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Kerb at the Parabolica needs to go - big crash in F3 [merged threads]


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#301 Kalmake

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 14:48

If FIA had succeeded back in the day to regulate ride height, launching from kerbs wouldn't be such an issue. One argument against skirts was that kerbs could tear them off.



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#302 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:19

He is an idea I posted on the track limits thread several years ago.
 

Here is a suggestion.

Install pressure pads as used at MSVR tracks in the UK.
Clock up the number of offs for each driver in the race.

Allow a small number, say 2, of offs to allow for mistakes. Any off a driver does not re-join from is free, to avoid penalising breakdowns etc.

At the end of the race sort out any anomalies resulting from 'did he fall or was he pushed'

Each off over the allowed limit results in a 1 place grid penalty at the next race.

Also keep a tally of each drivers offs for the season and as with stewards penalties - go over a limit, say 30, in a 12 month period and it is a 1 race ban.

Has the following advantages

Does not interfere with the race or create danger by slowing cars.

Leaves room for discussion of contentious incidents - persuade the stewards you were forced off and you get the 'life' back.

Provides FOM with another bit of info to display, might even encourage more people to watch - follow the bad boys or the good boys.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 08 September 2019 - 15:21.


#303 cpbell

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 20:21

What you describe almost never happened in history to cause an injury or death so its very effective at protecting a driver from something that's almost never happened before in history. Awesome!

Just because you're not aware of such incidents doesn't mean that haven't occurred. :rolleyes:



#304 SophieB

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 07:51

FIA not planning to remove sausage kerbs from other circuits after Peroni crash
 

However FIA race director Michael Masi said the crash does not provide an immediate reason for removing sausage kerbs from all the circuits they are used at.
“I don’t think you can generalise in that regard at all to be quite honest,” said Masi. “It was a freak incident, I think is the best way to put it. If you look at it, it was exactly that.
“From our end we’ll continue looking at everything, various solutions, what they are and evolve when we find better things in other, different areas and different circumstances, different corners. Obviously there’s different profiles of corners, different speeds and everything.

 

“From my understanding I think that’s been there [at Monza for] at least two or three years. It’s one of those freak ones. We’ll look at them generally and go from there.”

 



#305 JeePee

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:07

He is an idea I posted on the track limits thread several years ago.
 

Not gonna work.

 

What if it's your last race?

Or for example: Max new he would start last in Monza at Spa already. Just shortcut the circuit, win the race, and no disadvantage the next race for him then?

 

Hamilton would have won Spa by shortcutting Eau Rouge in the last lap, overtaking Leclerc. I bet he would trade that win with a P3 start instead of a P2 the next race.



#306 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:29

It would not preclude other penalties such as can be applied already. 

 

If it helped reduced the no of 'routine' excursions then any such transgressions as you describe would stand out more and hence less easy for the race director/stewards to ignore them.

 

As for it being a drivers last race - for many ex F1 drivers their 'last race' only became apparent when they failed to get a seat for the following season.

 

It might also add a bit of spice to driver contract negotiations - as a team would you really want to sign up a driver who is already getting close to the 12 month limit.

It might even help persuade drivers to avoid track limits if they knew it might reduce their bargaining power for salary levels. 


Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 September 2019 - 08:40.


#307 Muppetmad

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:19

I was sad to hear of Whiting's passing, as it is never nice to hear of anybody's death, but I was not sad that somebody new would take the role of race director. Masi is making me nervous with remarks like this, though. This is the sort of vague, logic-defying non-answer which Whiting would have given.



#308 cpbell

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:59

If Masi thinks the crash in practice was such a statistically-unlikely event that he doesn't need to remove them anywhere else, despite the Macau crash of Floersch last year, presumably the only reason the one at Parabolica was removed was that it was damaged?


Edited by cpbell, 09 September 2019 - 11:00.


#309 ThisIsMischaW

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:01

rofl given some of the excessive safety measures the FIA puts in place to try and stop other freak accidents, seems a bit much they are all "hey, its only a freak accident, don't worry" about the utter stupidity of these sausage kerbs. 


Edited by ThisIsMischaW, 09 September 2019 - 11:02.


#310 absinthedude

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:11

I thought it was part of the FIA's mandate to think about all accidents, including freak ones, when figuring out kerbs, barriers, run-off design etc.



#311 cpbell

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:17

I thought it was part of the FIA's mandate to think about all accidents, including freak ones, when figuring out kerbs, barriers, run-off design etc.

Same here - perhaps we ought to point out to Signor Masi that pretty much the only fatal accidents these days, including the tragic F2 fatality at Spa, contain a degree of unlikely confluence of factors.



