60 replies to this topic

[Rediscoveryx]

So, in the last seven odd years we have seen two major shunts on the opening lap at La Source (and one major major on the run down to Eau Rouge back in '98). Thankfully no one got hurt in those instances, but things did get really close...

 

I was thinking about this the other day and the start/finish line is actually in a really weird place at Spa. I guess it follows the logic that the start/finish should always be on the same place as the pits, but is that really a law of nature that can't possibly be tweaked or given exception from time to time? I know that in Indycar for instance, they have the start at another part of the track at Mid-Ohio (and perhaps some other places as well).

 

So my thought was; why not move the start/finish to the Kemmel straight and have Les Combes as the first corner? That would allow for a longer run into turn one on the opening lap, a less tight first corner (reducing the risk for mayhem), and it could also have potential benefits at the end of the race. In a duel for victory, it would be pretty sweet with a last lap sweep through Eau Rouge and then two cars running side by side over the line. Think Häkkinens pass of Schumacher and Zonta with the added bonus of this also happening while crossing the finish line. Hypothetically it could have been what happened. 

 

Anyway, I'm not so sure what I actually think myself about this idea, but as the idea struck me and this is a discussion forum, I thought I'd at least hear you guys out.

 

So, good idea? 

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 30 August 2019 - 08:39.

[Jazza]

Indy has rolling starts. In F1 the start has to be at the pits for the crews to get back to the garage or to come back on the track in the event of an aborted start.

[SenorSjon]

Spa needs:

 

 

+

 

 

In IndyCar, the S/F line is moved for qualifying to prevent people having to go almost another lap to reach the pit.

Edited by SenorSjon, 30 August 2019 - 07:28.

[TheGoldenStoffel]

While we are on the subject of improving Spa, can we restore it into it's former glory with barriers, grass and gravel please.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=4-hvgsxM9eI

 

(still don't know how to embed these on this forum...)

Edited by TheGoldenStoffel, 30 August 2019 - 07:49.

[owenmahamilton]

In theory it's a good idea but the start line does need to be alongside the pits, could they move the pits to somewhere else, for example the Kemmel straight? If the pits were moved, I'd personally hope that they reinstated the Bus Stop chicane to how it used to be.

[Jovanotti]

Ironically, when there was potential for exciting drag battles to the finish line, all the way from Stavelot and through Blanchimont without Bus stop, the finish line was placed right after La Source...

Edited by Jovanotti, 30 August 2019 - 08:05.

[sgtkate]

In theory it's a good idea but the start line does need to be alongside the pits, could they move the pits to somewhere else, for example the Kemmel straight? If the pits were moved, I'd personally hope that they reinstated the Bus Stop chicane to how it used to be.

Why does it? It's not always next to the start line in Formula E, Rome this year had the pits on the other side of the track.

[Barty]

The very nature of the La Source corner and the short start/finish straight makes it a different first corner to any other track on the calendar. That's why I like it, so the start line should not be moved.

[hansmann]

Improve Spa , what kind of heresy is this ?!  ;)

 

Apart from that, to me it seems like first corner incidents have become a lot less common in recent years .

I think the unique thrill of the start at Spa should be maintained .

[NixxxoN]

The only thing I would change is the final chicane so two cars can fit better in there, the current one is a bit too narrow and too small and there is only one good line

[absinthedude]

What's wrong with a tricky first corner where sometimes drivers crash?

 

What I would do with Spa is reinstate the Bust Stop chicane first and then look at the tarmac run-off at various points.

[Risil]

They should line up the grid on a random part of the old Spa circuit and drivers should have to navigate back to the modern track before they could start racing. It would perfectly replicate the experience of F1 tourists trying to find their way round the old circuit.

 

"I... think that roundabout we just went through was Masta."

 

"Is this Malmedy?"

 

"Blanchimont should be just up ahe... oh bollocks."

[Stephane]

The only roundabout on the old circuit is at the entry of the track near the medical center.

[Ben1445]

The only roundabout on the old circuit is at the entry of the track near the medical center.

Well that’s just comically highlighting how lost the drivers would have got!

