98 replies to this topic

[Beri]

RaceFans has brought the news that a new team might be joining in 2021.

https://www.racefans...n-grid-in-2021/

In short:
- Haas model will be followed
- Founder is Benjamin Durand (former director of SMP Racing and BR Engineering)
- Head of aerodynamics is Tim Milne (Renault, Honda, Super Aguri, Toyota, Caterham and Manor)
- Base of operations near Silverstone
- Engine deal has been signed
- No official announcement yet
- FIA still has to agree

Edit:
I saw Marklar already posted the news in tanother thread:
https://forums.autos...ears/?p=8860551

Yet I do think these plans seem solid enough to earn its own thread.

Edited by D.M.N., 23 August 2019 - 15:28.
Was incorrectly sourced to GPToday.net for unknown reasons

[Risil]

Pantera, eh? No doubt they'll be aiming to "thrash" the opposition.

[Rodaknee]

Russian money ?

[MKSixer]

Russian money ?

It's ALL Russian money.  

[Disgrace]

Pantera, eh? No doubt they'll be aiming to "thrash" the opposition.

 

Can we not be so heavy on the puns?

[ElectricBoogie]

Any team added to the grid that is not a new tailender is most welcome in my book.
Curious whether they'll take the same Haas is drinking from Ferrari, or a similar deal with another team that could use the money and data. Perhaps in light of reduced budgets, offer employees a new home, hold on to large manufacturing facility when cars will be simpler.

- Red Bull could do it, even Toro Rosso to make sure it books a profit rather than a loss.
- Williams would perhaps love to have a B team to remain "independent", but they are not super attractive right now. Or might another aero team feel confident to just do way better and just need a decent car to hang the aero bits from?
- Mercedes might want a B team as it's going a bit too well for Ferrari with Alfa and Haas.
- McLaren are always ambitious
- Renault are overspending, underperforming thus could use some cost coverage with a second PU customer. You're not a top team without a B team.

[Rodaknee]

They'd be the 11th team and under Bernie Rulz, they'd be entitled to nothing for X years and if they stayed 11th, nothing at all from the prize pot.

 

It'll be interesting to see how the 'new' FOM go about ensuring new teams remain solvent or how an old team pushed out of the prize fund can survive.

[Kalmake]

They'd be the 11th team and under Bernie Rulz, they'd be entitled to nothing for X years and if they stayed 11th, nothing at all from the prize pot.

 

It'll be interesting to see how the 'new' FOM go about ensuring new teams remain solvent or how an old team pushed out of the prize fund can survive.

At least early 2021 proposals had the price pool automatically expand if more teams join. As they look to flatten it anyway, most teams wouldn't be getting less than now.

[PayasYouRace]

With a name like that they need to bring the de Tomaso name back to F1.

[BertoC]

Seeing that Mercedes and Ferrari already supply 3 teams, my guess would be a Renault B team following the Haas model buying parts from Renault.

[Anja]

Sounds pretty serious, a lot of solid information. Fingers crossed. 

[maximilian]

Honda also has capacity, right?  #TeamAsia... 

Edited by maximilian, 23 August 2019 - 16:32.

[Fastcake]

There are three empty slots on the grid, so I'll welcome anybody who wants to set up a F1 team. Even a perpetual backmarker rocking over the precipice is something, and gives extra opportunities for drivers than the current thin grid. I know some would prefer not to have more cars if they aren't competitive enough, but I think we can't afford to be picky.

 

This consortium seem to have experienced people involved, which gives them more credibility than a Stefen operation, but then there's been several potential new entrants over the past decade with similar credentials that have come to nothing. I'll remain cautiously optimistic. 

 

Something I am more intrigued about is whether or not we'll have another 2010-style flood of entries when the new entry process opens. It's no surprise that the FIA was planning to launch a tender when the new regulations and financial scheme were settled, but I wonder if it's good enough if we'll have more interested parties than slots.

