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Leclerc - Hamilton, Monza 2019 [split]


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#51 Baddoer

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:30

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.

Now that a Ferrari driver is defending his place hard, Hamilton and Mercedes fans are crying. Even a moderator said Leclerc cheated today.

The only cheat I saw this weekend is a Mercedes driver doing a quali lap under a red flag condition..

" But but but Ferrari International Assistance at Monza "

Agreed. Refusal stage going on - most stubborn Hamilton fans not accepting the defeat of how supposedly best driver in best car has been beaten by younger talent. 

When Mercedes wins I simply turn TV off, walk away and do some useful stuff like clean the room or pet the cat instead of crapposting on the forums.

Here is the message - get a life.


Edited by Baddoer, 08 September 2019 - 15:30.


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#52 Myrvold

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:32

The stewards have shown a new level of incompetence this weekend - it's getting worse, not better. The black and white flag coming back feels like a change Masi made just to assert he's now in the top position. There's a reason Charlie never used it, because it encourages leniency. One stewarding team at all races with someone who doesn't give a crap about the state of the sport (i.e. pissing off fans)

Black and white flag is awesome. It is a very good tool if used properly. When you have something that isn't strictly illegal, but it is very much on the limit, the warning-flag should be used. However, that should automatically mean that the next time the warned driver does anything over the limit, regardless of what it is a penalty.



#53 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:33

Maybe we just don't like dirty driving.  Even ignoring the danger part of it, dirty driving hurts racing.  If you can't put your car side by side without the driver in front having the license to drive you off the road, because "you're taking your racing line" you see so nothing else matters, then you won't be able to overtake anywhere except on the straight with DRS.



#54 Tsarwash

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:33

I didn't see a decent replay, but didn't Sainz do it to Albon on the Parabolica ?



#55 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:34

Black and white flag is awesome. It is a very good tool if used properly. When you have something that isn't strictly illegal, but it is very much on the limit, the warning-flag should be used. However, that should automatically mean that the next time the warned driver does anything over the limit, regardless of what it is a penalty.

It may be awesome in theory, but only if you're actually willing to follow up on it.  If it's one black and white flag and then back to "we can't change the race result even if the penalty is deserved", then it's worse than useless.



#56 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:35

Hamilton will inevitably be the first driver they penalise once they start cracking down on this. :stoned:

#57 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:36

Maybe we just don't like dirty driving. Even ignoring the danger part of it, dirty driving hurts racing. If you can't put your car side by side without the driver in front having the license to drive you off the road, because "you're taking your racing line" you see so nothing else matters, then you won't be able to overtake anywhere except on the straight with DRS.



Ok so I hope for the sake of consistency that you were against the decision made at Austria to not penalise Verstappen. Because it was the same thing, not leaving other car any space.

#58 Scotracer

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:36

Hard but that's racing. 

 

It's complaints like these that brought about the over-zealous moderating in prior years.



#59 Jordan44

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:36

Maybe we just don't like dirty driving.  Even ignoring the danger part of it, dirty driving hurts racing.  If you can't put your car side by side without the driver in front having the license to drive you off the road, because "you're taking your racing line" you see so nothing else matters, then you won't be able to overtake anywhere except on the straight with DRS.

 

It's either against the rules or it isn't and that is meant to be black and white. Black and white flag is a cop out for "Don't really want to penalise but should" or "Can't be bothered to look into it because it's not clear cut".


Edited by Jordan44, 08 September 2019 - 15:36.


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#60 Tsarwash

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:36

Leclerc did to Hamilton what Verstappen did to him in Austria, not leaving him space. You can't blame Leclerc at Austria and then blame him today.

I think what Max did in Austria was wrong. I think that what Leclerc did to day was also wrong. Not as bad possibly but still not conducive towards cars being able to overtake in the future. 



#61 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:37

I didn't see a decent replay, but didn't Sainz do it to Albon on the Parabolica ?



It was at Lesmo, but honestly I thought Albon was wrong because it's impossible to overtake on the outside at Lesmo. The track is too narrow for that

#62 geralt

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:37

The move under braking was more suspect tbh



#63 Tsarwash

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:37

My removed post again:

 

Please delete this pathetic thread which was made with the only purpose to diminish an epic victory by Charels. Even Lewis said there was nothing creepy, but you fanboys just don't seem to be able to exercise a perfect opportunity to shut up.

