28 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

A small point arising from the discussion over Vettel's exit and re-entry onto the track yesterday:
 

Asked in a follow-up question by Crash.net if a black flag had been considered for Vettel, Masi said: "No. Not to my knowledge. It’s not something that the stewards brought up."
Masi went on to explain that a black flag could only be issued after the race as drivers cannot be disqualified without a hearing, as per the FIA's International Sporting Code.
 
"You’ve got to something seriously severe to be disqualified from a race," Masi said.
"Furthermore, you can’t actually disqualify under the International Sporting Code without the ability to give somebody the opportunity of being heard.
"So even in that case, a black flag would not be displayed in the race. It would be in a hearing afterwards."

 

 

https://www.crash.ne...ttel-italian-gp

 

That seems extraordinary! Might as well get rid of the black flag then if it's not actually ever going to be deployed again.

[P123]

A small point arising from the discussion over Vettel's exit and re-entry onto the track yesterday:
 
 
https://www.crash.ne...ttel-italian-gp
 
That seems extraordinary! Might as well get rid of the black flag then if it's not actually ever going to be deployed again.

I'm assuming they would still use it if somebody, for example, failed to serve a penalty? Or is Masi suggesting they would let them trundle round regardless and have a lengthy hearing about it afterwards.

[SophieB]

I'm assuming they would still use it if somebody, for example, failed to serve a penalty? Or is Masi suggesting they would let them trundle round regardless and have a lengthy hearing about it afterwards.

 

This seems to be what he is saying, doesn't it?

 

edit: I liked the bit about how it would be deployed in the hearing afterwards. I like to think the judge in charge of the hearing would get up and literally wave it personally in careful solemnity before handing down his findings, like how prisoners in the dock in Victorian Britain knew they were done for because the judge would reach for his black cap before announcing a death sentence.

[JeePee]

"You’ve got to something seriously severe to be disqualified from a race," Masi said.

 

I don't really know what action is more seriously. Maybe driving around the circuit in the opposite direction... But what Vettel did was a clear black flag for me. I give Stroll the benefit of the doubt because he was parked full on the apex.

[P123]

This seems to be what he is saying, doesn't it?
 
edit: I liked the bit about how it would be deployed in the hearing afterwards. I like to think the judge in charge of the hearing would get up and literally wave it personally in careful solemnity before handing down his findings, like how prisoners in the dock in Victorian Britain knew they were done for because the judge would reach for his black cap before announcing a death sentence.

They could take the transgressing driver out on to the podium and have the sentence read out to the crowd, with a digital black flag fluttering in the background. I can think of that being the one occasion the Italians fans may cheer when Hamilton was on the podium.

We need somebody to test it out in the race... dodge serving a penalty or something.

In fact, I'm sure a few have been DQ'd for ignoring/ missing red lights in the pitlane. Mika from quali at Indy, JPM and Fisi in the race in Canada. Or JPM for being a couple of seconds too late getting into his car on the grid at Indy in 2004.... which took them 3/4s of the race to figure out.

[Risil]

There's a bit in an old British GP broadcast when Elio de Angelis does something wrong and in lieu of a stop-go penalty or whatever he's called into the pitlane and the clerk of the course tells him off mid-race. Maybe that would count as a hearing?

[Balnazzard]

I mean wasnt Massa black flagged from the race in Canada 2007 for coming from the pitlane when the red traffic light was still on? I think what Vettel did yesterday was atlaest as bad as that if not worse. Also I honestly cant understand how Kimi could get the same penalty as Vettel yesterday for starting with wrong tyres that btw didnt even work at all.
 

So I honestly cant understand these penalties....suddenly they have again taken the black-white flag back into use (which is good that driver would be warned in situations like Leclerc vs Hamilton before giving a penalty), but using black flag is still almost entirely out of the question?

Edited by Balnazzard, 09 September 2019 - 08:59.

[Jazza]

I remember that there was talk of using it against Micheal Schumacher in Hungary 2010 when he nearly put Rubens Barrichello into the pit wall. The reason why they didn’t was because the race was nearly over so it wouldn’t have mattered.

Seemed like a BS reason then, and this is even worse. Imagine not black flagging a reckless driver until they can have their side heard, only for them to cause another incident, possibly fatal. There are times when you have to shoot first and ask questions later, otherwise you risk a more serious issue developing. There is seriously no point in halos and tecpro barriers if drivers allowed to use their car as a weapon until after the race is finished.

