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Leclerc - Hamilton, Monza 2019 [split]


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#101 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:11

You only need to watch Hamilton vs Kimi from last year for fair racing.

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#102 Yoshi

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:12

We can say thanks to Austria case from this year :)

#103 ArchieTech

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:14

I wonder about that black & white flag generally. If its purpose is to say "that was too much, don't do it again or you will get a penalty" then are we simply going to see drivers calculating that they now get one black & white flag before any punishments are considered, so they use that one opportunity tactically per race?



#104 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:14

Well, hilarious as Monza 2011 was, didn't Ross Brawn have to descend to the pitwall to tell him to eventually knock it off?
No driver is ever perfect but to me Kimi is basically the gold standard of overtaking/defending in terms of fairness



Yeah because Hamilton and McLaren was complaining everylap. But Schumacher did nothing wrong that day. It was epic defense, Hamilton should have take note

#105 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:14

People call this new era "hard racing". I call it the death of race craft. You don't have to be good at defending any more, you just have to know when to push someone off at the critical time. It makes the drs zones more important, not less.

I remember watching I think it was Vettel years ago at Spa defending at the hairpin, he would break slightly early and take a different line taking all the momentum out of the attacking car, it was imoressive. Now, no need, just shut them down as soon as they start to edge along side. It s a shame really. A lot of people don't seem to realise it kills racing as it inevitably puts the attacking driver out of contention for several laps whilst they get back up to speed.

:up: So much this. Makes me sad that the standards are dropping so fast and will likely be gone for good, because success and lenient stewarding will reward those doing it.

#106 Heyli

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:17

Dont understand why people keep pointing at Austria. Big difference between Corner Entry (in the breaking zone) and Corner exit. Running people out of road at corner exit has been a practise for a much longer time than Austria and I personally dont recall when that was penalized last.



#107 Requiem84

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:18

Strange choice of examples, given that by Leclerc's account it was the FIA declining to penalize Verstappen in Austria that led to his change in approach.

Not that I'm blaming Max for this -- the FIA lost its nerve after Montreal this year and now seems to be nodding through all manner of dodgy moves.

They say you reap what you sow but it normally takes a little longer to be trapped by your own poor decisions: this is like me planting some mint in May because I wanted to make fancy cocktails and now it's overwhelmed everything else in my borders.


The comparison should be Bottas-Verstappen in Monza and Leclerc-Hamilton in Monza.

Let’s not compare an incident on the exit of a corner to an incident at the entry/braking zone.

I know you are knowledgeable enough to see this is a big difference.

#108 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:19

Austria has allowed for this.

It’s on the limit. Hard, but okay.

#109 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:22

Dont understand why people keep pointing at Austria. Big difference between Corner Entry (in the breaking zone) and Corner exit. Running people out of road at corner exit has been a practise for a much longer time than Austria and I personally dont recall when that was penalized last.



So because it was not penalize before it's ok ?

Running people off the road destroy racing, at corner entry or at the exit.

We want to see fight, not drivers pushing another drivers. It's not stock cars..

If you can't defend without pushing a driver off track it's better you leave the steering wheel to another driver IMO..


Running people off track is the death of the sport, it's not a fight. It's not because you try to overtake on the inside that you own all width of the track and can decide if the other driver have the right or not to be here.

Austria decision was one of the dumbest made these past years.

#110 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:24

Running people out of road on the exit of the corner was not suddenly made acceptable in Austria.

#111 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:24

So, what was different between Verstappen-Bottas and the Leclerc-Hamilton incident this year?

Hows that salt taste? ;)

This was right on the edge but, as the FIA have said, they've revised things and want to 'let them race'. We saw that in Austria where there was actually contact. Here there wasn't.

Let it roll I say!

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 08 September 2019 - 17:07.


#112 Risil

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:24

The comparison should be Bottas-Verstappen in Monza and Leclerc-Hamilton in Monza.

Let’s not compare an incident on the exit of a corner to an incident at the entry/braking zone.

I know you are knowledgeable enough to see this is a big difference.

You give me too much credit! But yeah, I see that the two incidents at Monza were technically more alike (not that I've seen the Leclerc one yet, thanks Bernie!). But the stewards appear to have been operating to different standards since Montreal, and certainly Charles Leclerc believes that.

It's weird because no rules have changed, so it's not like all the weird handball decisions we've had in soccer lately that have at least come after a change to the laws of the game.

But the stewards certainly seem to be letting this stuff go more, and I'm pretty sure it's deliberate.

But what's the saying they use in jurisprudence? Hard cases make bad law. If the FIA are going to change course whenever they get in trouble on Facebook when the stewards apply the rules, they'll end up with decisions that can neither be understood nor defended.

