Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Kerb at the Parabolica needs to go - big crash in F3 [merged threads]


  • Please log in to reply
366 replies to this topic

#101 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 4,854 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 07 September 2019 - 09:57

Shocking crash indeed. That kerb was probably placed there for track limits?

Advertisement

#102 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,749 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 07 September 2019 - 09:57

Muppets at the FIA: when will you finally realize putting asphalt everywhere (and the inevitably sausage curbs) is not the way to go?

I'm pretty sure that specifically where that sausage curb is there hasn't been a worse crash than this.

This is shooting yourself in the foot.

#103 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 8,483 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 07 September 2019 - 09:57

Interestingly Verstappen says that that kerb is no problem for F1 cars, because they have more ground clearance than F2/F3, makes sense.

That's a very ill considered response.



#104 MinardiCrashDummy

MinardiCrashDummy
  • Member

  • 402 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 07 September 2019 - 09:59

All they have to do is assign a couple of people to watch Parabolica and hand out penalties for repeat offenders, it's not that hard the tarmac runoff is fine.



#105 Pimpwerx

Pimpwerx
  • Member

  • 1,943 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:00

That was indeed the fear raised over the last couple of years when the sausage kerb was first introduced. I always thought it was an irrational fear. Holy ****, that is ****ing brutal. Yeah...ditch the goddamn kerbs.



#106 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:01

That seemed a spectacularly bad place for a kerb. Right in the line of fire for any car coming off track extremely fast.

#107 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 35,192 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:01

At the back maybe, but the front of the tray sparks on the ground.

Hard to know for sure, but the way this F3 car went flying it would appear that it tore up the kerb, and then the kerb launched the car like a pole vault.

As I said, it’s hard to know from sure, but if that’s what happened then an F1 car could certainly do the same thing if the front dug in to the kerb.

Yeah, he meant the back
 

That's a very ill considered response.

To be fair he said that it's the right decision to remove the kerbs.



#108 steferrari

steferrari
  • Member

  • 1,209 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:01

Insane crash, I'm glad he's ok.  :eek:



#109 NoForumForOldPole

NoForumForOldPole
  • Member

  • 538 posts
  • Joined: July 18

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:02

Introduce asphalt run offs, then put kerbs on it so drivers don't abuse it  :well: 



#110 Pimpwerx

Pimpwerx
  • Member

  • 1,943 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:02

Muppets at the FIA: when will you finally realize putting asphalt everywhere (and the inevitably sausage curbs) is not the way to go?

I'm pretty sure that specifically where that sausage curb is there hasn't been a worse crash than this.

This is shooting yourself in the foot.

Asphalt is not the problem, and is far superior to grass and gravel in everything but aesthetics. The problem is the kerb. They can place sensors instead.



#111 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 4,641 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:04

Just seen it. Holy ****

#112 Laminar

Laminar
  • Member

  • 216 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:05

Way to go F1. Neuter a great corner for 'safety' and put in curbs that launch the cars into the fence.



#113 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 5,044 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:06

ah, some people already defending run offs..

 

* Why not install an army of stewards at each corner to see if cars run wide?

* Why not install a laser system around the track to detect running wide?

 

:drunk:

 

Any chance we can re-invent the wheel?  :lol:



#114 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 4,027 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:09

I’m really glad the Halo was there for this one. But really that car should never have ended up cockpit first into the barrier to begin with.

#115 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 12,301 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:09

Lucky escape for even more marshalls than I thought.

#116 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • Member

  • 21,576 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:12

That was indeed the fear raised over the last couple of years when the sausage kerb was first introduced. I always thought it was an irrational fear. Holy ****, that is ****ing brutal. Yeah...ditch the goddamn kerbs.

 

Yeah. Perhaps there are earlier examples, but Heidfeld's crash at the inaugural Formula E race was five years ago now. Imagine if the FIA had waited until 1999 to do anything in the wake of Senna's death.



#117 Anja

Anja
  • Member

  • 4,654 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:15

ah, some people already defending run offs..

 

* Why not install an army of stewards at each corner to see if cars run wide?

* Why not install a laser system around the track to detect running wide?

 

:drunk:

 

Any chance we can re-invent the wheel?  :lol:

 

Nothing says F1 quite like overly complicating everything for no good reason. 



#118 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 2,275 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:19

In both cases, recent F3 and in the Italian F4 incidents, the drivers chose to ignore track limits ON PURPOSE and ran over the curbing. The problem is the mentality of the drivers, not the track limits or their enforcement.

1960s armchair expert: "Well, if only they made sure they stayed on the track, they wouldn't have gone into the trees"...



#119 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 8,483 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:22

FIA are that bloody gormless that they're likely to bring back catch fencing.