#312 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 13:48

A freak accident is only 'freak' until it happens again - it is just how narrow you make the criteria for deciding it was a freak.

 

Cars crash for a very limited no of reasons.

 

- Driver error.

 

- Over aggressive driving - though that may just be a subset of driver error

 

 - Mechanical failure.

 

Anyone got any other suggestions.



#313 SophieB

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 14:12

A freak accident is only 'freak' until it happens again - it is just how narrow you make the criteria for deciding it was a freak.

 

Cars crash for a very limited no of reasons.

 

- Driver error.

 

- Over aggressive driving - though that may just be a subset of driver error

 

 - Mechanical failure.

 

Anyone got any other suggestions.

 

Addition of external new hazard into the track. You can of course make the argument that this again is a subset of driver error in that they should be able to avoid it. However, I'm thinking of stuff like the drain cover at Monaco which could have been massively dangerous.



#314 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 15:27

You make an interesting point about problems like the drain covers at Monaco - although that is something that the FIA should have been aware of - after all they have known about the effect that hot slick tyres can have on drain covers since at least 1986, where we pointed the problem out to the FIA steward after the first F3000 practice session at the initial Birmingham Superprix..

 

I have always thought that senior officials should have to spend at least a couple of meeting out on the bank each season to see how things actually work - same thing for race drivers.

 

The fact that bolted down temporary speed bumps get pulled up and generate a hazard is not rocket science either - it is pretty obvious when you regularly see the slick tyres pulling the paint, not to mention great chucks of concrete, out of the kerbing, even at national level meetings.

 

I guess that most senior officials in the higher echelons of the sport hardly ever get out of the office.

 

 



#315 Risil

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 16:22

The FIA race director calls it a freak accident when a driver runs wide at the Parabolica and hits one of the ramps they installed a few meters off the edge of the track? Christ alive. That barely even qualifies as an unintended consequence.



#316 absinthedude

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 17:08

Those polystyrene boards (I'm not sure I'd describe them as blocks) are used all over, and many circuits use them as the brake markers. Hitting them at 200mph makes a spectacular explosion but it doesn't do much in the way of damage. The driver might have to pit to change a front wing or empty the intakes of polystyrene. They seem like a good idea.

 

Polystyrene boards as used in brake markers are OK. Polystyrene blocks have been used in the past and while I don't think they ever killed anyone they did lead to significant impacts, cuts, bruises and a ton of debris.

 

OK so we're talking about polystyrene boards...much more benign than the blocks - which themselves are OK in low speed situations. A board might deter a driver and provide an advertising hoarding. 



#317 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 17:17

Polystyrene boards as used in brake markers are OK. Polystyrene blocks have been used in the past and while I don't think they ever killed anyone they did lead to significant impacts, cuts, bruises and a ton of debris.

 

OK so we're talking about polystyrene boards...much more benign than the blocks - which themselves are OK in low speed situations. A board might deter a driver and provide an advertising hoarding. 

 

There's also the option that you could give a penalty to any driver who destroys them.



#318 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 17:19

Or maybe make them stop at the pits and glue all the bits together again.



#319 MKSixer

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 17:20

A freak accident is only 'freak' until it happens again - it is just how narrow you make the criteria for deciding it was a freak.

 

Cars crash for a very limited no of reasons.

 

- Driver error.

 

- Over aggressive driving - though that may just be a subset of driver error

 

 - Mechanical failure.

 

Anyone got any other suggestions.

Speed deltas.



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#320 genius83

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 17:34

I think FIA have forgotten that we already have at least 4 incidents because of these speed bumps.

1) GP3 Crash Spa (I think 2014)

2) Maria's F3 Crash Macau last season

3) Italian F4 Crash Last season

4) Now this F3 Crash.

 

This list clearly suggests that the latest crash should not been classified as freak accident.



#321 redreni

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 18:46

A freak accident is only 'freak' until it happens again - it is just how narrow you make the criteria for deciding it was a freak.

 

Cars crash for a very limited no of reasons.

 

- Driver error.

 

- Over aggressive driving - though that may just be a subset of driver error

 

 - Mechanical failure.

 

Anyone got any other suggestions.

 

Nelson Piquet Jnr?



#322 BobbyRicky

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 18:52

If every circuit is a street-circuit then you wouldnt need run-offs and wacky kerbs.

I say ''yes' to more barriers!



#323 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 19:05

Doesn't seem to deter them from trying abusing track limits at Baku - though most of them only manage to do it once over the weekend.



#324 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 21:36

Gravel trap in Denmark yesterday:

https://youtu.be/G_zvUiEeF2Q

#325 redreni

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 23:06

The FIA race director calls it a freak accident when a driver runs wide at the Parabolica and hits one of the ramps they installed a few meters off the edge of the track? Christ alive. That barely even qualifies as an unintended consequence.