#113 Requiem84

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:25

Running people out of road on the exit of the corner was not suddenly made acceptable in Austria.


Exactly, it has been happening for years before Austria.

Some people keep on shifting goal posts and comparing different types of incidents. This saddens me on a forum with knowledgeable people.

#114 lewislorenzo

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:27

I’m sure there was a similar incident in the GP2 race yesterday involving zhou and lafiti I think it was

#115 Counterbalance

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:28

Yeah because Hamilton and McLaren was complaining everylap. But Schumacher did nothing wrong that day. It was epic defense, Hamilton should have take note


Hamilton really disturbs you, doesn't he?

If LeClerc had pulled those moves driving anywhere else than Monza in Ferrari, he would have received a penalty. It was like someone had put Max Mosley back in charge of the FIA for the day. A proper nostalgia trip.

At the end of the day though, if these are the new standards then so be it. Let's hope the FIA stewards remain consistent.

A good race, nonetheless.

#116 NoDivergence

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:29

Pushing people off/squeezing on corner entry is not ok. Should have been penalized. I much prefer Kimi's/Hamilton's clean racing than Schumi/Senna "hard racing". Takes more skill, improves the show as the fight lasts longer and is harder rather than a one and and done move

#117 SCUDmissile

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:31

Running people out of road on the exit of the corner was not suddenly made acceptable in Austria.

Austria was not the turning point, but it did further underline the decline of racing standards.

Running people off the road has been done iirc since 2012. The first example I can think of is the Rosberg Alonso 'alla tha time you have to leava tha space' incident.

And it has barely ever been penalised if it doesn't lead to contact. As it was today.

It was just that this time the victim was the driver with the most vocal fans. (Who is not innocent of this either, you all would be wise to remember).

Maybe because of this something will change. I hope so.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 08 September 2019 - 16:36.


#118 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:33

Austria was not the turning point, but it did further underline the decline of racing standards.

This.

By letting that go, they've really opened a can of worms. And the smart drivers are gonna really exploit it now. Charles did exactly that today, went right to the limit without making contact. Play on.

I'd love to hear Christian Horners take on it. He was adamant in Austria that 'we are here to race, come on...'

#119 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:34

Austria was not the turning point, but it did further underline the decline of racing standards.
Running people off the road has been done iirc since 2012. The first example I can think of is the Rosberg Alonso 'alla tha time you have to leava tha space' incident.
And it has barely ever been penalised if it doesn't lead to contact. As it was today.


Lewis was running Massa off in Germany 2008 and I dare say it was going on for years or decades before that.

This decline in racing standards has no basis that I can see.

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#120 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:36

I don't get the outrage. Leclerc made one iffy move which he received the warning flag for, and then didn't repeat it. Lesson learned, job done.



#121 CoolBreeze

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:36

What are some of you thinking? For him to roll the red carpet and invite Hamilton over?

 

This is racing at the top level. Friggin get over it, 



#122 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:38

Hamilton really disturbs you, doesn't he?

If LeClerc had pulled those moves driving anywhere else than Monza in Ferrari, he would have received a penalty. It was like someone had put Max Mosley back in charge of the FIA for the day. A proper nostalgia trip.

At the end of the day though, if these are the new standards then so be it. Let's hope the FIA stewards remain consistent.

A good race, nonetheless.




No I like him and I would love him to go in Ferrari, he is the perfect Ferrari driver.

But yes I was crying like never in the radio that race, but now he is not the same than in 2011 and it's a good thing.

#123 ArchieTech

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:39

I don't get the outrage. Leclerc made one iffy move which he received the warning flag for, and then didn't repeat it. Lesson learned, job done.

He'd gained the advantage from the move by that time though. If it's not okay a second time, why is it tolerated the first time? It's either okay or it's not, surely?



#124 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:40

I don't get the outrage. Leclerc made one iffy move which he received the warning flag for, and then didn't repeat it. Lesson learned, job done.


There were two, not worthy of outrage but fair enough for discussion.

Plus also the chicane skip but, as a fan of the driver behind, that’s just one of those really annoying things where the other guy gets away with it at least once.

I think the same applies to the other moves too actually hence also very annoying!

The trouble with the let them race philosophy is overtaking opportunities are so rare quite often one ‘iffy’ move will guarantee the car in front stays ahead for good - Canada would have been a good example if Vettel hadn’t been penalised.

#125 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:42

He'd gained the advantage from the move by that time though. If it's not okay a second time, why is it tolerated the first time? It's either okay or it's not, surely?

 

I don't think it was a big enough transgression to warrant a penalty. That's what the warning flag exists for.