[ar1]

- Mercedes might want a B team as it's going a bit too well for Ferrari with Alfa and Haas.
 

 

Smart F1

[statman]

the last thing F1 needs is another satellite team, aka "big team puppet". So hopefully independent.

[MikeV1987]

Sounds good, glad they are allegedly going down the Haas route. I don’t want to see another HRT, etc.

[Paco]

I’ll believe it when it happens, that said.. another Haas like shill.. no thanks’. Frankenstein cars hobbled together with from here n there... no thanks.. another none front of the grid ever tram due to buy bits from werks teams... no thanks. Enough with b teams already. We don’t need puppies taking milk from their mothers, we need another RB entry.. not minnows. At least stroll seems interested in maintaining the hertiage of FI.

Edited by Paco, 23 August 2019 - 21:48.

[PayasYouRace]

F1 could do with any new entries it can get. As long as this doesn’t turn into another StefanGP sham, then great. Also, while I don’t wish any team to do badly, F1 is really missing a set of backmarkers. At the moment we have a front end and a midfield and that’s it. There aren’t any little teams that bring up the back of the grid and give those wildcard young drivers a shot.

[jcbc3]

Williams?

[PiperPa42]

Williams don’t make a set, you need two teams for that.

[William Hunt]

there were rumours of a chinese team planning to enter and setting up a base in the UK, those rumours haven been going around for the past 1,5-2 years , this most be the one I guess

[PayasYouRace]

Williams?

 

They're not a little backmarker team in terms of their resources. They're just at the back of the midfield.

[EvilPhil II]

Most likely replacing Renault following their exit.

[jcbc3]

They're not a little backmarker team in terms of their resources. They're just at the back of the midfield.

 

Then the trouble was application of said resources. But I'd say that until now, they've been separated from the midfield. Hopefully, they have unlocked 'something'. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Sterzo]

the last thing F1 needs is another satellite team, aka "big team puppet". So hopefully independent.

What do Haas actually do that's detrimental to racing?

In which races have Ferrari used their "puppet"?

[Garndell]

Pantera, eh? No doubt they'll be aiming to "thrash" the opposition.

 

 

Can we not be so heavy on the puns?

 

Any team has to learn to before they can run.

 

RIP Dimebag

[noikeee]

What do Haas actually do that's detrimental to racing?
In which races have Ferrari used their "puppet"?

Not directly in the races but they give Ferrari disproportionate political power.

I'd rather have more fully independent teams but I guess if we have more cars in a partially-independent team I'll be happy enough. Hopefully they're aligned with Renault though, we don't need even more teams aligned with Mercedes, Ferrari or RB. And I can't imagine McLaren can provide a B team.

[AustinF1]

I heard they've already lined up their first sponsor...

 

[Jellyfishcake]

To be honest, I'll take more teams as backmarkers, one it'd mean Williams wouldnt be last.

 

but in general 10 teams is simply not enough, we need more cars so that more drivers can enter the sport.

 

So if more teams want to join based on the Haas model, it'll be good for the sport.

[absinthedude]

I’ll believe it when it happens, that said.. another Haas like shill.. no thanks’. Frankenstein cars hobbled together with from here n there... no thanks.. another none front of the grid ever tram due to buy bits from werks teams... no thanks. Enough with b teams already. We don’t need puppies taking milk from their mothers, we need another RB entry.. not minnows. At least stroll seems interested in maintaining the hertiage of FI.

 

Sigh.....it's not a Frankenstein car hobbled (or cobbled) together with parts from here and there. 

 

And the heritage of F1 certainly involves plenty of customer parts and even off the peg customer cars and engines.

 

Sometimes I really scratch my head when reading these forums. 

[absinthedude]

To be honest, I'll take more teams as backmarkers, one it'd mean Williams wouldnt be last.

 

but in general 10 teams is simply not enough, we need more cars so that more drivers can enter the sport.

 

So if more teams want to join based on the Haas model, it'll be good for the sport.

