaking of being too aggressive, there was a close call moments before the accident happened:

Rossi and Dixon came very close to banging wheels coming out of Turn 1.
Why on earth did Rossi keep his car only inches away from Dixon's when the track is so wide? To get a side draft down the straight?
And why did Dixon follow the leaders and move down the race track when Rossi was still there? Did he not realise how close they were?

Apportionment of blame for the close call: 50% on Rossi, 50% on Dixon, 50% on Pocono, 50% on the spotters maybe. That's another 200% blame!


Picture 2. Dixon and Rossi moving down the race track, from one dark line to another, at something like 210 mph.

I couldn't help but notice that IndyCar promoted the race at Pocono by highlighting that the track is so wide that drivers can go five or six, even seven-wide! before Turn 1: https://twitter.com/...108601973673987 But really, what's the point of going seven-wide at 220 mph when three experienced drivers can't even manage to go three-wide down a straight without wrecking?

Anyway, keep your eyes out for my future forum post 'Why I Really Like Some Aspects of Oval Racing But Really Have a Hard Time Appreciating Others'.

(I honestly don't know if he deserves a penalty.)

[prommer]

RLL doubles down by issuing an OFFICIAL STATEMENT saying that Sato is exonerated from turning down.

 

https://rahal.com/20...august-18-2019/

 

What gets me is that it doesn't matter if everybody was driving straight as an arrow, they can still run into each other. That's what the letter V is all about!

[prommer]

And watch the full first lap video from RLL in this tweet.  Worth it just for the stylized track map alone #whatturn8

 

https://twitter.com/...935823299010565

[ANF]

"The data and video clearly shows that Takuma did not turn down the track into Alexander in this incident and in fact the first steering wheel movement made by Takuma was to the right, as he tried to correct his car after the initial contact."

Oh well, I thought the last six or so frames (at 30 fps) before that steering movement would suggest that the car did move down the track. In those frames, the distance to the wall seems to increase and the right front wheel is clearly moving away from one of the dark lines that run parallel to the track.

[Atreiu]

People mention drivers seeking the racing line. The first lap of a race is the most dangerous time to seek the racing line. Especially at Pocono, the odds the line is already taken are immense.

Also, 95% of all crashes are avoidable in hindsight, if only driver A did this or that.

To me it’s a racing incident.

[Tsarwash]

I have no opinion on the incident, (I don't know anywhere near enough about oval racing to be comfortable forming one), but I find it interesting how different and polarised some of the opinions above are. 

[RacingGreen]

My initial reaction was that Sato was to blame and the more I watch it the more I think I'm right.

[racinggeek]

Probably a racin' deal, but of the three main participants, it's more on Sato for diving up the outside to go three-wide on the approach to what's basically a two-wide corner even in IndyCar. RHR was already mostly alongside and passing Rossi.

 

Also, you get different opinions from watching the various angles. Yes, the Sato defenders are saying the onboards from the three cars shows Sato going straight and the other two moving up on him.

 

But, look at the head-on shot back down the straightaway and you see RHR and Rossi move up about half a lane, yes -- then stop moving up as Sato pulls alongside. And Sato does pull left just a fraction before he hits Rossi from that angle.

[maximilian]

If anybody deserves chief blame for this incident, it's RHR, who moved up without reason into his title contender team mate, basically triggering the entire situation.

Furthermore, this is the second serious incident RHR has been involved in, in as many years at Pocono. His car was also the one that sent Wickens flying into the fence.

[racinggeek]

If anybody deserves chief blame for this incident, it's RHR, who moved up without reason, basically triggering the entire situation.

Furthermore, this is the second serious incident RHR has been involved in, in as many years at Pocono. His car was also the one that sent Wickens flying into the fence.

As for last year, RHR left Wickens a lane at the bottom of the track going into the corner. Wasn't much but it was there, and Wickens didn't even have a wheel up on RHR's cockpit.

[loki]

Just another low percentage Sato Move ™.  It was lap one, there was barely any space there and he had a ton of time to draft back in and 500 miles to make it up.  He shows blasts of being fast but more often he’s making bone head moves.  Classic Sato, low percentage moves at the wrong time. 

[jonpollak]

You get no guesses at what I think.
Jp

[Beri]

You get no guesses at what I think.
Jp

#JPMatters
#WhatWouldJonDo

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Back in the day when AJ Foyt was active, drivers usually policed lap 1 accidents among themselves.

1966 and GD Coogan spring to mind.

[Ellios]

I've made it up in my head that Sato has been the cause of more pile ups on ovals than any other driver in history.

 

Any truth to my sweeping generalization ?

[maximilian]

No.  The burden of proof is on YOU.

[paulb]

IMHO, Sato's move was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Seems like an informal drivers-only meeting with would be the best way to address this. Twitter is not a vehicle for honesty.

[Clrnc]

People who says Sato shouldn't have gone for the gap because its lap 1, just quit watching racing. If he slows down or don't have the balls to go over there he might as well just stay home. He was just driving straight and didn't expect RHR to squeeze Rossi who in turn tried to avoid RHR. 