[Kalmake]

Black flag doesn't actually mean DQ. It means get in the pits.

 

Stewards can straight disqualify for an incident, but that can be appealed, unlike time penalties.

 

In the name of safety, they can of course black flag someone who seems just plain dangerous.

[TomNokoe]

Masi is a totally different character than Charlie.

[SophieB]

Black flag doesn't actually mean DQ. It means get in the pits.
 
Stewards can straight disqualify for an incident, but that can be appealed, unlike time penalties.
 
In the name of safety, they can of course black flag someone who seems just plain dangerous.

 
I considered this and it's right, even if in practice this is how it's usually been deployed but doesn't he seem to directly link Black Flag to DSQ himself when he says:

 

"Furthermore, you can’t actually disqualify under the International Sporting Code without the ability to give somebody the opportunity of being heard. So even in that case, a black flag would not be displayed in the race"

[ExFlagMan]

So what will Masi do if, having shown someone the black & white flag, they commit another transgression - show them 2 black & white flags at the same time.

 

Last time I was 'persuaded' to execute the flag role on the start/finish line, there was only a single example of each of the 'sacred' flags that are the sole preserve of that position.

 

I hear the sound of the flag manufacturers rubbing their hands in glee.

[ExFlagMan]

Given that being shown a black flag the driver must return to the pit lane - and it used to be not to their pit but to the penalty box, then it is an effective disqualification if the officials do not let them return to the race.

[Clatter]

It's strange that they say they can't DQ someone for poor driving standards without hearing their side, but they can handout time penalties, drive thrus, stop/go penalties, all of which can ruin someones race, without hearing from them.

[sgtkate]

"You’ve got to something seriously severe to be disqualified from a race," Masi said.

 

I don't really know what action is more seriously. Maybe driving around the circuit in the opposite direction... But what Vettel did was a clear black flag for me. I give Stroll the benefit of the doubt because he was parked full on the apex.

Absolute agreed. I was actually waiting for him to be black flagged. I can understand all the points about how difficult it is to see from these cars etc but if you can't guarantee it's safe then you don't rejoin. Yet another incident that will now snowball into more and more drivers taking those kinds of risk ending up with a serious accident.

[SophieB]

So what will Masi do if, having shown someone the black & white flag, they commit another transgression - show them 2 black & white flags at the same time.

 

Last time I was 'persuaded' to execute the flag role on the start/finish line, there was only a single example of each of the 'sacred' flags that are the sole preserve of that position.

 

I hear the sound of the flag manufacturers rubbing their hands in glee.

 

I don't think they intended to carry on the analogy to football's yellow card to imply that a repeat would therefore mean the equivalent of a red card (i.e. a black flag), I think the next stage of the black and white flag is whatever regular penalties they would have handed out before, like 5 seconds added time etc. 

[Anja]

It's nothing new that the harshest penalties seem to be essentially off the table nowadays. That's just making it official, good to know 

 

But I don't get the reasoning behind it. I thought they wanted to create a good show, and giving out black flags or race bans for serious stuff creates heavy drama. It's like they want the sport to be as bland and mild as possible. Not to mention the continuous extending of range of transgressions that the drivers can get away with, despite supposedly pushing for safety at every step. 

Edited by Anja, 09 September 2019 - 10:09.

[SophieB]

They could take the transgressing driver out on to the podium and have the sentence read out to the crowd, with a digital black flag fluttering in the background. I can think of that being the one occasion the Italians fans may cheer when Hamilton was on the podium.
 

 

I like this idea too, reminds me of the sentencing of General Zod and co to the Phantom Zone

 

[ANF]

I honestly believed that team managers could be summoned to the stewards during the race and that disqualifications could happen before the end of the race, but I might be wrong.

Anyway, the 2019 International Sporting Code says:
"Any one of the above penalties can only be inflicted after consideration of the evidence available and, in case of one of the last three [disqualification, suspension, exclusion], the party concerned must be summoned to give them the opportunity of presenting their defence."

I have a copy of the 1997 Code and it basically said the same thing:
"Any one of the above penalties can only be inflicted after an enquiry has been held and, in case of one of the last three [the same three as in 2019], the concerned party must be summoned to give them the opportunity of presenting their defence."

[ExFlagMan]

Just checked my copy of the Yellow Book - 1974 edition - and the wording is the same.
 