Advertisement

#120 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 4,035 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:22

2010s armchair expert "Well, just allow them run wide and when they do start putting in side effect prone 'solutions' rather than tackle the real problem'

#121 Scotracer

Scotracer
  • RC Forum Host

  • 3,902 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:23

Same crash result at Macau a couple of years ago.

Gravel needs to return, even if it means more cars out of the race for seemingly minor mistakes.

#122 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 2,275 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:31

2010s armchair expert "Well, just allow them run wide and when they do start putting in side effect prone 'solutions' rather than tackle the real problem'

Absolutely, but the same obstacle could have launched a car that ended up in that runoff area through no fault of the driver.  We need stricter penalties for drivers failing to slow under yellow flags and running wide, but the runoffs have to be free of extra hazards should a car end up there as a result of the actions of another driver or car/tyre failure.


Edited by cpbell, 07 September 2019 - 10:31.


#123 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 10,436 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:32

Well, after Sophia's crash in Macau the FIA should know what sausage kerbs achieve combined with  high speed, a carbon copy of that accident.



#124 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 1,801 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:34

2nd week again....asphalt seem to be in question again... 



#125 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 6,246 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:34

What a genius whoever decided to put a speed bump at the exit of a high speed corner.

#126 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 3,378 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:38

100% that would have been fatal without the halo. I recall Marco Campos’ ‘95 accident at Magny Cours. There was no halo then.

#127 Francesc

Francesc
  • Member

  • 3,459 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:42

WTF

 

FIA are a bunch of clowns.



#128 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,508 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:43

That speed bump placed there was just so stupid. It completely undid all the benefit of the safety of the runoff. Glad he’s ok.

Speed bumps like that make sense in slow chicanes where nobody is going to go across them at high speeds. Places like Parabolica should just have better enforcement of track limits. I wonder if using a few of those polystyrene boards like at the first chicane would provide a better deterrent to drivers using that run-off? At least they don’t launch cars, puncture tyres or wreck suspension.

#129 jstrains

jstrains
  • Member

  • 2,873 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:46

Too many accidents... who is going to be the next one? :(

#130 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 16,317 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:50

What the ****. I don't want to be the arse that blames the driver, but what's he doing accelerating into that?? A daft decision that almost cost him his life.

We need to have a long hard think about what works best, because gravel isn't the solution neither and in many occasions causes cars to behave just like this - sommersaulting into the barriers.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of an automatic system that detects when a car has 4 wheels off track and cuts off a fair bit of engine power for a few seconds as punishment. There was a video-game which had this and it was the most annoying thing ever, also feels ridiculously convoluted and artificial but solves two things at once: certainly discourages drivers from racing beyond the track limits like this; and allows us to retain tarmac which is the safest runoff option, without then creating safety hazards to police it like death trap speed bumps.

#131 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 3,378 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:51

Too many accidents... who is going to be the next one? :(


The worry is that very little gets done when these accidents afflict the junior formulae. If (and this is purely hypothetical, please don’t for one minute think that I want this to happen) this happened to a top line driver in F1 in front of a larger TV audience then I think we would be seeing a lot more urgent action.

#132 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 16,317 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:52

That speed bump placed there was just so stupid. It completely undid all the benefit of the safety of the runoff. Glad he’s ok.

Speed bumps like that make sense in slow chicanes where nobody is going to go across them at high speeds. Places like Parabolica should just have better enforcement of track limits. I wonder if using a few of those polystyrene boards like at the first chicane would provide a better deterrent to drivers using that run-off? At least they don’t launch cars, puncture tyres or wreck suspension.


Well that's not a bad, low-tech solution neither... I was thinking about that too. Surely he wouldn't accelerate head-on into a white board like that? And if he did, well then he wouldn't have been launched into the barriers?

#133 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 18,346 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:54

Do they remove all of the grass and gravel from Parabolica for safety reasons to replace them with tarmac and random sausage kerbs! The FIA are an absolute embarrassment.

<sarcasm/>At least they added the HALO just in case tarmac/sausage kerb design would fail them.



#134 JHSingo

JHSingo
  • Member

  • 6,940 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:01

My word. That looked like it was a video game glitch or something. How he's not ended up with back injuries, I'll never know.



#135 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 16,317 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:06

<sarcasm/>At least they added the HALO just in case tarmac/sausage kerb design would fail them.


Their safety feature saved a life that would've been lost because of a safety hazard they installed to counterbalance a safety feature they installed.

#136 Ellios

Ellios
  • Member

  • 2,249 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:10

Really if you wanted to launch a car 30 feet into the air on a modern race track, this is the way to do it. 10/10 for effort ! 

