49 replies to this topic

[jjcale]

First off, I know there is an unfortunate tendency to short term-ism and knee jerk reactions ... and on this occasion, I plead guilty.... but I think Singapore 2019 is an example of the worst aspects of modern F1 and something should be done.

 

The tyre conservation exercise of the first 15 or so laps was appalling. Not because the leader of the race was playing a tactical game - that is not uncommon - but because all the other 5 cars from the tops teams all went along with it. They were content to hold station for 15 laps and that simply was not racing. In fact it was completely pointless from the point of the view of the fans. 

 

We all know why it happened,... it was the only way to make a one stop strategy work... and why was there a one stop strategy? ... because there is a 2 compound rule. 

 

So what's the solution? ...  I say: at Monaco and Singapore force them to use a different strategy that has more scope for actual racing - even if the overtaking has to happen in the pits. And the best way to do that is to force them to run three compounds in the race. 

 

And if it works on street circuits, the FIA might look at extending this to all circuits....  they bring 3 tyres to races, why not use all of them?

 

 

Another option at Monaco and Singapore might be to allow the use of only one tyre compound and bring soft-ish compounds. At least one car will try to one one stop and that will add some more drama, without being too artificial.

 

 

What do you think?

[shure]

God, no.  It's bad enough having one mandatory stop without throwing more in.

 

The last race was run slow for the opening stint not because of the tyres but because the lead driver wanted the field to bunch up so that those immediately behind him wouldn't be tempted to do an undercut.  The moment Leclerc started pulling away a bit Vettel and Max found space and pulled in.

 

The problem here is the circuits, not the tyres.  Allowing an overtake via the pits is to my mind no better than a procession anyway. 

[SenorSjon]

Ditch the Start on Q2 tires AND dual compound rule. That solves it all actually. They were close to scrapping it, but it didn't make the cut last year. Oddly enough, they didn't decide to implement it a year later, when only a majority vote was needed in stead of an unanimous decision.

 

https://www.racefans...p-q3-tyre-rule/

 

And regarding the OP, it was handled here: https://www.racefans...strategy-group/

[w1Y]

The q2 tyre start rule is ridiculous. As someone said on one of the podcasts. The midfield is really exciting and part of that is the different strategies.

Singapore and Monaco do need something to change. Softer tyres and do something about the length of the pitstop.

If pitstops were less punishing time wise there would be more benefit in pitting and running harder.

[sgtkate]

I understand what you want to achieve but I don't think this is it. I want racing not a tactical battle and enforcing even more pit stops makes it that. Id' much prefer proper racing with no mandatory stops at all but with cars that can overtake.

[SenorSjon]

The q2 tyre start rule is ridiculous. As someone said on one of the podcasts. The midfield is really exciting and part of that is the different strategies.

Singapore and Monaco do need something to change. Softer tyres and do something about the length of the pitstop.

If pitstops were less punishing time wise there would be more benefit in pitting and running harder.

 

They were nursing the softs... That was not worth watching. Normally, the midfield would be cleared by around 30 seconds, now the first of the midfielders could hang on to Albon.

[V8 Fireworks]

What do you think?

 

Yes!!!!!!!

 

I see no reason not to have two mandatory pit stops at all Grands Prix. 

 

PS.  Please add a poll! 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 September 2019 - 08:32.

[jjcale]

Yes!!!!!!!

 

I see no reason not to have two mandatory pit stops at all Grands Prix. 

 

PS.  Please add a poll! 

 

Good Idea.

 

Mods, can you help please. 

[Rediscoveryx]

God, no.  It's bad enough having one mandatory stop without throwing more in.

 

The last race was run slow for the opening stint not because of the tyres but because the lead driver wanted the field to bunch up so that those immediately behind him wouldn't be tempted to do an undercut.  The moment Leclerc started pulling away a bit Vettel and Max found space and pulled in.

 

The problem here is the circuits, not the tyres.  Allowing an overtake via the pits is to my mind no better than a procession anyway. 

 

 

I think you're correct.

 

More compounds are not the solution, and to be honest I personally didn't really mind the tactical games played. I think the annoyance mainly stems from those who didn't get that Leclerc was trying to avoid being undercut rather than nursing his tyres per se. If all races were like this then yes, we'd have a problem. In this case it was actually quite interesting in my opinion, as it was something we haven't really seen before, so we were in a bit of "uncharted waters". That's also partly why Vettel was able to pull of a fairly unexpected win.

 

Personally, I think the teams should be allowed to use whatever compounds they wish, and even go for a 0 stop strategy should they chose to. Exception perhaps for Monaco, but why not have a "must use two tyre compounds" rule specifically for that race? If Pirelli should bring another compound to the races it would be better to have that be a pure qualifying tyre that lasts a maximum of two laps (and then scrap the "start on Q2 tyres" rule).

[jannyg]

I do think Pirelli should just allow all compounds and let teams use what they want.

[CoolBreeze]

First off, i think Pirelli needs to be out of F1. 

 

We need just two tyres.....qualifying tyres, and race tyres, which are durable, but can be pushed, rather than just cruise around. 

 

I feel pity for F1 fans paying massively just to seem them go for Sunday drive almost half of the race. 

[Dutchrudder]

The thing here is though, that Leclerc lost the race because he didnt have enough gap to stop the undercut in the end, his own tactics worked against him, although not against his team, oddly.

[PayasYouRace]

I think it’s yet another reaction to a race that didn’t follow the OP’s preferred formula.