 

If your post was removed by a moderator then it was probably for a reason, and reposting it is just a silly idea. 



#64 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:37

As a racing fan and neutral I enjoyed the battle even if it was tough in opinion of supporters of one or other driver involved. Great racing. I hope for more.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 08 September 2019 - 15:38.


#65 SophieB

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:38

Black and white flag is awesome. It is a very good tool if used properly. When you have something that isn't strictly illegal, but it is very much on the limit, the warning-flag should be used. However, that should automatically mean that the next time the warned driver does anything over the limit, regardless of what it is a penalty.

 

The problem is, as in football, it almost gives permission to cynically commit one really bad foul. Except this is a sport where we've just had some very recent, very grim reminders of how dangerous this sport can be. I cannot be happy that not  only are the sport failing to crack down on cynical moves but they are basically allowing you one freebie.



#66 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:39

I think what Max did in Austria was wrong. I think that what Leclerc did to day was also wrong. Not as bad possibly but still not conducive towards cars being able to overtake in the future.



I'm agree with you . And it's nice to see someone with consistency. I don't like the fact that drivers are allowed to not leave any space for other cars. It's plain wrong.

But, after Austria, this is the new rule, close the space like you want, that why I'm saying Leclerc dis nothing wrong .

This kid is brilliant he is learning really fast.

#67 Kershy

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:40

Cant remember whether it was F2 or F3 but im pretty sure a driver got penalized for cutting the first chicane exactly like Charles did.



#68 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:40

Ok so I hope for the sake of consistency that you were against the decision made at Austria to not penalise Verstappen. Because it was the same thing, not leaving other car any space.

I did think Verstappen was in the wrong there.



#69 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:41

I feel like Leclerc's jink in the middle of Curva Grande was missed in the chaos of Leclerc skipping the chicane.

It was missed in the live broadcast and only shown on one replay.

If it happened completely separately to skipping the chicane, I think action would've been taken.

Edited by TomNokoe, 08 September 2019 - 15:42.


#70 Retrofly

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:43

Stewards confirming that "let them race" is an official policy when making decisions on penalties. There we go, nice and clear.

 

Stewards "Things have changed".

 

They say this is down to what has been asked for by the teams, drivers and FIA themselves.

Gloves are off, I just hope it doesn't end badly. You know, safety and all.


Edited by Retrofly, 08 September 2019 - 15:44.


#71 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:43

Why is it epic?

 

Ferrari is rocket ship in a straight line today was only ever going to end with a Ferrari victory

 

Right, very straightforward win in a dominant car, anyone could have done it, nothing special about it.

 

/s

 

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:



#72 Marklar

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:44

So Masi says the difference between Bottas/Max and this is that they didnt made contact. Not sure if that is a good approach to this, getting awarded for not avoiding the contact?

#73 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:45

So Masi says the difference between Bottas/Max and this is that they didnt made contact. Not sure if that is a good approach to this, getting awarded for not avoiding the contact?


Really bizarre explanation. You aren't exaggerating. He literally said contact = penalty.

#74 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:45

I feel like Leclerc's jink in the middle of Curva Grande was missed in the chaos of Leclerc skipping the chicane.

It was missed in the live broadcast and only shown on one replay.

If it happened completely separately to skipping the chicane, I think action would've been taken.

Yup, that was the worst move I think. One day a car will be sent airborne by such a move, and everyone will act shocked.

#75 l12mcg

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:45

So they’ve just had an interview with the FIA on sky, basically if they had had contact then it would have been a penalty for LeClerc. So there we have it, the drive on the outside won’t jump off the track now, little wheel to wheel tap.

They also said the drivers get one black and white flag a race - so they are allowed to push someone off the track hard once.

Not sure I like that, if the person behind is coming in very fast, it’s the last lap, you run them out of road and win the race.

It’s going to happen, and it’s going to cause a mess... We’ll see.

#76 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:45

As the race direction explains on Sky, when the disadvantaged driver prevents a crash by preventing contact, no further action.
Lewis should have moved a bit less and won the race.



#77 Retrofly

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:45

So Masi says the difference between Bottas/Max and this is that they didnt made contact. Not sure if that is a good approach to this, getting awarded for not avoiding the contact?