[midgrid]

 

They should line up the grid on a random part of the old Spa circuit and drivers should have to navigate back to the modern track before they could start racing. It would perfectly replicate the experience of F1 tourists trying to find their way round the old circuit.

 

"I... think that roundabout we just went through was Masta."

 

"Is this Malmedy?"

 

"Blanchimont should be just up ahe... oh bollocks."

 

 

Flashbacks to attempting to avoid the traffic at Le Mans and accidentally ending up on the Mulsanne Straight!

[Sterzo]

So, in the last seven odd years we have seen two major shunts on the opening lap at La Source (and one major major on the run down to Eau Rouge back in '98). Thankfully no one got hurt in those instances, but things did get really close...

 

How major were the major shunts, and how does the rate of major shunts compare with other first corners? Without some idea, we don't know if there's a Spa-specific problem, or whether moving the start would just move the shunts further along.

[Massa]

Spa is fine

[jcbc3]

 

...So my thought was; why not move the start/finish to the Kemmel straight and have Les Combes as the first corner? That would allow for a longer run into turn one on the opening lap, a less tight first corner (reducing the risk for mayhem),

... 

I'd say the first corner flow would look a bit like Barcelona (except being uphill). I think we've had plenty of accidents there too. 

[Rediscoveryx]

How major were the major shunts, and how does the rate of major shunts compare with other first corners? Without some idea, we don't know if there's a Spa-specific problem, or whether moving the start would just move the shunts further along.

 

 

That's not easy to quantify, but I think it's fair to say that both the Grosjean/Alonso crash in 2012 and the Leclerc/Alonso/Hulkenberg crash of last year were near-misses from potentially very serious injuries. It's not necessarily the volume of incidents as much as it is the consequences when the guys at the front need to brake down to a stand-still (more or less) and make a 180 degree turn, while the back of the field is still hurdling towards the corner.

 

But anyway, from a sporting perspective, I think that the major strength of moving the start/finish to the Kemmel straight would be when you have a close fought battle on the final lap. The final half of the final lap could be pretty epic with the final few corners being Blanchimont, bus stop, La Source, Eau Rouge, finish line.

[Spillage]

I actually quite like the possibility of a first-corner pileup - it adds a bit of spice to the start. So long as it isn't actively dangerous I think the start should stay where it is.

 

Agree with other posters that what Spa needs is gravel traps. Eau Rouge and Blanchimont should be a thin river of asphalt through a sea of gravel, where any mistake carries big consquences.

[AlexLangheck]

A 'proper' Bus Stop chicane - the current version is horrific.....

[Rediscoveryx]

A 'proper' Bus Stop chicane - the current version is horrific.....

 

 

Hmm... apart from the nostalgia factor, what was so good about the old bus stop? Easily the worst part of modern-era Spa.

[absinthedude]

The 2018 crash was rendered benign by the halo, and the danger of a crash similar to 2012 has likewise been seriously reduced. I don't see what's bad about having a tricky first corner....a standing start into a challenging corner is something that the skill set of a racing driver should include. Sure, it's a chance for a crash but it's also a chance to make up places. 

[PayasYouRace]

As a general rule, the shorter the run into the braking zone, the more likelihood of accidents. Of course there's no accounting for mistakes which can happen anywhere, but the there are reasons for the trend. On a short run to a first corner such as La Source with a harsh braking zone, the back of the grid is travelling faster than the front, and it leads to bunching up and higher potential for accidents.

 

Ignore 1998 as that was a special case in heavy rain.

 

There's no specific reason for the pits and start/finish line to be at the same place, only that it makes it easier to regroup in the case of an aborted start. Even in F1 history there are examples such as your Indycar at Mid-Ohion one. When F1 ran at Long Beach, for most years the start was held in the now familiar location on Shoreline Drive while the pits and finish line were up at the now disused section at the top of the hill at Ocean Blvd. Even stranger was Anderstorp, which had the S/F line in a completely different location to the pits, and neither was on the longest straight.