 

 

I don't mind if they're at the back as long as they're not trailing by a couple of seconds a lap. The level of performance usually shown by Minardi or by Williams in 2019 should really be the minimum....it's respectable (not for Williams, but in general) to turn up with two cars that are well presented, not miles off the opposition and which have good reliability. 

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

I don't mind if they're at the back as long as they're not trailing by a couple of seconds a lap. The level of performance usually shown by Minardi or by Williams in 2019 should really be the minimum....it's respectable (not for Williams, but in general) to turn up with two cars that are well presented, not miles off the opposition and which have good reliability.

Yes, for them teamowners, but not for us spectators

We want to see the laughing stock. And we are amuzed by it. And entertained. And Thats the whole point of showbusiness

[William Hunt]

I looked up who else is involved in the management of this new team and Frenchman Michel Orts is also registered as a Director (alongside Benjamin Durand)

Durand & Orts were rumoured to be planning to set up a team with Asian (read Chinese) money around 2 years ago, that team would have been called 'China Racing' at the time but then we didn't hear about the rumour again

 

Orts has driven some sportscars in the past and is known to have contacts in China

https://www.racingsp...hel-Orts-F.html

 

Orts & Durand are the 2 only shareholders that were registered!

The company was registered at Cardiff on the 28th of January 2019 under the name Panthera Team Asia Limited, their office / administration address is in London, it's a private company limited by shares with just 2 shares (for Durand & Orts)

 

So very little is know about them at the moment, it seems odd that only 2 shareholders are involved but there must be a financial backer funding the operaton, probably from China, that we don't know about but I find it a bit weird that this backer has no shares in the team, off course that may change in the future

Reports from France claim that the money is coming from China 

 

I did find a company based in Bangkok, Thailand, that's named 'Panthera Group', don't know if that has anything to do with the project, from their website:

"The Panthera Group has significant experience in the structure and financing of start-up companies having owned, operated or consulted on more than 70 projects in the past 25 years as far afield as Hong Kong, Thailand, China, UK, USA, Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore. Over the past 12 years the focus has been in Thailand. "

 

With so little information available I remain hopeful but also sceptical about the chances of this team making the grid

 

What surprises me is that SMP is, as far as we know, not preparing to enter F1 because they should have the finances to do it

 

In Silverstone some names were mentioned as possibly beiing involved in a new F1 entry but none of those seem to be involved here

Edited by William Hunt, 25 August 2019 - 16:26.

[statman]

^^ regarding Orts:

 

 

from reddit regarding this Chinese rebranding name ^^^

 

https://www.reddit.c...eam_joe_saward/

 

The current director of the company is a Frenchman called Michael Orts. There is also a racing driver by the same name. Might not mean much, but certainly interesting.

Edit: The former director of the company is an Italian named Edi Gay, who raced on the same team as Orts in FIA GT.

He's also director in a company Gold Door Builders Limited, and formerly in Ville Management Limited:https://beta.compani...Bc/appointments

Edit: And also in a French law firm Orts Associés?
http://www.orts-asso...bres-du-cabinet

Edit2: If I had to guess, the two earlier companies are related to the GT racing they did. In some files here there's information on the company's fixed assets being motor vehicles.

 

 

 

It's worth mentioning that the earlier discussed "China F1 Racing Team" with former racing driver Michael Orts, has changed it's company name back to "Bronze Fortune Ltd" on the 25th of September. Not sure what the intent was, maybe some deal fell through or they like to submit new filings just for fun..

[Paco]

Not directly in the races but they give Ferrari disproportionate political power.

I'd rather have more fully independent teams but I guess if we have more cars in a partially-independent team I'll be happy enough. Hopefully they're aligned with Renault though, we don't need even more teams aligned with Mercedes, Ferrari or RB. And I can't imagine McLaren can provide a B team.

Exactly.

[jjcale]

Any team has to learn to before they can run.