 

:rolleyes:



#137 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 6,492 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:14

Was it a turtle kerb? Why?!!

#138 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,705 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:14

They don't need to do anything immediate about those runoffs except to bring in severe penalties for those who drive over them. That will cut the problem down immediately and without having to change anything. Do that and they then have the time to tackle the issues properly. Sausage kerbs are not the answer.



#139 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 19,371 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:14

Do they remove all of the grass and gravel from Parabolica for safety reasons to replace them with tarmac and random sausage kerbs! The FIA are an absolute embarrassment.

This just demonstrates how bizarre the F.I.A's decision making can be.  They specify flat kerbs throughout a circuit for safety reasons, even on the exit of very slow corners (e.g hairpins) where a car can never be launched, which causes track limit problems, yet introduce what was essentially a launch pad at a high speed section of track!



Advertisement

#140 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 19,371 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:20

Beyond the tracks edge, place a thin strip of grass 2.5 to 4 metres wide, followed by tarmac and if necessary gravel after that.



#141 F1 Mike

F1 Mike
  • Member

  • 687 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:25

Police stinger round the whole perimeter of the track, instant puncture. Bet they'd be more careful then!

#142 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 2,275 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:26

Beyond the tracks edge, place a thin strip of grass 2.5 to 4 metres wide, followed by tarmac and if necessary gravel after that.

Apparently, even a small amount of grass has caused cars to be rolled or launched with fatal results.  I suspect the only solution is to elimate all grass and gravel at all circuits and just have asphalt run-offs.  Trouble is, without enforcement, you'll get drivers using the run-offs as part of the circuit as happened the other year when US single-seaters had a round at COTA, hence a car rebounding even marginally from the tyre walls would be liable to be hit by others anyway.


Edited by cpbell, 07 September 2019 - 11:43.


#143 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 2,275 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:27

Police stinger round the whole perimeter of the track, instant puncture. Bet they'd be more careful then!

Blown tyres combined with asphalt run offs would be more dangerous - cars would skateboard across the run-offs and hit the walls at high speed.  You might as well advocate the laying of landmines.



#144 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 10,871 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:31

Here is the accident seen from another angle as well:



#145 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 1,752 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:32

What the ****. I don't want to be the arse that blames the driver, but what's he doing accelerating into that?? A daft decision that almost cost him his life.

We need to have a long hard think about what works best, because gravel isn't the solution neither and in many occasions causes cars to behave just like this - sommersaulting into the barriers.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of an automatic system that detects when a car has 4 wheels off track and cuts off a fair bit of engine power for a few seconds as punishment. There was a video-game which had this and it was the most annoying thing ever, also feels ridiculously convoluted and artificial but solves two things at once: certainly discourages drivers from racing beyond the track limits like this; and allows us to retain tarmac which is the safest runoff option, without then creating safety hazards to police it like death trap speed bumps.


That automatic system actually makes a ton of sense. It could be configured to cut say 10% of power for x amount of seconds (instead of 50% of the power for three seconds). Thereby, it would guarantee a significant loss of time without cauding dangerous differences in speed.

#146 Pete_f1

Pete_f1
  • Member

  • 1,494 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:32

Can we please now stop with tarmac run-offs and these idiotic sausage curbs?! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


Well said. The circuits themselves are a danger

#147 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 63,070 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:36

Here is the accident seen from another angle as well:

 

Okay, so maybe iRacing physics are more accurate than I thought...



#148 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 19,371 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:37

Apparently, even a small amount of grass has caused cars to be rolled or launched with fatal results.  I suspect the only solution is to elimate all grass and gravel at all circuits and just have asphalt run-offs.  Trouble is, without enforcement, you'll get drivers using the run-offs as part of the circuit as happened the other year when US single-seaters had a round at COTA, hence they'd be exiting a quick corner at high speed about a metre or so from a tyre barrier, which I doubt is safe either.

If the grass is well maintained, so without significant ruts, I think it should be okay.



#149 ConsiderAndGo

ConsiderAndGo
  • Member

  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:37

Okay, so maybe iRacing physics are more accurate than I thought...


No question the halo saved his life there. Wow those marshals are so lucky!

#150 Andy35

Andy35
  • Member

  • 4,801 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:38

I'm not one to downplay things..

 

BUT

 

This does seem like a one off, compared to new tracks where grids get sucked up etc.  It's not happened often at Monza. 

 

The result of this from watching on youtube etc with a car flying through the air similar to a Merc at Le Mans have to be tied down to the bigger picture.

 

The sad events of last weekend obviously give this incident more bias than before.

 

 

Andy

 

PS Note safety fencing above the barrier did a good job.