This will totally end in a massive accident. Mark my words.



#78 SophieB

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:45

After what happened in Austria, Leclerc did nothing wrong IMHO.

Everybody wants what happened in Silverstone or today, some ( Horner and others) were speaking about wheel banging.

There we go now..

Leclerc did to Hamilton what Verstappen did to him in Austria, not leaving him space. You can't blame Leclerc at Austria and then blame him today.

 

I can definitely see that point of view and agree that the failure to get to grips with poor driving is the true problem, which I presume you are also against, if this is your response to the Verstappen non penalty. However, ultimately I would argue the drivers still carry *some* personal responsibility for their own actions too even if I agree with your implicit point that this is going to be how it is now, which is why I'm so cross.



#79 SophieB

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:47

Really bizarre explanation. You aren't exaggerating. He literally said contact = penalty.

 

This is the kind of knots people tie themselves up in when the true reason is "we don't really want to give out penalties to top drivers"



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#80 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:48

So they’ve just had an interview with the FIA on sky, basically if they had had contact then it would have been a penalty for LeClerc. So there we have it, the drive on the outside won’t jump off the track now, little wheel to wheel tap.

They also said the drivers get one black and white flag a race - so they are allowed to push someone off the track hard once.

Not sure I like that, if the person behind is coming in very fast, it’s the last lap, you run them out of road and win the race.

It’s going to happen, and it’s going to cause a mess... We’ll see.



It's just ridiculous. It's make no sense. But common sense will prevail when we will have a driver seriously injured as always in F1.

#81 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:48

So Masi says the difference between Bottas/Max and this is that they didnt made contact. Not sure if that is a good approach to this, getting awarded for not avoiding the contact?

It's become a game of chicken. Hamilton blinked and lost.



#82 Joshrobins13

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:50

Hard racing? I call it clumsy racing.



#83 timmy bolt

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:51

People call this new era "hard racing". I call it the death of race craft. You don't have to be good at defending any more, you just have to know when to push someone off at the critical time. It makes the drs zones more important, not less.

I remember watching I think it was Vettel years ago at Spa defending at the hairpin, he would break slightly early and take a different line taking all the momentum out of the attacking car, it was imoressive. Now, no need, just shut them down as soon as they start to edge along side. It s a shame really. A lot of people don't seem to realise it kills racing as it inevitably puts the attacking driver out of contention for several laps whilst they get back up to speed.

The max Leclerc incident earlier in the year was the same, how much better would that race have been had leclerc got out of that corner still in contention and was able to contest for that bit longer. But people cheered hard racing, all I saw was the premature end of a great battle.

#84 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:51

Let’s be honest, if he wasn’t driving a Ferrari at Monza he’d have been sanctioned.. possibly twice, definately if he was in the championship fight..

But Even though I’m a mclaren fan first, and a Lewis fan second.. I can’t deny I like Charles a lot, impossible not to like the guy..

I’m pleased there was no pen and happy that he won.. overall he deserves it

#85 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:51

Stewards confirming that "let them race" is an official policy when making decisions on penalties. There we go, nice and clear.

 

Stewards "Things have changed".

 

They say this is down to what has been asked for by the teams, drivers and FIA themselves.

Gloves are off, I just hope it doesn't end badly. You know, safety and all.

giphy.gif



#86 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:52

I can definitely see that point of view and agree that the failure to get to grips with poor driving is the true problem, which I presume you are also against, if this is your response to the Verstappen non penalty. However, ultimately I would argue the drivers still carry *some* personal responsibility for their own actions too even if I agree with your implicit point that this is going to be how it is now, which is why I'm so cross.




Yeah I don't like when driver don't leave other any space. For me that's not racing, it's like me 10 years ago, playing GP4 on the PC and zigzagging when a IA driver was coming to overtake.

If I was in charge of this sport, any time a driver don't leave any space to another one, like Verstappen at Austria, or Magnussen all the time, it's an automatic black flag. It's just killing the sport these kind of behaviour.

With a black flag all these drivers would learn real quick.

#87 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:53

It's become a game of chicken. Hamilton blinked and lost.


Nope, Lewis avoided the chance of a DNF for both drivers and thus left with a 63 point WDC lead.