 

RIP Dimebag

 

If they call themselves Pantera F1 they will be my new favourite team ... I'm sure I wont be the only one. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

Are there still currency controls in China, limits on investments overseas, etc?

 

Just asking...

[InSearchOfThe]

If they call themselves Pantera F1 they will be my new favourite team ... I'm sure I wont be the only one. 

 

Only if Honda don't regress and this becomes their theme song.

 

[Myrvold]

What surprises me is that SMP is, as far as we know, not preparing to enter F1 because they should have the finances to do it

Indeed. Especially after pulling out of WEC. Then again. They would not be able to fight for wins, and only russian drivers available would be Sirotkin and Petrov. I can see why they just doesn't bother with F1.

[PayasYouRace]

https://www.autospor...id-slot-in-2022

 

Panthera still seems keen for a 2022 entry.

[pdac]

Any extra team is most welcome in my book. But I will remain cautious until they actually line up on the grid (or I see cans of Rich Energy in my local store)

[William Hunt]

There's not only Panthera, there is also Campos who insist  they also still want to go to F1 asap. If a team can produce a car that passes the crash tests, pay the entry fees and be in order with the rules the FIA (and the other teams) should not block them, competition should be open for anyone who wants to compete as it  was in the '80s-'90s. If they end up going bankrupt that's in the end the responsibility of the team entering but the FIA should make it financially do-able and provide more conditions for a playing field that's more level.
Blocking prospective teams at a time when the future of F1 is in danger would be totally irresponsible but it seems like Todt & Brawn only want teams in that are either car manufacturers or owned by a billionaire. Adrian Campos is a real racer, he did 2 years of F1 and had a wealth of experience of running a team in GP2 / F2 so he comes from the autosport community and he's not stupid, he wouldn't want to enter if he thought it was impossible to produce a car that can perform at a decent level (and that's most importantly significantly quicker as the 107% limit)...

Bigger teams could also benefit from smaller outfits entering because they could place their junior drivers there. A certain Daniel Ricciardo made his debut at HRT.

Edited by William Hunt, 07 May 2020 - 15:31.

[jjcale]

Only if Honda don't regress and this becomes their theme song.

 

 

Only if LN is the driver (its bwoken, its bwoken  ) ..... but maybe he will come good and their car will be "Far Beyond Driven" ....

[ARTGP]

This is obviously a Renault customer team no?  With the links to Guanyu Zhou, and the French people involved.   And Renault having recently tried to get a deeper working relationship with their customer team (Mclaren), but failed. And someone like Panthera probably not looking to be fully independent.  Nevermind the connection to Asia with Nissan, and Infiniti.

Edited by ARTGP, 07 May 2020 - 16:23.

[Paco]

Obviously more teams the better but I still fear these Franken cars... with greatly reduced budgets, so should restrictions on the HAAS model being expanded and should be now more restrictive.. and a time phased in period to independance it year 1-2 A package allowed, year 3-4 B package allowed, year 5 full independance..

[Paco]

With the budget drop so big, be nice to See Honda go full team again..  

[BRG]

There's not only Panthera, there is also Campos who insist  they also still want to go to F1 asap.

 

Don't forget there's that team run by the blokes down at the pub, although progress is probably hindered by the lock-down.  Or was it a lock-in?  No news about them but we were assured that they were coming.  Whatever happened to Kodza?

 

The more that better, especially if some of the existing outfits are rocky.  If F1 wants to survive, it needs all the help and enthusiasm it can muster.

[HistoryFan]

As long as we don't know who is paying the money at Panthera Asia F1 it's not sure how serious that project really is.

[Spillage]

I think the TV money should be divvied up evenly rather than handed out as prize money (it can't be good for the sport to give more money to the teams that are already successful) but if we must have a prize money system then it should be extended to support new teams, who will almost certainly struggle for the first few seasons.

[maximilian]

The way things are going, it may well be that Panthera just buys up another team that is going under during the Rona.