122 replies to this topic

[djparky]

Let them sort it out o track, dealing with traffic is part of being a racing driver. Besides this is only really a problem at a couple of tracks a year. They all looked stupid today, hopefully they'll learn from that

[shure]

Everyone ought to read this article: https://www.motorspo.../burning-rubber

It actually discusses the technical side of the Pirellis and what their weakness is rather than the usual over-simplistic views.

Very interesting article, thanks.  Just bookmarked it

[PedroDiCasttro]

I'm all for it after what happened today, really.

 

Scheduled runs would also punish the drivers who mess up their laps, since there's only one.

[redreni]

No need to change the format, just introduce a maximum lap time and a maximum out-lap time (measured from pit exit to start line). Make it fairly fast, too, so as to require the slowest cars to run at 9/10ths in order to stay under it.

 

It might not give optimum preparation for the fast lap, but as this would be the same for everyone, it would be no problem and it would eliminate the really high speed differentials and closing speeds.

 

If you go over the maximum lap time your quickest time of the session is deleted, unless you had a legitimate reason for slowing down such as avoiding an incident, respecting a yellow flag, etc and provided you weren't driving unnecessarily slowly on parts of the track that were clear. No enforcement of maximum lap times when the track is declared wet.

Edited by redreni, 07 September 2019 - 22:33.

[baddog]

close the pitlane expected laptime+50% before the end of the session. Anyone not out at that point doesn't go out. Ban all stopping in the pitlane during qualifying. Introduce a delta minimum if still needed. 

[MarkRaishbrook]

The farce is caused by the bloody awful Pirelli tyres. They only work in a tiny operating window to get a fast lap out of them. Return to proper tyres that are made for racing and not for showing and the drivers wouldn't need to crawl around the warm up laps.

Maybe, but that's not what caused the "issue" in Q3 today.

[ATM]

Bwahahaha, they looked like drunken buffalos out there on their final run; with all these tow discussions they forgot to actually go racing (well, qualifying). For all these “best drivers in the world” claims, they really do some stupid sh*t lately.
Yes, yes, points are awarded tomorrow, I know, but that’s some strong egg on their faces. Serves them right.

Edited by ATM, 07 September 2019 - 23:37.

[THEWALL]

The reasons it was changed was because they would all sit in the garage for most of the session. However, that could be resolved by simply taking away the tyres at specific intervals (use them or lose them, so to speak). But, yes, the onus would be on the teams to sort themselves out if they just had an hour to do whatever and every car was there to the end (and so had the potential to ruin your run if you left it too late).

There may be other not so artificial incentives to make them use the whole hour: better track conditions (not necessarily happen towards the end), less traffic, testing of configurations, not wanting to leave everything for the last minute....Of course it should be combined with a less restrictive paradigm in general, in terms of tyres, parc ferme, engines, et. al.

 

I think that if they'd manage to bring back the essence of those fantastic qualifying rounds (the ones I remember were from the late 80s), where it was pure talent and courage, with car and driver at their best, F1 would re-gain a lot of its lost brilliance. Then again, the exact same thing goes for the races and the whole of the sport so...

[BalanceUT]

Nah, they should just find some clear track and get one with it. If there's a car going slower than you are comfortable with, pass it. There's plenty of track for everyone.

Well, there wasn't enough track for everyone. Two slower cars basically blocked the Ferraris from passing them for several seconds, effectively holding up the entire field.

[Christbiscuit]

Just make it that their out lap and in lap must be within a percentage of their fastest lap and make it tight so they need to give it some during both out and in laps.

Edited by Christbiscuit, 08 September 2019 - 01:29.

[Bleu]

I guess the minimum lap time has been set so there won't be problems in the rain either. Hamilton's pole two years ago was 1.35,5 and fastest qualifying lap (Q2) 1.34,6. And with lap between SC lines being notably shorter it tells a lot about how much speed they need to stay under the minimum lap.

 

For some reason there's no media kit available for Italian GP but in Spa the distance between SC lines seemed to be 6,23 km and the maximum time was 2.05 which means little under 180 km/h average speed (pole avg was around 245) and 2014 pole in wet was just over 200.

[barrykm]

Yesterday made me think of the current UK parliamentary shambles, everyone mucking about achieving nothing, chicanery..

[Kalmake]

Yesterday made me think of the current UK parliamentary shambles, everyone mucking about achieving nothing, chicanery..

But in sport it's fine that everyone is out there for themselves. There was no collective goal of everyone getting a clean lap in and having a nice time. The reality was that if you can't get a tow yourself, then it's best to ensure no one else does either. Fault was not in the competitors, but the rules (or policing).

[SWB]

Just make it that their out lap and in lap must be within a percentage of their fastest lap and make it tight so they need to give it some during both out and in laps.

