122 replies to this topic

[NixxxoN]

We've seen more and more often the mess that is the final qualy run, where cars have fights for best possible spot, sometimes overtaking each other and breaking the gentleman's agreement more and more often.

 

So I think it would be a good idea to sort this out, making a scheduled, random order for final run, for all 10 cars in Q3, and everybody must respect it (and have the option to not run it if they dont want)

 

It would end the farce and also spice up things a little bit in qualy

 

The first part of Q3 would be free for everybody.

[Stephane]

Now, let them reap what they sow

[PayasYouRace]

Nah, they should just find some clear track and get one with it. If there's a car going slower than you are comfortable with, pass it. There's plenty of track for everyone.

[Jazza]

My issue with all this messing around is that they will bring out a virtual safety car (or a full one) during the race because there is a car parked behind a fence in another postcode from the racing line, but they let cars park in groups in the middle of the track whilst others are on their qualifying run. The clocks ticking for a massive accident with this stupidity.

[PayasYouRace]

My issue with all this messing around is that they will bring out a virtual safety car (or a full one) during the race because there is a car parked behind a fence in another postcode from the racing line, but they let cars park in groups in the middle of the track whilst others are on their qualifying run. The clocks ticking for a massive accident with this stupidity.

 

Maybe there's a solution there. If you're deemed to be going too slowly round the track a yellow flag should be shown. But if you're the cause of the yellow flag your best qualifying time is deleted so you can't ruin others' laps.

[Stephane]

THere was a max laptime during the "no-refuel" era. MAybe they should bring this back

[TomNokoe]

This is an indirect consequence of trying to make these long, heavy, wide cars race each other. They are super draggy. We never had slipstreaming battles even a few seasons ago.

[shure]

there's nothing wrong with the current format IMO.  Minor circumstantial issues, that's all.  No need to change

[Myrvold]

Nope, but as they have delta times for just about everything else. Make a delta time on in and out lap as well.

[ArchieTech]

I would rather see deltas to keep the minimum speed up on out/in laps, but with allowances for drivers to do what is sensible to get out the way of approaching cars. i.e. there shouldn't be a penalty triggered strictly by being outside the delta time if you've slowed and moved so as not to block the next apex for example.

 

This would hopefully avoid some of the massive speed differences we're seeing as cars on out/in laps are crawling round very slowly trying to preserve tyre condition, whilst others are on hot laps.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Why do we have to change anything? Leclerc went out in front and ignored the slip stream shinanigans and got pole? I think it's working perfectly fine as it is. If you want to leave your final run as late as possible and get a slip stream and screw your lap coz of it it's your own fault.

[Henri Greuter]

This suggestion reminds me what we had with the single car qualifying of 2003 ....

[Kalmake]

Teams have learned to play this game more and more optimally. That's why they end up in the same place. Meta "racing" shenanigans ensue.

 

I would prefer single lap Q3. Getting to see each lap would be nice.

[Man of the race]

The hideous one lap qualifying in any form. Not again, never.

[Rodaknee]

The farce is caused by the bloody awful Pirelli tyres. They only work in a tiny operating window to get a fast lap out of them. Return to proper tyres that are made for racing and not for showing and the drivers wouldn't need to crawl around the warm up laps.

[Henri Greuter]

The farce is caused by the bloody awful Pirelli tyres. They only work in a tiny operating window to get a fast lap out of them. Return to proper tyres that are made for racing and not for showing and the drivers wouldn't need to crawl around the warm up laps.

 

Then Pirelli has first to be told to make such tires. It is a well known fact that the current tires they made are very much on demand by the rule makers. Would be interesting to see what Pirelli would come up with if they could make whatever they wanted within a certain frame of freedom.

[BRG]

Agree with much of what has been said. 

 

F1 teams and drivers got themselves into this mess and have only themselves to blame.  Each team has a couple of hundred geeks staring at screens and devising 'strategy' and if they can't cope with the problem of going out and driving one fast lap in a 10 minute session, then they must learn to live with the consequences.

[jimjimjeroo]

20 minute race starting in the order of qualification in Q2

Edited by jimjimjeroo, 31 August 2019 - 20:00.

[Ivanhoe]

THere was a max laptime during the "no-refuel" era. MAybe they should bring this back

Don’t know, seeing Max’ run in Q1, about 9 cars had to seriously slow down to not ruin his lap. You don’t want them picking up the pace because they are about to exceed their max laptime in their in- or outlap. It’s a 7 km track, shouldn’t be to difficult to get a decent track position, just don’t leave it too late and slipstreams are a distortion of competition anyway, if you ruin your lap because of that, tough luck.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 31 August 2019 - 20:45.