 

If the aim is to avoid first corner pile-ups, the easiest and safest thing F1 could do would be to use the old pits and starting grid on the run down to Eau Rouge. It might seem odd at first but the grid was removed from here because Eau Rouge had those barriers at the time. Now it has plenty of run-off. If you look at tracks which rarely have first corner crashes, you need to look at places like Silverstone. Before the pits were moved, it was very rare to have a major first lap incident because the cars were going through the high speeds of Copse, Maggots, Becketts, Chapel and Stowe and only reached a major braking point halfway round the lap at Club. Now it's similar with Abbey and Farm and it's only the hard braking of Village which means we see more problems. If at Spa they started with Eau Rouge, Raidillon and Les Combes there would be fewer accidents.

[absinthedude]

The old Bus Stop provided an overtaking opportunity if one car came out of Blanchimont better than another, and gave a better entrance to the start/finish straight. The new one is just horrible. It has no advantages and several disadvantages.

[Jovanotti]

The old Bus Stop provided an overtaking opportunity if one car came out of Blanchimont better than another, and gave a better entrance to the start/finish straight. The new one is just horrible. It has no advantages and several disadvantages.

Just stumbled upon this gem of an overtake recently: https://youtu.be/Mgy1NqCwx8Q

Totally couldn't remember it anymore. JPM

Edited by Jovanotti, 30 August 2019 - 11:36.

[BuddyHolly]

If you want to improve Spa, please fetch back the old bus-stop chicane.

[f1paul]

I prefer the newer circuit (changed in 2007 was it?).

 

Just bring back the gravel traps at Rivarge, Pouhon, Eau Rouge/Raidillon and Blanchimont and Spa is immediately the best track on the calendar again for me by a long stretch.

 

Right now, it's lost its edge.

[w1Y]

being on pole is almost a disadvantage here. Which is why a 1-2 qualy is so important. Although i cant help but feel for ferrari any place between 1and 4 is great for them

[Beri]

Spa has already been butchered beyond recognition. It's in no means a circuit that needs a proper set of testies anymore. Eau Rouge/Radillon is just a simple flat out corner nowadays. Blanchimont allows drivers even to make mistakes. The bus stop is abysmal. And being a spectator, alongside the track, you no longer can hide under the trees because simply there are no trees lining the track anymore. Any rain is vaporated quite quickly nowadays because the treeline has been moved away from the track.
And yet people still are in awe of Spa. I cry myself to sleep tonight because I've seen the images from the track today and it is simply not the great track it once was anymore.

That being said, the track doesn't need a change of start and finish line. It is in a good spot and it won't change for the good. Because what are the alternatives? The run down to Eau Rouge? The start and finish line has been moved because the old one was deemed unsafe due to the Way Rouge being the first corner. Move it to Kemmel? Why..? Now you have the situation, if drivers stop practicing their bowling skills, that there is a tight corner before running down the hill towards the magestic butchered corner. After that there is a fantastic long straight which allow drivers to overtake immediately just 3 corners into the race. Leave Spa the way it is. It mustn't be butchered any more.

[BCM]

Just watching Verstappen head into the pits, I think what they should change is the pit entry. If they moved it so it was a slip lane entrance after the last corner just before the start/finish line, they'd probably open up a lot more options strategy wise. It would drop the pit lane penalty significantly.

Edited by BCM, 30 August 2019 - 14:21.

[Atreiu]

So, good idea? 

 

I don't think so.

 

Having the S/F at Kemmel would contribute to spreading the field far and wide during the first lap and neutralizing much of the action. The first run through Eau Rouge would already have the cars in single file formation and ruin the chances the field is mixed during the first lap.

 

The only change I'd ever consider is eliminating the bust stop.

[Brackets]

Just stumbled upon this gem of an overtake recently: https://youtu.be/Mgy1NqCwx8Q

Totally couldn't remember it anymore. JPM

Nice enough pass, but that's not the old busstop. It's the 'inbetween' busstop.

[Claymore25]

Spa was castrated enough times. The only good part that is left is start/finish before La Source.

 

To improve, the last chicane should be eliminated; the gravel should be back and maybe the original Eau Rouge

[Kalmake]

Why does it? It's not always next to the start line in Formula E, Rome this year had the pits on the other side of the track.

Only because FIA says so.

 

Haven't seen the FE. Maybe it was due to limited space in Rome.

[ArrowsLivery]

I think a more reasonable idea would be to move the finish line to after La Source. It would take the pit crew half an hour to get to the pits from the Kimmel straight.

