316 replies to this topic

[shure]

This was Dennis's take on the meeting.


Naturally he is going to play down it's impact, but discussing your driver in an unflattering light with another party (a potential employer), and that being fed back to the driver isn't exactly going to aid negotiations, especially if at a crucial stage. Besides, if you listen to Whitmarsh they put a lot of effort in to keep Hamilton, even including an offer that would have made him the highest paid on the grid. Yet the way Dennis would tell it, repeatedly, was that Hamilton's salary would have to come down, that he was merely an employee, and that it was McLaren's decision to let him go in the end. He'd also refused to join in celebrations of Hamilton's victory at Monza, so there was already an unsubtle and public level of animosity from him directed at Hamilton. He'd already misjudged things with Kimi, so not beyond the realms of possibility that he'd also misjudge how his words could be conveyed or perceived.

Yes this sounds about right.  And IIRC both Denis and Hamilton seemed to be conducting discussions in public - his "he's just an employee" comment came after Hamilton publicly stated that certain things in the contract "were going to change."  I think both were riling each other up and both let their pride take over to an extent.

[Talisman]

I don't think I am that person, no.

 

My point in part is: what was it that Ron said? Do we know? Did Lewis Hamilton know?

In his book Nick Fry is giving us his spin on what he "heard" third-hand (from Ross Brawn, who too had not been at the meeting). Zetsche had an axe to grind in wanting to make Ron seem the villain who was bad-mouthing Lewis, Brawn had the same axe to grind, as did Fry, who apparently relayed his third-hand version to that paragon of objectivity Simon Spice Girls Fuller, who then said something to Hamiltons's lawyer, who then passed on something to Lewis.

I agree that, if what Fry alleges (that Ron Dennis did) was true, it would have harmed Hamilton's relationship with McLaren. But we don't know that it was true, and even Nick Fry doesn't know that it was true. He might believe it, and even believe that what he reported in his book was as accurate a rendition as could possibly be written, but that doesn't make it true.

 

I don't see the issue here, as someone else has posted Ron admits to discussing the exact topic with Zetsche and as Fry points out by that stage the relationship between McLaren and Lewis had pretty much died.  Negotiations between Lewis and Fry had pretty much concluded and he just needed a little push to sign.  Had Ron not acted Lewis would probably have signed anyway.

 

Anyway I don't think Fry is the only source who claims this happened this way.  Didn't the Daily Mail describe the encounter in similar terms?

[Talisman]

Hardly a revelation then that Fry didn't like or rate Villeneuve. Then again they were considering Heidfeld apparantly, who JV outqualified, more often than not, at BMW in 2006. Fry must have missed that. Damn that selective amnesia.

 

Fry himself is derisive about Heidfeld but mentions him twice.  Once as a replacement for Button when its clear he won't be around for 2010 and later when looking at a potential replacement for Michael.  In the first instance he uses Heidfeld to illustrate how poor the driver market is when a driver makes his intention to leave the team clear after all the best drivers are taken (incidentally Fry also says Ron didn't inform him before making public that he had signed Jenson which is a breach of protocol), ie the only guy left was Heidfeld who he didn't want.

 

The second time he says that Mercedes were oddly infatuated with signing him.  His response to that was to pursue Lewis.

 

He compares Nick to Jenson or Michael (I can't remember which) as the guy down the gym vs Mohammed Ali.  He makes it pretty clear he doesn't rate him.

Edited by Talisman, 09 October 2019 - 09:00.

[Talisman]

He'd already misjudged things with Kimi, so not beyond the realms of possibility that he'd also misjudge how his words could be conveyed or perceived.

 

He was soon about to misjudge things very badly with Ojjeh too.  How did that one pan out again?

[Marklar]

He compares Nick to Jenson or Michael (I can't remember which) as the guy down the gym vs Mohammed Ali. He makes it pretty clear he doesn't rate him.

it was to Lewis as mentioned on the first page

[Hela]

I don't think I am that person, no.

 

My point in part is: what was it that Ron said? Do we know? Did Lewis Hamilton know?

In his book Nick Fry is giving us his spin on what he "heard" third-hand (from Ross Brawn, who too had not been at the meeting). Zetsche had an axe to grind in wanting to make Ron seem the villain who was bad-mouthing Lewis, Brawn had the same axe to grind, as did Fry, who apparently relayed his third-hand version to that paragon of objectivity Simon Spice Girls Fuller, who then said something to Hamiltons's lawyer, who then passed on something to Lewis.

I agree that, if what Fry alleges (that Ron Dennis did) was true, it would have harmed Hamilton's relationship with McLaren. But we don't know that it was true, and even Nick Fry doesn't know that it was true. He might believe it, and even believe that what he reported in his book was as accurate a rendition as could possibly be written, but that doesn't make it true.

 

I think some of what was said may have been known. As it was reported at the time and Ron Dennis himself did not try to deny it 

 

https://www.dailymai...s-Hamilton.html

 

According to the above article

 

The extraordinary intervention of Ron Dennis as Lewis Hamilton was preparing to leave McLaren can now be revealed.