[danmills]

Enforce a minimum lap average. Say, within 120% of their fastest time.

That will keep the flow moving and give you a margin of which to make your gap.

The slowing to an almost standstill is not acceptable and could cause collisions unecessarily. 

Edited by danmills, 31 August 2019 - 20:51.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Enforce a minimum lap average. Say, within 120% of their fastest time.

That will keep the flow moving and give you a margin of which to make your gap.

The slowing to an almost standstill is not acceptable and could cause collisions unecessarily. 

 

That'll cause havoc because if you start giving the pitwall that kind of delta we'll start getting calculations where people start driving to push people outside qualifying times. Instead of reverse grids you could do 1 lap qualifying in reverse order of the last grand prix result or the current championship standings. So if Bottas wins or Albon is leading the championship they have to go first and Kubica goes last.

[screamingV16]

Today was laughable, but lets not go back to the awful scheduled qualifying runs nonsense. As painful as it was, I'd rather let the teams work it out themselves. Was good to see Leclerc dismissing the dim strategy and one of the Red Bull guys telling Verstappen on his last run 'let's just get on with it'.

[Clatter]

There is no need to change anything to the format. There is plenty of time for the teams to go out on a clear track, but they all wait and go out together because they are worried about track evolution, and with a circuit the size of Spa if you cant find some clear track with only 10 cars out then your just plain dumb.

[scheivlak]

 

It would end the farce and also spice up things a little bit in qualy

 

Actually the farce spiced things up.

[Massa]

No no no no.

[Spillage]

I did like the one-lap quali of a few years ago, but I've come more and more to appreciate the art of being fast on Saturdays. Find the gap and execute the lap. Especially in changeable conditions, one-lap quali is just handing pole to the lucky guy who gets the track at its best.

[HP]

Provide tires that are not so temperature sensitive and not so quickly degrade would help a lot.

 

As for slip streaming, Leclerc showed that there is at least one different way to do it.

 

EDIT: No don't change the current format.

Edited by HP, 01 September 2019 - 03:57.

[teejay]

If you, as a multi million dollar team can't work out to get your drivers out in free air, you should suffer the issues that arise from that. 

[Rediscoveryx]

I think F1 should seriously consiser changing the qualifying format. There’s too much whinging about ’so and so ruined my lap’, penalties for blocking, drivers stacking each other up to get a clear lap and all of that. As a viewer, you can basically skip each session until the final minute because the first runs ate only indicative. Not to mention the fact that we never ever get to actually see the pole lap in real time.

It’s probably great for those who love to watch a static camera showing a bunch of cars crossing the start/finish line, while the commentators frantically try to communicate what’s happening on ten different simultaneous qualifying laps, but I don’t find that very exciting.

Scheduled runs would be an improvement, but if it were up to me I’d prefer the sport to revert back to the one-lap qualifying format, as that both allowed us to see every single lap, and it was ruthless to those who made mistakes. Which is an ingredient that is pretty mich missing now that drivers can go out and bank a lap on their first run.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 01 September 2019 - 05:06.

[george1981]

Then Pirelli has first to be told to make such tires. It is a well known fact that the current tires they made are very much on demand by the rule makers. Would be interesting to see what Pirelli would come up with if they could make whatever they wanted within a certain frame of freedom.

 

I think it is beyond Pirelli's ability to make tyres that perform on demand. They've been asked to make shorter life tyres, which resulted in tyres that had to be treated extremely carefully and then would then fall off a cliff at the end of their life. Whereas the bridgestones would have a more linear drop off in performance and the rate of drop off depended on how hard they were worked. 

[Pimpwerx]

Nothing needs changing with the circumstances are a result of driver behavior on specific circuits. It's not like the starting grid isn't based on merit right now. We wouldn't have had a different pole sitter. Nothing to see here.

[Rodaknee]

Nothing needs changing with the circumstances are a result of driver behavior on specific circuits. It's not like the starting grid isn't based on merit right now. We wouldn't have had a different pole sitter. Nothing to see here.

 

All we're seeing here is a few TV viewers responding to what they saw on the box involving 4 out of 10 cars.  I thought it was looking interesting and they'd have to kick off as soon as they reached the Bus Stop.  A touch of 4 wheel chess.

[TomNokoe]

I think F1 should seriously consiser changing the qualifying format. There’s too much whinging about ’so and so ruined my lap’, penalties for blocking, drivers stacking each other up to get a clear lap and all of that.

The format is fine.

It's the sensitive Pirellis, sensitive aero and massive slipstream affect (a consequence of the current regulations) that are the problem.

I mean we are slipstreaming eachother at high-downforce circuits now. It is ridiculous. Formula cars shouldn't have such insane levels of drag.