[BRG]

I think a more reasonable idea would be to move the finish line to after La Source. It would take the pit crew half an hour to get to the pits from the Kimmel straight.

This.

 

Plus anyone who has actually driven the track rather than just seen it in the TV will know that the Kemmel straight is actually a surprisingly steep hill.  the cars would need handbrakes to stop them rolling back down the hill.   That's why there are few if any tracks with S/F lines on hills.

 

All the talk about reinstating the dreadful Bus Stop chicane must be coming from people who don't remember all the criticism of it when it was first imposed on a horrified motor racing community.  It was, not to overstate the issue, totally sh!t and removing it was the best thing done to Spa.

[PlatenGlass]

Spa has already been butchered beyond recognition.

Are you talking about since the olden olden days? Because as far as I can see, other than the bus stop, the track is virtually unchanged since it came back on the calendar in 1983.

Sure the tarmac run-off might be annoying but that's a separate issue from the track being beyond recognition.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Spa is perfectly fine as it is, apart from the absence of gravel run offs.

[Cavalier53]

Making Les Combes to the first set of corners will not prevent 1st lap mayhem. Last year I attended the two F3 races, just 18 starters. Only 16 left after Les Combes first lap...

Great set of corners for overtaking though!

Edited by Cavalier53, 30 August 2019 - 19:23.

[Junky]

Improving Spa is not touching in anything in the circuit.

Edited by Junky, 30 August 2019 - 19:24.

[Jovanotti]

Nice enough pass, but that's not the old busstop. It's the 'inbetween' busstop.

Which one do you mean, same layout as this but narrower?

[PlatenGlass]

Why does it? It's not always next to the start line in Formula E, Rome this year had the pits on the other side of the track.

I've always thought it was a bit weird that the start line is alongside the pits because e.g. it can make it difficult to know who crossed the line in the lead if someone pits. I remember Eddie Irvine saying he could have won in Argentina in 1997 by just pitting at the end because he would have got ahead of Villeneuve with the short-cut. I don't know if any tracks would allow for that now, but Schumacher also finished in the pits at Silverstone in 1998, because of the penalty.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 30 August 2019 - 20:57.

[Barty]

Which one do you mean, same layout as this but narrower?

 

Old bus stop is the one in this article: https://www.dailymai...rnage-1998.html (Schumacher 1997 picture)

[MikeTekRacing]

Don't fix it if it's not broken .

Not really sure what we're trying to fix here. sure, there is a short run to a slow corner, but that;'s a pretty exciting spot always.  Then cars are very close so that the run to eau rouge and the following straight are always full of action

[Bleu]

I've always thought it was a bit weird that the start line is alongside the pits because e.g. it can make it difficult to know who crossed the line in the lead if someone pits. I remember Eddie Irvine saying he could have won in Argentina in 1997 by just pitting at the end because he would have got ahead of Villeneuve with the short-cut. I don't know if any tracks would allow for that now, but Schumacher also finished in the pits at Silverstone in 1998, because of the penalty.

 

Nowadays it's not allowed and the driver who pits on the final lap is listed one lap down. It has happened to Doornbos in China 2005 and Buemi in Italy 2009. Both actually lost one position as a result but they were outside the points anyway. Doornbos (perhaps accidentally) overtook race winner Alonso metres before the chequered flag. 

 

Monza 2009 had Hamilton's crash on the final lap which sent SC out. I think it came out just ahead of Buemi and then SC went once around the track and Buemi just followed it to the pits.

 

The rule is not applied if the race is stopped for good - for example Button pitted on the final counted lap in Malaysia 2009.

[ANF]

Old bus stop:

[jcbc3]

Speak of daunting. Spa, greasy surface, slicks and two stroke MC's. 

[azza200]

They ruined Silverstone by moving the start finish line when they could of upgraded those pit facility's knocked down and built something better in its place. But no we got the crappy current configuration of Silverstone 

[JeePee]

Old bus stop:

Man, the track looks perfect there (apart from the hay bales of course). Beautiful kerbstones. So much better than the 2 meter wide strips we have now.

Must have been so modern in 1981.