Sportsmail understands that Dennis, non-executive chairman of McLaren and Hamilton’s sponsor on his journey from karter to world champion, flew on his private jet to Stuttgart to meet Dieter Zetsche, chief executive of Mercedes’s parent company Daimler.

 

Dennis is understood to have made a series of claims which can only have shown Hamilton in an unflattering light. Some have interpreted that as an attempt to dissuade Zetsche from signing the Briton. 

 

Dennis alluded to a story in The Sun from July last year which reported that Hamilton had partied into the early hours with 10 women. It told how after clubbing with US rapper J Cole, he had taken the girls, and male friends, to London’s Mayfair hotel. Hamilton’s aides said at the time that ‘nothing untoward’ had occurred.

 

Martin Whitmarsh, McLaren team principal, discovered what had happened on Dennis’s trip only when Zetsche phoned people close to the deal, including Hamilton’s management.

 

Management figures at McLaren believe Dennis did not help their attempt to keep Hamilton, who moved to Mercedes in time for the start of this season. Dennis denies that those discussions had any relevance to the driver leaving but Hamilton, who is on good terms with Whitmarsh, did not speak to Dennis for months, until this year’s Italian Grand Prix.

 

In correspondence with Sportsmail, Dennis said: ‘Dieter is a friend, someone whom I’ve known for more than 15 years. I had a number of meetings with Dieter in the latter part of 2012 and our discussions were primarily commercial, and obviously confidential. I don’t recall our discussing any matter that hadn’t already entered the public domain.

 

‘So, for me, this is a real storm in a teacup. Yes, I had meetings with Dieter, and in the course of those meetings we touched on many issues, some of which related to Lewis.

 

‘The fact that Lewis had been photographed with a group of women at a London hotel was one of the subjects we discussed, but those discussions had no relevance to his leaving McLaren.’

 

Edited by Hela, 09 October 2019 - 12:49.

[New Britain]

I think some of what was said may have been known. As it was reported at the time and Ron Dennis himself did not try to deny it 

 

https://www.dailymai...s-Hamilton.html

 

According to the above article

 

Okay, I think so far we have heard these explanations for why Lewis Hamilton made the surprising decision in 2012 to move from McLaren to Mercedes:

- Ron disrespected Hamilton by proposing a reduction in his salary;

- Ron flew in his private jet to Stuttgart in order to bad-mouth Hamilton to Dieter Zetsche, which Hamilton was told about and resented;

- McLaren contracts required too many days doing sponsor events, which intruded on Lewis's outside interests;

- Lewis's patience with McLaren ran out when his gearbox broke whilst he was leading the Singapore GP;

- Niki Lauda met with him in Singapore and persuaded him that the greatest driving legacies lay in winning championships for more than one team;

- Hamilton knew that the size of Mercedes's PU budget would give them a huge structural advantage starting in 2014;

- Ross Brawn and Lewis had a homely chat in Hamilton's mum's kitchen and Lewis found Brawn's charm and caring nature irresistible. 

 

Or maybe all of the above, some much more than others.

[garoidb]

I have wondered before about the escalator contracts that Lewis was on. From what I can gather, the contract amounts started at a given level with higher and higher payments year on year. I suppose this made the contract attractive initially - Lewis was hot property in 2007, but on a shorter smaller contract. By 2012, Lewis would have been on the upper amount, and probably not expecting to plateau there. Could McLaren do another escalator, starting above the 2012 level and going up from there at a similar rate to previously? If not, would Lewis (or his agent or negotiator) feel that he was being short-changed? Could this escalator system be why he was being offered less for 2013 than he was getting in 2012 (e.g. starting on or above the average of the 2008-2012 contract)? The world had changed between 2007 and 2012 (global financial crash) and McLaren had lost sponsors. 

[Talisman]

Okay, I think so far we have heard these explanations for why Lewis Hamilton made the surprising decision in 2012 to move from McLaren to Mercedes:

- Ron disrespected Hamilton by proposing a reduction in his salary;

- Ron flew in his private jet to Stuttgart in order to bad-mouth Hamilton to Dieter Zetsche, which Hamilton was told about and resented;

- McLaren contracts required too many days doing sponsor events, which intruded on Lewis's outside interests;

- Lewis's patience with McLaren ran out when his gearbox broke whilst he was leading the Singapore GP;

- Niki Lauda met with him in Singapore and persuaded him that the greatest driving legacies lay in winning championships for more than one team;

- Hamilton knew that the size of Mercedes's PU budget would give them a huge structural advantage starting in 2014;

- Ross Brawn and Lewis had a homely chat in Hamilton's mum's kitchen and Lewis found Brawn's COMPARISON OF MERCEDES F1'S BUDGET VS THAT OF MCLAREN HIGHLY COMPELLING.

 

Or maybe all of the above, some much more than others.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Ultimately Lewis realised that McLaren was in decline and hopped over to a team that had lashings of money, had previously proven to be able to build a championship winning car and was lead by Ross.  Plus on a personal level he clashed with Ron.  I don't think it has to be more complicated than that really.