#126 MKSixer

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:43

There was no way the lead Ferrari, leading Monza in front of the charging current and future World Driving Champion was going to get a penalty.  Stop the speculation.  The FIA of old has returned.  The BS reason they gave for not deleting VETs lap was the clarion call for this.  Jean Marie Balestre is smiling in his grave and Max Mosely has a brace of hookers in Questionable WW2 Commemorative Uniforms in the basement celebrating.  

 

I like LEC and have always thought he was the real deal.  I now believe he has lost a bit of luster due to this driving.  He's almost in the Max territory with the spectacle today. 



#127 Requiem84

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:44

I don't get the outrage. Leclerc made one iffy move which he received the warning flag for, and then didn't repeat it. Lesson learned, job done.


My annoyance is that last year it was worth a penalty and this year a warning.

I find that unfair in an incident which is 95% comparable.

#128 Whatisvalis

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:44

Similar to Silverstone I do think that it was on the limit but still okay (and if it wasnt Hamilton wouldnt have congratulated him straight after the race, I cant believe that you guys are still not getting it that every driver moans on the team radio automatically when somebody races tough)

Not really sure  how Leclerc got the black and white flag for one thing but not for the other, it's like they didnt want to give the 2nd yellow card against the home team. We'll see how they handle this in future races since it's just reintroduce, but I fear that they will be very creative on this one. We'll see.

 

They need to abandon the BW flag - it forces the stewards into a corner. If you can get an official warning then the next obvious infringement should be a penalty

 

Masi

"If we use the example of this weekend (SPA), if a black and white had been issued for exceeding track limits at Turn 4 [Radillon], for setting the loop off three times, and then you got another one for another incident, you wouldn't get a second black and white, you would be referred to the stewards as a breach."

 

In my view Charles cutting the chicane warranted a review by the stewards (it was noted), and because of the existing BW flag against him, should have received a penalty if they had followed the rules. I don't think he deserved a penalty, but keeping the lead like that after making a mistake pisses me off.



#129 KLF1F

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:44

This is a step in the right direction. We really need to ignore those who cry for penalties all the time.

#130 Astandahl

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:44

https://streamable.com/i099w

 

This is the interview with Masi.

 

As i told you before he said : " Things have absolutely changed ( since Austria ). We are under a new regime : " Let them race "  ( everyone was involved in this : FIA , drivers and teams ).

 

They have decided with the teams to use the white and black flag more often. 



#131 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:45

My annoyance is that last year it was worth a penalty and this year a warning.
I find that unfair in an incident which is 95% comparable.


You mean a bottas v Max? Because contact was the difference...

#132 Perfection

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:45

I hope when Lewis pulled off one of this move on Ferrari drivers, then usual suspects here won't start to complain  :drunk: It is clear that this is how F1 runs nowadays...



#133 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:45

They need to abandon the BW flag - it forces the stewards into a corner. If you can get an official warning then the next obvious infringement should be a penalty

 

Masi

"If we use the example of this weekend (SPA), if a black and white had been issued for exceeding track limits at Turn 4 [Radillon], for setting the loop off three times, and then you got another one for another incident, you wouldn't get a second black and white, you would be referred to the stewards as a breach."

 

In my view Charles cutting the chicane warranted a review by the stewards (it was noted), and because of the existing BW flag against him, should have received a penalty if they had followed the rules. I don't think he deserved a penalty, but keeping the lead like that after making a mistake pisses me off.

 

That doesn't make sense. The investigation into cutting the chicane was dropped, hence there would have been no reason to apply a penalty just because he already had a warning against him.



#134 Perfection

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:46

I don't get the outrage. Leclerc made one iffy move which he received the warning flag for, and then didn't repeat it. Lesson learned, job done.

 

 

I don't think that he was aware of what he was wrong at. You can get it from when he asked afterwrads what he has done.



#135 Requiem84

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:47

You mean a bottas v Max? Because contact was the difference...


Like I said earlier, that would mean the driver who is being pushed of determines the penalty by either chosing to make contact or to move onto the grass?

Next time Hamilton should just rub wheels and he would win the race?

#136 Astandahl

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:51

Like I said earlier, that would mean the driver who is being pushed of determines the penalty by either chosing to make contact or to move onto the grass?

Next time Hamilton should just rub wheels and he would win the race?

Very dangerous to rub wheels at that speed. Most of the time if there is contact ( and that was the case last year ) one of the drivers loses a lot of time ( in fact bottas had to cut the chicane and lost multiple seconds ). Maybe Lewis would have won the race or maybe he would have lost the car and Leclerc would have got a much harsher penalty. It's a new approach. Is it good ? Who knows.



#137 Heyli

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:51

So because it was not penalize before it's ok ?