 

That drivers who run wide will hit the sausage kerb was, explicitly, an intended consequence. It is the reason why the sausage kerbs were put there. It's only the size and seriousness of the accident that, one presumes, can't have been intended.



#326 Luca Pacchiarini

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 23:14

Gravel trap in Denmark yesterday:

https://youtu.be/G_zvUiEeF2Q


A TWO METRE LONG gravel trap... I don't think the surface is the issue there...

#327 Tsarwash

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 00:43

A TWO METRE LONG gravel trap... I don't think the surface is the issue there...

It looks more like a sand trap than a gravel; trap to me. I hope they were all alright, that looked horrible. 



#328 Myrvold

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:31

Gravel trap in Denmark yesterday:

https://youtu.be/G_zvUiEeF2Q

 

And the reason they didn't slow down at all was due to water on tarmac and slicks... Actually the ones that got tumbling got the energy spread more than it would've been with a straight hit.

 

It looks more like a sand trap than a gravel; trap to me. I hope they were all alright, that looked horrible. 

 

One got sent to hospital for checks, nothing major. He was back in the paddock the same evening :)



#329 ExFlagMan

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:33

A TWO METRE LONG gravel trap... I don't think the surface is the issue there...

 

That would make a DS3 less than 1 m long, seeing as there was room for them to be stacked several deep with still room for more.

 

Either that or they were 1/4 scale models.

 

From experience of both sand and gravel traps, I would suggest that if that was sand you would not have seen much from the camera on the bank as the lens would be covered in the stuff.

 

Either way, sand or gravel, or any of the other aggregate types that have been tried for the job, all suffer from the same problem.

 

One of the later cars to go in - the black and orange/red one, showed the main problem with gravel traps, it went in sideways and started to roll and fly as soon as it hit the edge of the gravel.

 

Not sure that a rolling car, even if it is going slightly slower, is that much more preferable to one going in straight - the driver of the rolling car has less chance of bracing themselves against the impact(s).

 

Other problems that have occurred with saloon  cars rolling is that the driver tries to brace themselves by grabbing the roll cage - I recall at least one occasion where their fingers where then trapped between the roll cage and the roof panel as it was pushed in. 


Edited by ExFlagMan, 10 September 2019 - 08:08.


#330 cpbell

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 16:59

That drivers who run wide will hit the sausage kerb was, explicitly, an intended consequence. It is the reason why the sausage kerbs were put there. It's only the size and seriousness of the accident that, one presumes, can't have been intended.

It hardly takes a genius to work out that a car hitting one of those things at high speed will be launched, particularly as we've already seen the same scenario with Sophia Floersch at Macau.  If someone drives their road car at a pedestrian at 60 mph and kills them, they cannot argue that they only intended to leave them bruised and sore.


Edited by cpbell, 10 September 2019 - 17:01.


#331 cpbell

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 17:01

Regarding the crash in Denmark, do we not think that an F1 car will be much less likely to roll when entering gravel than a small hatchback owing to its length and width being greater and centre of mass being much lower?


Edited by cpbell, 10 September 2019 - 19:10.


#332 ceesvdelst

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 17:13

Thing is, there is a precedent for this, anyone remember Rockingham in the UK with F3 cars early 00's? There was a very similar accident there.

 

And I am sure I have seen this type of incident before.

What concerned me was the sheer air that thing got, and the fact the cockpit landed on the tyre wall, no HALO meant a potential compressed neck/spine. 



#333 Luca Pacchiarini

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 17:16

That must have been Katherine Legge at the first Rockingham chicane..but if I remember correctly she took off on the "traditional" inside kerb

#334 Clatter

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 20:28

What you describe almost never happened in history to cause an injury or death so its very effective at protecting a driver from something that's almost never happened before in history. Awesome!

 


By "almost never" you do agree it has happened, and that the halo could help save a driver in those circumstances? The idea is to learn from all incidents.

#335 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 21:25

Gravel trap in Denmark yesterday:

https://youtu.be/G_zvUiEeF2Q

i'd say it's more important to notice the tarmac before the gravel trap were they seem to not be able to scrub off close to any speed at all...


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 10 September 2019 - 21:25.


#336 baddog

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 06:00

We worked out that that doesn't work for single seaters at the 1996 Italian Grand Prix.

 

 

 

 

 

Looked fine to me ;)

pURDyub.jpg



#337 ExFlagMan

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:05

i'd say it's more important to notice the tarmac before the gravel trap were they seem to not be able to scrub off close to any speed at all...