 

I don't think it would stop a train of cars all falling over each other and blocking, it would just mean it's at a higher speed than the farcical out lap yesterday. 

 

I don't know why some teams aren't protesting other teams for blocking? I imagine it's the collective effort to say in unison 'it's the system at fault, not us', because pretty well everybody could have protested everybody else and lost grid places so it's a disingenuous standpoint from the teams blaming 'the system'. And after the F3 qualifying the teams must have been blind not to have raised the issue in briefings with the FIA to avert it, but yet again they'll be looking for their advantage and not the spectacle, so again disingenuous to blame 'the system'. You can see the dis-ingenuity from the teams because tyre temps are usually a major concern during the out lap, and nobody was going to be keeping them at optimum temperature in a slow train like that. Perhaps it's time for qualifying races instead? 

Edited by SWB, 08 September 2019 - 07:46.

[KeithD68]

As Ant Davidson said on Sky (does no one listen?) this is a particular problem at this circuit because of the circuit and the more draggy cars this year.  No qualifying doesn't need fixing.

Edited by KeithD68, 08 September 2019 - 07:52.

[pdac]

It's the same with all kinds of situations in F1. The teams thinking is always: firstly, don't do anything that might give an advantage to your opponents; secondly, don't do anything that might disadvantage you to your opponents; thirdly, do whatever might give you an advantage over your opponents.

 

This is what we saw at the end of quali yesterday. Everyone knew that if their car was in  front then those behind would get a tow from them - giving an advantage to them. They all had set a time and, therefore, established a position in the pecking order. The primary objective was not to improve but to simply not lose a position. This is the negative thinking that abounds in F1. But it's also not a stupid mindset to have (best to play safe as the foolhardy will almost certainly lose out).

 

So, if the FIA or Liberty want something different, then they need to bring in petty little rules to force the teams to have to do stuff they really don't want to do.

 

Edit:

I say petty rules, because that's the stick to beat them with. The FIA have been trying to use the carrot approach, but the teams do not care.

Edited by pdac, 08 September 2019 - 07:56.

[Clatter]

Well, there wasn't enough track for everyone. Two slower cars basically blocked the Ferraris from passing them for several seconds, effectively holding up the entire field.

There's more than enough track for everyone.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I do think they should adopt the Indycar method of having the end of the timed lap before the pitlane so drivers don't need to do a slow-down lap.

[F1 Mike]

This situation is hopefully a wakeup call for all of the teams.
I don't see the need for any knee-jerk reactions, we've had those in the past and it generally improves nothing.

[pdac]

This situation is hopefully a wakeup call for all of the teams.
I don't see the need for any knee-jerk reactions, we've had those in the past and it generally improves nothing.

 

Knee-jerk? The problems have been going on for years now. That's always the put down when an incident occurs to back up what people have been saying for ages - "oh, no need for knee-jerk reactions". Maybe this particular quali issue does not need addressing, but it's just one example of how the attitude of teams and drivers undermines good racing.

[BalanceUT]

Well, there wasn't enough track for everyone. Two slower cars basically blocked the Ferraris from passing them for several seconds, effectively holding up the entire field.

 

 

There's more than enough track for everyone.

I make a statement based upon actually observed evidence. You make mere assertion without evidence to support. 

[BalanceUT]

Formula e's qualifying method is good and would solve a lot of F1's problems without losing much of the excitement of F1's current qualifying method. 

In Formula e, the cars go out in groups of 5 or 6 based on current championship position, top ranked cars in first group, down to lowest ranked cars in last group. 6 cars with fastest times go out for 'super pole' to determine the top 6 races after all the groups. 

 

Track evolution means the lower ranked teams benefit most from the method, mixing the grid a bit. Fewer cars on track at any moment gets rid of some of the congestion that can ruin qualification for some, and might reduce the chances for shunts. Reduced likelihood of teammates both being in the last group might get rid of the absurd seeking of, and preventing, drafting. 

[shure]

Formula e's qualifying method is good and would solve a lot of F1's problems without losing much of the excitement of F1's current qualifying method. 

In Formula e, the cars go out in groups of 5 or 6 based on current championship position, top ranked cars in first group, down to lowest ranked cars in last group. 6 cars with fastest times go out for 'super pole' to determine the top 6 races after all the groups. 

 

Track evolution means the lower ranked teams benefit most from the method, mixing the grid a bit. Fewer cars on track at any moment gets rid of some of the congestion that can ruin qualification for some, and might reduce the chances for shunts. Reduced likelihood of teammates both being in the last group might get rid of the absurd seeking of, and preventing, drafting. 

It's good if you like adding lottery elements to the equation - more than once one group has experienced rain while another hasn't, for example - but less good if you don't.

 

There is nothing really wrong with the current system that it needs drastic change.  There are plenty of other issues in F1 that need addressing.  Qualifying isn't one of them