[Montie]

The best solution would be setting a delta time for your in and outlap.

[shure]

The best solution would be setting a delta time for your in and outlap.

I disagree.  I think the best solution is to leave it alone.   There really isn't a problem here that needs fixing

[Montie]

I disagree. I think the best solution is to leave it alone. There really isn't a problem here that needs fixing

Seeing as the two Mercedes were on the racing impeding Kimi and Kevin, then yes it’s a problem.

[Henri Greuter]

I think it is beyond Pirelli's ability to make tyres that perform on demand. They've been asked to make shorter life tyres, which resulted in tyres that had to be treated extremely carefully and then would then fall off a cliff at the end of their life. Whereas the bridgestones would have a more linear drop off in performance and the rate of drop off depended on how hard they were worked. 

 

It always surprises me how often Pirelli is being blasted for doing a bad job and all this praise for Bridgestone and Michelin because of the past.

Why?

Michelin? Oh yes, the company that had superior tires almost everywhere in 2005 but couldn't cope with a banked oval turn anymore....

 

Bridgestone & Michelin built tires for cars that can't be compared with the current cars which are over a meter and more longer in wheelbase, had different aero concepts etc and way more heavt as well.

If we got back Bridgestone and/or Michelin, the proverb that comes to mind for me is one that is used at the end of commercial advertisements for financial products:  "The results of the past are no garuantee for the future"

Edited by Henri Greuter, 01 September 2019 - 09:58.

[Clatter]

Seeing as the two Mercedes were on the racing impeding Kimi and Kevin, then yes it’s a problem.

They didn't impede anyone.

[geralt]

Seeing as the two Mercedes were on the racing impeding Kimi and Kevin, then yes it’s a problem.

1. They didn't impede them.

 

2. And if they had, they would have got a grid penalty. Where's the problem?

[NixxxoN]

It always surprises me how often Pirelli is being blasted for doing a bad job and all this praise for Bridgestone and Michelin because of the past.

Why?

Michelin? Oh yes, the company that had superior tires almost everywhere in 2005 but couldn't cope with a banked oval turn anymore....

 

Bridgestone & Michelin built tires for cars that can't be compared with the current cars which are over a meter and more longer in wheelbase, had different aero concepts etc and way more heavt as well.

If we got back Bridgestone and/or Michelin, the proverb that comes to mind for me is one that is used at the end of commercial advertisements for financial products:  "The results of the past are no garuantee for the future"

 

Michelin were kicked out of F1 because they would make too good / too durable tires.

On the other hand Pirelli will supply crappy non-durable tires no problem if they are asked to

[Rodaknee]

It always surprises me how often Pirelli is being blasted for doing a bad job and all this praise for Bridgestone and Michelin because of the past.

Why?

Michelin? Oh yes, the company that had superior tires almost everywhere in 2005 but couldn't cope with a banked oval turn anymore....

 

Bridgestone & Michelin built tires for cars that can't be compared with the current cars which are over a meter and more longer in wheelbase, had different aero concepts etc and way more heavt as well.

If we got back Bridgestone and/or Michelin, the proverb that comes to mind for me is one that is used at the end of commercial advertisements for financial products:  "The results of the past are no garuantee for the future"

 

If you believe in the last sentence, why bring up a race that took place 14 years ago?

[shure]

Seeing as the two Mercedes were on the racing impeding Kimi and Kevin, then yes it’s a problem.

It's not a problem.  Not one that needs separate legislation.  Occasionally things may happen but you cannot and should not legislate for every possible circumstance.

 

As I wrote in the Spa layout change thread, knee-jerk reactions to specific circumstances rarely turn out well

[shure]

It always surprises me how often Pirelli is being blasted for doing a bad job and all this praise for Bridgestone and Michelin because of the past.

Why?

Michelin? Oh yes, the company that had superior tires almost everywhere in 2005 but couldn't cope with a banked oval turn anymore....

 

Bridgestone & Michelin built tires for cars that can't be compared with the current cars which are over a meter and more longer in wheelbase, had different aero concepts etc and way more heavt as well.

If we got back Bridgestone and/or Michelin, the proverb that comes to mind for me is one that is used at the end of commercial advertisements for financial products:  "The results of the past are no garuantee for the future"

The fact that Michelin may have misjudged a single race isn't really comparable to the regular complaints on the tyres we get every season, to be fair.  

 

It's a different philosophy now, anyway, one that Michelin has gone on record to say they will have nothing to do with.  They want to make racing tyres, not show tyres.  Agreed that Pirelli have largely made what was asked of them.  Disagree that that absolves them of any culpability for some of the horrors we've had to endure or that the brief given was specific enough to mandate the exact compound with associated issues of thermal degradation and narrow operating window.