 

Ah - the bit they call the race track - I notice that non of them fell over whilst they were locked up and sliding on that, even when going sideways.

 

Before anyone jumps up and down on their keyboards - I am not saying that a tarmac run-off would have slowed them down and the majority would not have ended up in the fence anyway - but what I am sure of is that getting the drivers out and the car recovery job tends to be much easier when the cars are all the right way up and not stacked one on top of another.

 

In that sort of situation of what looked like a sudden downpour, I doubt that there is anything you can about it apart from hoping that everyone gets out OK.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 11 September 2019 - 09:51.


#338 ANF

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:42


"Full" race video from Jyllandsringen.
07:50 Race start
14:41 Pictures of very heavy rain
16:32 Pictures of the top three in the wall
16:47 Red flag

#339 Retrofly

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:39

If they put the grass/gravel back they wouldn't need giant kerbs on the outside of corners.

 

Put grass/gravel back and make going off circuit and losing traction the reason for not sticking between the lines.



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#340 absinthedude

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 19:37

Addition of external new hazard into the track. You can of course make the argument that this again is a subset of driver error in that they should be able to avoid it. However, I'm thinking of stuff like the drain cover at Monaco which could have been massively dangerous.

 

Animals running across the track, birds flying into a car/helmet, lunatic priest runs across the track....you've got to consider the freak accident where something unpredictable happens to a car which would otherwise be under control at 190mph down a straight or on a gentle curve. You've got to think "That part of the track isn't difficult, it's highly impossible that two cars will collide there....but what if a tyre explodes or a dog runs across the track?"



#341 ExFlagMan

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 19:55

If you took that attitude then you would not allow any racing at all. - because there is no way that you can mitigate against that type of scenario.



#342 SophieB

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 06:54

After his enormous airborne FIA Formula 3 crash at Monza, Alex Peroni has been released from hospital and doesn't require surgery, but will miss the finale of the championship in Sochi

https://t.co/i7h8c4Vpda



#343 absinthedude

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:07

If you took that attitude then you would not allow any racing at all. - because there is no way that you can mitigate against that type of scenario.

 

If you're replying to my post...I believe you can. It's not so difficult to imagine a piece of track which isn't especially tricky, such as a straight leading to a hairpin...and say to yourself "what if a tyre burst or a brake failed 100m from the corner?" Indeed that's kind of why we have run off in the first place....not just at corners like Parabolica which is tricky and requires much skill to get right....but at less technical corners and even gentle curves. Because someone thought "what if?". It also applies to marhsal posts and protecting of marshals/spectators/officials. "What if a car went off at 190mph right there where that marshals post is?"

 

There will always be scenarios nobody thought of...but it is worth *trying*.

 

Regarding Peroni being released from hospital, good news. I understand he's on strict 30 days total rest but will be fine to race in 2020.



#344 7MGTEsup

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:28

If Masi thinks the crash in practice was such a statistically-unlikely event that he doesn't need to remove them anywhere else, despite the Macau crash of Floersch last year, presumably the only reason the one at Parabolica was removed was that it was damaged?

 

I thought Floersch's car got airborne as a result of riding up over the car at the apex of the corner?



#345 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:34

Gravel trap in Denmark yesterday:

https://youtu.be/G_zvUiEeF2Q

 

 

i'd say it's more important to notice the tarmac before the gravel trap were they seem to not be able to scrub off close to any speed at all...

 

This. At around the 30s mark, the no10 car just slides until it reached the sand trap where it immediatly dug in and stopped. The wet tarmac past the corner did nothing to scrub speed or give the cars any control. Was there oil in that corner?



#346 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:40

Looked fine to me ;)
pURDyub.jpg


Well they certainly punished mistakes.

#347 Myrvold

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 12:19

This. At around the 30s mark, the no10 car just slides until it reached the sand trap where it immediatly dug in and stopped. The wet tarmac past the corner did nothing to scrub speed or give the cars any control. Was there oil in that corner?


Just water. And pure slicks.

#348 thiscocks

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 13:46

What was the original reasoning by the track officials/fia for switching most of the parabolic runoff to tarmac?

Good question. No reason at all other than the weird belief that sandtraps are somehow dangerous. There have been no serious incidents at the Parabollica for years so yeah lets totally change the run off... Utter cretins with nothing better to do basically. 



#349 thiscocks

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 13:50

i'd say it's more important to notice the tarmac before the gravel trap were they seem to not be able to scrub off close to any speed at all...

If that was all tarmac runoff they would have all piled into the barrier even harder...



#350 uzsjgb

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:22

There have been no serious incidents at the Parabollica for years so yeah lets totally change the run off...

 

Preferably you make a track safer before an incident instead of after one.