[F1 Mike]

Very true that Ron was capable of misjudging things, as he demonstrated more than once.

I believe the accepted version (from Whitmarsh) was that initially McLaren, aka Ron, tried to cut Lewis's salary, but towards the end they relented and supposedly offered him at least as much if not more than what Mercedes did. Ron clearly made certain things more difficult for Hamilton than he needed to do, although for his part Lewis became not the easiest guy to deal with. Maybe an irreconcilable clash of their two big egos was inevitable.
Regarding the Motorsport piece that you quote, Ron does not say at which of their "number of meetings" this hotel photo was discussed by Zetsche and himself, he does not say even which of them brought it up (could have been Zetsche: "I see one of your drivers is very popular with the ladies...."), and certainly there is no indication that, as apparently was implied if not stated in the Fry book, Ron Dennis had flown to Stuttgart for the specific purpose of bad-mouthing Lewis Hamilton and putting Mercedes off signing him.

Again, I am not saying that nothing happened, as I could not possibly know what really happened. What I am saying is that Nick Fry has a book to sell, he may have scores to settle, and his third-hand, hearsay-at-best version of what may have been said at one of a number of meetings should not be taken as gospel.

Your posts about McLaren over the years have always fascinated me. Did you work for the team?

[New Britain]

Fixed that for you.

 

Ultimately Lewis realised that McLaren was in decline and hopped over to a team that had lashings of money, had previously proven to be able to build a championship winning car and was lead by Ross.  Plus on a personal level he clashed with Ron.  I don't think it has to be more complicated than that really.

I agree that that was the essence of why he left, although he had almost as much reason to stay, which was why it was a difficult choice for him.

My objection was to what I understood to be Nick Fry's contention that a key reason for why he left, or at least the catalyst for his decision to leave, was that Dennis made a special trip to Stuttgart to bad-mouth Lewis to Zetsche.

[New Britain]

Your posts about McLaren over the years have always fascinated me. Did you work for the team?

No, I have never worked there but I have had a business relationship with them for many years and know a lot of people there. That doesn't mean that I know what I am talking about, but I sometimes have opinions.

[Talisman]

I agree that that was the essence of why he left, although he had almost as much reason to stay, which was why it was a difficult choice for him.
My objection was to what I understood to be Nick Fry's contention that a key reason for why he left, or at least the catalyst for his decision to leave, was that Dennis made a special trip to Stuttgart to bad-mouth Lewis to Zetsche.

I guess you didn’t read the book because he doesn’t claim that.

[New Britain]

I guess you didn’t read the book because he doesn’t claim that.

I am utterly bemused, my friend.

 

In your summary (for which I thanked you) of the book, you wrote:

 

WRT Lewis Fry thinks the tipping point in signing him was when Ron found out that they had been talking.  He flew to Germany with allegations about Lewis misbehaving socially which backfired spectacularly as this was fed back to Hamilton's team ASAP.

 

[Talisman]

Yes, tipping point.

He explains how prior to this though he doesn’t expand, Lewis’s relationship with McLaren and Ron in particular deteriorates, how Lewis starts looking for an alternative, how he opens negotiations with him and thrashes out the basis of a contract. The Ron conversation is the tipping point according to Fry, not the driving force as you seem to believe.

Edited by Talisman, 09 October 2019 - 22:21.

[New Britain]

Yes, tipping point.

He explains how prior to this though he doesn’t expand, Lewis’s relationship with McLaren and Ron in particular deteriorates, how Lewis starts looking for an alternative, how he opens negotiations with him and thrashes out the basis of a contract. The Ron conversation is the tipping point according to Fry, not the driving force as you seem to believe.

In my post that you quoted, I wrote,

My objection was to what I understood to be Nick Fry's contention that a key reason for why he left, or at least the catalyst for his decision to leave...

 

A catalyst is a tipping point or, more precisely, that which actuates a tipping point.

Anyhow, we understand each other and I think we can now move on to discuss the numerous other fascinating revelations and insights in Nick Fry's must-read book.

[FortiFord]

Nick Fry, late of Honda, Brawn & Mercedes, has written a book “Survive. Drive. Win” . Not surprisingly, he needed the help of Ed Gorman to put it together.  I don't expect to hear much of interest coming from it.

 

The only titbit so far is that Mercedes preferred Nick Heidfeld to Lewis Hamilton when they were replacing MS.

 

Sorry to bump an old thread, but whilst i was on holiday last week i was listening to the Heidfeld podcast on F1: Beyond the Grid. Tom Clarkson specifically asked him about nearly getting the Merc seat in 2013. Heidfeld assumed that Tom was talking about 2010 and then confirmed that he was not in the running for 2013. 

 

Additionally, Brawn recently mentioned that Hulkenberg was the backup choice if Lewis didn't sign with them in 013 (https://www.formula1...XHDR3ME9n6.html). 

 

Maybe Nick fry just got confused between 2 German drivers?