Running people off the road destroy racing, at corner entry or at the exit.

We want to see fight, not drivers pushing another drivers. It's not stock cars..

If you can't defend without pushing a driver off track it's better you leave the steering wheel to another driver IMO..


Running people off track is the death of the sport, it's not a fight. It's not because you try to overtake on the inside that you own all width of the track and can decide if the other driver have the right or not to be here.

Austria decision was one of the dumbest made these past years.

No, I am saying that behaviour didnt start in Austria.



#138 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:52

Like I said earlier, that would mean the driver who is being pushed of determines the penalty by either chosing to make contact or to move onto the grass?
Next time Hamilton should just rub wheels and he would win the race?


I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that the bottas v Max incident would have been penalised in this race.

#139 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:53

Very dangerous to rub wheels at that speed. Most of the time if there is contact ( and that was the case last year ) one of the drivers loses a lot of time ( in fact bottas had to cut the chicane and lost multiple seconds ). Maybe Lewis would have won the race or maybe he would have lost the car and Leclerc would have got a much harsher penalty. It's a new approach. Is it good ? Who knows.


I think Charles may modify his approach when in a WDC fight or after some incidents, as Max has, as Lewis did...there are some mole hills being turned into mountains imo.

Edited by robefc, 08 September 2019 - 16:54.


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#140 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:54

Like I said earlier, that would mean the driver who is being pushed of determines the penalty by either chosing to make contact or to move onto the grass?

Next time Hamilton should just rub wheels and he would win the race?


Similar with the unsafe release in Monaco vs Germany. You only have to nudge (ie not evade) the other to claim the contact and get the penalty to the other.

#141 thefinalapex

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:54

I hope when Lewis pulled off one of this move on Ferrari drivers, then usual suspects here won't start to complain  :drunk: It is clear that this is how F1 runs nowadays...

 

Also the same people that always defend lewis no matter what? because your side also has the 'usual suspects' with double standards...



#142 Whatisvalis

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:55

That doesn't make sense. The investigation into cutting the chicane was dropped, hence there would have been no reason to apply a penalty just because he already had a warning against him.

 

Pretty sure it was penalized in F2, and he gained an advantage by maintaining the lead. Should be an automatic penalty with a BW flag already shown.



#143 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:56

Pretty sure it was penalized in F2, and he gained an advantage by maintaining the lead. Should be an automatic penalty with a BW flag already shown.

We've seen this numerous times. Lewis in Monaco vs Ricciardo. The difference in Canada with Vettel was that Vettel tried to steer into the opposing wall.

#144 SCUDmissile

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:56

The Monza Ferrari stuff is bad form when we have already established many other instances of stuff like this going unpunished.

Also I actually like the black and white flag coming back.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 08 September 2019 - 16:57.


#145 P123

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:56

I don't get the outrage. Leclerc made one iffy move which he received the warning flag for, and then didn't repeat it. Lesson learned, job done.


Is there outrage?

One dodgy move under braking, the sort of thing people get annoyed at Max for. The black and whatever warning was a fair way of dealing with it. Potentially dangerous and not something to be repeated, which he didn't. And one so-so move to defend in curva grande after going off. I think the stewards dealt with it correctly. They all take it to the limit at times, some better than others. Today Leclerc was walking the tightrope just about right. I was entertained anyway. A good example that a race doesn't need 100 passes to be a good one.

#146 JBJ

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:56

If not 1 then it is 2. Clear and simple answer. I'm happy for this attitude that the Stewards have taken on. #LetThemRace

I have no problem with his driving, don't have any problem with Verstappen's either
But the black and white was waved and this way it doesn't mean anything



#147 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:57

Pretty sure it was penalized in F2, and he gained an advantage by maintaining the lead. Should be an automatic penalty with a BW flag already shown.



You don't gain an advantage when you maintain what you already have

And when he rejoin the track Hamilton was even closer than before so he even lost some time.

#148 Whatisvalis

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:59

You don't gain an advantage when you maintain what you already have

And when he rejoin the track Hamilton was even closer than before so he even lost some time.

 

Except there is a designated route to follow if you miss that corner. Hamilton could have done what Charles did and kept 2nd.



#149 NixxxoN

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 16:59

Tough one, Leclerc should have left more space and he got away with it.... But on the other hand, if they gave Leclerc the 5 seconds penalty, we would all be bitching like mad because they would have spoiled the race and gifted it to LH/Merc like in Canada



#150 monolulu

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 17:04

Like I said earlier, that would mean the driver who is being pushed of determines the penalty by either chosing to make contact or to move onto the grass?
Next time Hamilton should just rub wheels and he would win the race?

More likely he would have ended up in the fence, he has a championship to consider.