[Montie]

1. They didn't impede them.

2. And if they had, they would have got a grid penalty. Where's the problem?

Well Magnussen could not take the apex seeing both Mercedes was there.

[Rinehart]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is going to be a HUGE accident in Qualifying soon... we are one failed or miscommunicated radio message away from a car on a flyer smacking into an all but stationery car on an outlap. This bloody dangerous scenario has to be sorted out BEFORE this happens, not after the FIA have concluded their research into the causes of another fatality... Verstappen's lap on Saturday was almost too insane to watch, he was passing some cars with an approach speed of over 300kph difference. It's not just the absolute imperative that these out lap cars stay off line, but also, what if the car on a flyer drops it, as can happen on a qualy lap, some of these cars are in the firing line of that scenario too.

 

As usual everyone will be wise AFTER the event, but its quite obvious it's only a matter of time... 

[shure]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is going to be a HUGE accident in Qualifying soon... we are one failed or miscommunicated radio message away from a car on a flyer smacking into an all but stationery car on an outlap. This bloody dangerous scenario has to be sorted out BEFORE this happens, not after the FIA have concluded their research into the causes of another fatality... Verstappen's lap on Saturday was almost too insane to watch, he was passing some cars with an approach speed of over 300kph difference. It's not just the absolute imperative that these out lap cars stay off line, but also, what if the car on a flyer drops it, as can happen on a qualy lap, some of these cars are in the firing line of that scenario too.

 

As usual everyone will be wise AFTER the event, but its quite obvious it's only a matter of time... 

It's also only a matter of time before one driver hits another in a race, yet we understand that and allow them to race anyway.

 

Not trying to be facetious, but illustrating a point that there is always a balance between risk and reward (in the form of having a race at all).  The only way to guarantee that no two cars will hit each other in qualifying is to ensure that only one car is on the track at any point in time.  And they tried that and it was a major turn-off for many.  So they have to make compromises and also trust in the drivers to be sensible.  They also have punishment options available to them in the event a driver does something silly.  You cannot legislate for every single possibility (and you shouldn't try to, either, IMO).

[Rinehart]

It's also only a matter of time before one driver hits another in a race, yet we understand that and allow them to race anyway.

 

Not trying to be facetious, but illustrating a point that there is always a balance between risk and reward (in the form of having a race at all).  The only way to guarantee that no two cars will hit each other in qualifying is to ensure that only one car is on the track at any point in time.  And they tried that and it was a major turn-off for many.  So they have to make compromises and also trust in the drivers to be sensible.  They also have punishment options available to them in the event a driver does something silly.  You cannot legislate for every single possibility (and you shouldn't try to, either, IMO).

This is a daft response, your comparing the general act of racing with a clearly vastly greater SPECIFIC situation of danger within it. By your logic there should be no pit lane speed limit as we let them go as fast as they like the rest of the time! 

[shure]

This is a daft response, your comparing the general act of racing with a clearly vastly greater SPECIFIC situation of danger within it. By your logic there should be no pit lane speed limit as we let them go as fast as they like the rest of the time! 

No need to get personal, thank you.  I guess you didn't get the memo that opinions may differ.

 

It's not a daft response, it's just one you clearly don't agree with.  

 

You obviously haven't understood my post as there's a vast gulf between recognising that some things may happen and deciding to have no rules at all.  I specifically mentioned the balance that F1 needs to have and trying to legislate for every single occurrence is clearly at the far end of the scale, like doing nothing at all is at the other.

 

The situation we have now is looking at that balance and just bleating that something may happen is not enough to take action.  They already try to minimise the risk by the sanctions they have available for silly driving, but the only way to exclude it completely is to not allow two cars to share the track at all.  It seems you lean more towards the latter but that's just a question of degree and it's not daft to point out that your way isn't the only way.

[SenorSjon]

We've seen more and more often the mess that is the final qualy run, where cars have fights for best possible spot, sometimes overtaking each other and breaking the gentleman's agreement more and more often.

 

So I think it would be a good idea to sort this out, making a scheduled, random order for final run, for all 10 cars in Q3, and everybody must respect it (and have the option to not run it if they dont want)

 

It would end the farce and also spice up things a little bit in qualy

 

The first part of Q3 would be free for everybody.

 

Sounds like one lap qualifying or pole shootout and that is just yuck imo.

[NixxxoN]

Sounds like one lap qualifying or pole shootout and that is just yuck imo.

 

No, It would be the same as now but with random order so there will be no fights and controversy for getting the best running position or whatever.