[Risil]

I think you only get half the picture if you focus on whether drivers moved up or down the track. Rossi and RHR were always going to do that if they wanted to make the corner. They managed to move right in unison because 1) each knew the other was there and 2) each knew how the other was going to behave. RHR was making a pass that required him to draft and then pull alongside for almost the whole length of the back straight -- this is the standard kind of superspeedway move that all the drivers practise, and they could execute it blindfolded.

 

The root of the problem was Rossi's poor drive off the previous corner. Not a mechanical issue, as the NBC team clarified on the broadcast. This gave RHR the opportunity to slipstream and pass Rossi, but it gave an even bigger opportunity to the drivers on the outside with a lot of closing speed and a car-sized gap to dive into. Dixon goes first -- I can't add anything to ANF's analysis of this move so go look at that post.

 

I reckon this is where the drivers are starting to improvise. When there are two cars involved, the pass is relatively predictable and controlled. Add a third car on the outside and you're relying on 1) Rossi noticing even while he's keeping an eye on RHR, and 2) RHR not moving across on Rossi, even though he has no way of telling that there's someone two lanes across. Dixon has the closing speed to get the outside pass done on the straight, but he's still relying on Rossi and RHR not changing direction, and/or Rossi's spotter letting him know Dixon is there, and/or one of the three having the room to correct course or pull back if a collision looks imminent. Spotters are amazingly useful but I reckon at some point there's just too much going on and drivers just have to trust each other not to do anything unpredictable.

 

In short, the guy on the outside is gambling with everyone's race, including their own. I mentioned it further up the thread, but the standard driver's meeting guidance is that the third one in is the first to get out. If you're the driver who forces the issue by shoving your car alongside an overtake in progress, it's primarily your responsibility that everyone completes the move safely.

 

In Dixon's case, it was a close thing but everyone managed. Unfortunately for everyone Sato was drafting Dixon and thought he could also pass both Andretti cars before they moved up the track to take the corner. He didn't have time and there was a collision. It was Sato who forced the issue and therefore Sato bears the blame. Any argument that some combination of RHR, Rossi and Sato share equal blame is founded on the notion that once they are three-wide, they all have the same right to be there and should battle it out amongst themselves to be first into the corner. That makes sense in the context of a slow road course turn, or if there are only two drivers racing for position, but with three drivers on a superspeedway that's a recipe for Mad Max stuff. It isn't -- or rather it shouldn't be -- the assumption they're operating under. If Indycar wants this assumption to hold then they need to back it up with action, which I think means a serious sanction on the guilty party.

 

So yeah, I do think Sato should receive a race ban. To my memory this is the fourth seriously inadvisable thing he's done in Indycar (and by "seriously inadvisable", I mean "someone could easily have been killed"), the other three being driving around Monaco with a smoking engine in 2004 (equal blame with his team on that one), failing a low percentage move on the last lap of the 2012 Indy 500 and spinning into the path the Ganassi cars, and dawdling on the racing line on a fast, blind corner with no runoff at Houston in 2013. Motor racing is all about going up to that line but Sato always pushes it a little further that what he can get away with. He's not the only one (Aleshin and Karam were a bit like this too) but when something blows up in Indycar he is often the one found to be holding the match. Many of the drivers are sick of him and I don't think they were playing politics when the finger of blame pointed his way in the aftermath of the crash. It gives me pain to say this because Sato is a remarkable driver and I admire anyone who leaves their scene to go and race ovals in America. But they should throw the book at him here.

[maximilian]

Jeez, Risil... if you go back to 2004, I think you can find such incidents for literally EVERY driver on the grid who has been racing that long... 

[Frood]

Risil, I certainly don’t think you can hold the 2012 Indy 500 against Sato. If so, do you hold the incident at Indy this year against Rahal? He shouldn’t have tried the move on Bourdais AND it also resulted in retirements for Veach, Kimball and Rosenqvist. All Sato did in 2012 was take himself out.

Also you can’t hold Monaco 2004 against him as one of the three other inadvisable things he did in IndyCar as it was an inadvisable thing he did in Formula 1.

(Also, man with Sato avatar in defending Sato shocker. I know. I’m no better than the other fanboys)

Edited by Frood, 21 August 2019 - 13:56.

[red stick]

People who says Sato shouldn't have gone for the gap because its lap 1, just quit watching racing. If he slows down or don't have the balls to go over there he might as well just stay home. He was just driving straight and didn't expect RHR to squeeze Rossi who in turn tried to avoid RHR. 

 

Risil's reply is more elegant, but all racing is a constant assessment of risk-to-reward.  We laud breathtaking passes and review them on YouTube because they are successful applications of this essential motorsports art.  Unsuccessful attempts at passes, particularly those resulting in mayhem, not so much, although they also have a following on YouTube.  Sato's sense of risk-to-reward appears out of calibration.

[juicy sushi]

I think Taku and maybe RHR deserve fines for attempting to squeeze other drivers. This wasn’t a road course breaking zone, this was a flat turn on an oval. You need to hold your line and continue to give room. Particularly since spotters can’t provide useful information at that section of track.

Pocono is dangerous, you can’t just try to shoot the gap to stay in Dixon’s draft, and no one wins a 500-mile, or even 250-mile oval race in Turn 2. I can’t see blame for Rossi as he was giving space on both sides. Taku and RHR needed to remember where they were.