Edited by robefc, 08 September 2019 - 15:54.


#88 Risil

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:54

giphy.gif

 

I was in an iRacing split with the guy who played Worf once. I would pass it off as oh he just has the same name but over the microphone he did have a really deep voice.



#89 SCUDmissile

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:56

Hamilton will inevitably be the first driver they penalise once they start cracking down on this. :stoned:

He has literally done this to Rosberg many times and got away with it :lol:

They all have. No point blaming the drivers anymore since they're all doing it.

Blame the people that teach them it's ok and blame the ones meant to encourage safe racing.

Stewards now encouraging drivers to play chicken and look for contact if being forced off. This will end well :rotfl: Fair and high quality racing in F1 is doomed

Edited by SCUDmissile, 08 September 2019 - 15:58.


#90 Radoye

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:58

This is the new normal regarding driving standards in F1, start getting used to it. Video-game generation who think they're indestructible and that actions have no consequences. Just press Restart and go again. :down:



#91 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:58

I was in an iRacing split with the guy who played Worf once. I would pass it off as oh he just has the same name but over the microphone he did have a really deep voice.

Wow that's really cool... :cool:



#92 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:01

I suggest to you to watch Raikkonen against Hamilton at Austin last year again and again to see a perfect defence because we will not see these kind of defense any time soon. Or Schumacher at Monza 2011 against Hamilton

#93 Fatgadget

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:03

This is just noise.

 

All Mercedes has to do is maintain what they are doing. After all their primary objective is to bag both the WDC and the WCC. And they are on course by a huge margin  accomplishing  just that.



#94 OO7

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:03

I was in an iRacing split with the guy who played Worf once. I would pass it off as oh he just has the same name but over the microphone he did have a really deep voice.

Michael Dorn I think his name is.  I believe he also owns and flies a P-51D Mustang or North American F-86 Sabre, so props to the guy.



#95 Requiem84

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:04

So in 2018 Verstappen gets a penalty because Bottas isn’t capable to avoid contact and Leclerc gets a free pass because he’s racing Lewis who actually has the ability wheel to wheel to avoid contact.

Ergo: the penalty is decided by the driver who is being pushed off?

That is some bizarre reasoning.

#96 Risil

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:06

Michael Dorn I think his name is. I believe he also owns and flies a P-51D Mustang or North American F-86 Sabre, so props to the guy.


PROPS indeed

#97 beute

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:06

Leclerc was rather clean before Austria happened.

Cliché/platitude screamers got their way, stewards lost the plot and the decision in Austria basically means "anything goes if you can call it hard racing"

You could instantly see Charles changing his attitude next race in Silverstone, and he adopted the verstappen kind of "racing" as some call it..

#98 ANF

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:07

So Masi says the difference between Bottas/Max and this is that they didnt made contact. Not sure if that is a good approach to this, getting awarded for not avoiding the contact?

Really bizarre explanation. You aren't exaggerating. He literally said contact = penalty.

This ain't Supercars, mate.

#99 Risil

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:09

So in 2018 Verstappen gets a penalty because Bottas isn’t capable to avoid contact and Leclerc gets a free pass because he’s racing Lewis who actually has the ability wheel to wheel to avoid contact.

Ergo: the penalty is decided by the driver who is being pushed off?

That is some bizarre reasoning.

Strange choice of examples, given that by Leclerc's account it was the FIA declining to penalize Verstappen in Austria that led to his change in approach.

Not that I'm blaming Max for this -- the FIA lost its nerve after Montreal this year and now seems to be nodding through all manner of dodgy moves.

They say you reap what you sow but it normally takes a little longer to be trapped by your own poor decisions: this is like me planting some mint in May because I wanted to make fancy cocktails and now it's overwhelmed everything else in my borders.

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#100 SophieB

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:10

I suggest to you to watch Raikkonen against Hamilton at Austin last year again and again to see a perfect defence because we will not see these kind of defense any time soon. Or Schumacher at Monza 2011 against Hamilton

 

Well, hilarious as Monza 2011 was, didn't Ross Brawn have to descend to the pitwall to tell him to eventually knock it off?

No driver is ever perfect but to me Kimi is basically the gold standard of overtaking/defending in terms of fairness