So just black flag them and march them up to the stewards office during the race - the ISC wording does not say they cannot do it, so it must be OK

Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 September 2019 - 11:32.

[ExFlagMan]

Just checked the MSA blue book that covers UK national racing and it says the following.

Black flag displayed with the competitor’s
number: The driver must stop at his pit on the
next lap of receiving the signal and report to the
Clerk of the Course. A penalty of disqualification
may be enforced by display of the Black flag.

Sound like a better wording - leaves less wriggle room.

That in itself should be sufficient penalty if your pit is at the Redgate end of the pit road at Donington - could take some time for the driver to get to RC - get the 'b*******g' and get back to the car.

I suppose the COC could 'possibly' go to the driver's pit instead, but for some (most?) of the Clerks I have known, that would take even longer - No offence meant to any senior officials who may be reading.

[SophieB]

None of this seems to support Masi's interpretation as being either what the rules say (or mean in practice) or his interpretation being a good idea.

[ExFlagMan]

What do you expect - this if F1 after all.

Incidentally - I am not sure the title of this thread is absolutely correct.

I believe the Black Flag (also B&W and 'meatball' flag ) should be displayed stationary not waved.

Couple of reasons for this

- Each of these flags is used with a board displaying the drivers number - difficult to do that and wave a flag at the same time - Not all race meetings have the luxury of redundancy of marshals granted to a GP.

- Waving any of those flags tends to make them less visible - or at least makes it more difficult for the driver to see which flag it is, especially if it is displayed against a crowded pit wall.

No doubt someone on here will inform us that the above is utter rubbish, but believe me we did some tests at on the visibility (or lack of) of the flags at Oulton Park many years ago.
- Unlike the FIA with many of their decisions.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 September 2019 - 12:15.

[ExFlagMan]

edit: I liked the bit about how it would be deployed in the hearing afterwards. I like to think the judge in charge of the hearing would get up and literally wave it personally in careful solemnity before handing down his findings, like how prisoners in the dock in Victorian Britain knew they were done for because the judge would reach for his black cap before announcing a death sentence.

Better use of it would be to mop up the results of 'involuntary bodily function incidents' in the waiting area outside the stewards office. I always assumed this was the reason that they made those summoned to RC at Oulton Park wait at the bottom of the outside steps - made it less noticeable, especially when it was raining.

[Tsarwash]

I mean wasnt Massa black flagged from the race in Canada 2007 for coming from the pitlane when the red traffic light was still on? I think what Vettel did yesterday was atlaest as bad as that if not worse. Also I honestly cant understand how Kimi could get the same penalty as Vettel yesterday for starting with wrong tyres that btw didnt even work at all.
 

So I honestly cant understand these penalties....suddenly they have again taken the black-white flag back into use (which is good that driver would be warned in situations like Leclerc vs Hamilton before giving a penalty), but using black flag is still almost entirely out of the question?

Both Massa and Fisichella. Does this new ruling mean that this cannot happen any more ? I would assume so.

[pdac]

None of this seems to support Masi's interpretation as being either what the rules say (or mean in practice) or his interpretation being a good idea.

 

Are you suggesting that he does not understand enough to do his job effectively?

[SophieB]

Are you suggesting that he does not understand enough to do his job effectively?

 

I am not approaching it in those terms, I am trying to clarify what is up with the black flag.

[ExFlagMan]

Nothing wrong with it - it appears to have been working OK for many years at all levels of the sport.

Maybe it does not allow enough wriggle room for those in charge of F1 to manipulate things 'for the benefit of the show' - 'cos that's what they believe keeps broadcasters willing to pay the exorbitant money.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 September 2019 - 13:38.

[HeadFirst]

I mean wasnt Massa black flagged from the race in Canada 2007 for coming from the pitlane when the red traffic light was still on? I think what Vettel did yesterday was atlaest as bad as that if not worse. Also I honestly cant understand how Kimi could get the same penalty as Vettel yesterday for starting with wrong tyres that btw didnt even work at all.
 

So I honestly cant understand these penalties....suddenly they have again taken the black-white flag back into use (which is good that driver would be warned in situations like Leclerc vs Hamilton before giving a penalty), but using black flag is still almost entirely out of the question?

 

You can't understand, because in F1 the penalties and/or their enforcement make no sense! Join the "Club Of No Understanding" immediately.