I like that certain circuits produce circumstances that require different strategies and tactics. It’s bad enough that teams have to use 2 compounds rather than having the freedom to use whatever they think will work best.

But I have a better idea. Remove the rule that has the top ten start on their Q2 tyres. If you want them to push all the way, let them start on tyres that allow it.

But I though Singapore worked well and was different to what we usually get.

[Rediscoveryx]

I do think Pirelli should just allow all compounds and let teams use what they want.

 

I'd assume there's a cost issue at hand here as well. Transporting a zillion sets that end up not being used would be a major cost driver.

[SophieB]

Good Idea.

 

Mods, can you help please. 

 

Done as requested. Glad you also reported your own post, btw - this is easily the quickest way to get action taken for stuff like this.

 

I'd be happy to try out more compulsory pitstops and see how it goes, why not.

[screamingV16]

I hate compulsory pitstops and the top ten starting on Q2 tyres nonsense. The more things are restricted and regulated the more predictable things become and consequentially more inane restrictions and regulations are introduced to 'spice the show up' . It's the same with the engine regs and the consequent bullet proof reliability, engine saving, grid penalty crap, domination of the podium by the same 2-3 teams.

[noikeee]

No, F1 is about racing, not about juggling all the different tyre compounds in Pirelli's catalog.

[TomNokoe]

I've said before that the 3 compound rule has, in the long-run, hurt racing more than it has helped. The hardest of three compounds brought to a GP weekend is always just hard enough to make one-stops work.

IMO Pirelli should start with dropping at least one of the 5 total compounds and also consider reverting back to 2 compounds per race. We need to have some race weekends where the compounds don't quite fit the circuit, either too hard or too soft, or massive deltas between them. This happened all the time in 2011-2013 and we had better racing for it. 2011 was Pirelli's best year, bizarrely. Since then they have focussed too much on their brand image and ""the product"".

I agree with others that the starting tyre rule should also be scrapped because it opens up so much more strategic variance.

 

I'm sure if it was announced that the 3 compound rule was being dropped, fans would be up in arms about how restrictive it is and blah blah blah, but once again, it simply gives the teams an easy out and default strategy, which is boring!!

 

In truth, there's no perfect solution. I maintain 2011 was Pirelli's best year but 2019 has probably been their second best. If the cars could follow, it would alleviate a lot of problems and threads like this.

Edited by TomNokoe, 24 September 2019 - 09:25.

[SenorSjon]

Tom, we had that and you see delta driving to make the tires last. The Ferrari's were fast enough in other places to prevent getting overtaken, so they could nurse everything. Even Kubica was faster! I hate to see this at every street race.

 

DTM had 2 mandatory pitstops, eventually with pit windows when to take them. It didn't help racing one bit.

[TomNokoe]

Tom, we had that and you see delta driving to make the tires last.

Yeah I was considering this, I suppose my memory just isn't that great. Maybe 2011 was so good because nobody quite knew how to deal with it.

Edited by TomNokoe, 24 September 2019 - 09:26.

[Marklar]

It makes absolutely no sense to have mandatory pitstops, because then really everyone would be on the same strategy and then its so much more boring. I dont even get why this is suggested so much every time.

Rather Pirelli should have bigger deltas between their compounds, so that it's actually worth to try a alternate strategy. Drop the requirement to have to pit at all even. That could even make races like Monaco interesting.

[SenorSjon]

Super Formula goes the wrong way imo: https://www.motorspo...kayama/4545248/

[jjcale]

Super Formula goes the wrong way imo: https://www.motorspo...kayama/4545248/

 

Drastic times call for drastic measures!

 

[shure]

Super Formula goes the wrong way imo: https://www.motorspo...kayama/4545248/

All kinds or wrong in that article.  They don't want "unconventional" strategies, which basically means that the FIA now also wants to control which strategies a team uses; but what really caught my eye was the idea that if a driver has a puncture then the tyre change won't count towards his mandatory stops.  What genius thought that one up?  

[SenorSjon]

The same one as in F2. Iirc, you have to run at least 1-2 competitive laps on a compound, so not during SC's, before switching. F2 is also quite boring in that way. S-H or H-S. There is no almost no other tactic in the feature race. 

[NixxxoN]

Yes, I think mandatory 3 compound would be great

 

Watch this FIA regulated GT Sport world championship, the race is so exciting and strategy-wise is so varied and interesting.

 

The grand final begins at 2:09:00 mark

 

[SCUDmissile]

Applying another plaster to a gaping, necrotic wound, is it?

All we have to do is make it easier to follow. Reduce the delta required to overtake, make the cars a bit thinner and you won't need any of this.

If somebody is going slower, holding you up, just overtake them.

That should be the main goal.

They really should be working as hard as they can for 2021 to allow this.

That's the only issue.

No more gimmick rules to engineer some semblance of racing when the easy fix is there.

[Atreiu]

No.
There should be zero mandatory stops. Alllow more freedom with tyre use and let more drivers gamble on just not stopping:

[PayasYouRace]

Another way I’d do it would be to force all the teams to give back all their soft tyres after qualifying and race on whatever combination of hard and medium that they want (including running non-stop if they wish).

[PayasYouRace]

All kinds or wrong in that article. They don't want "unconventional" strategies, which basically means that the FIA now also wants to control which strategies a team uses; but what really caught my eye was the idea that if a driver has a puncture then the tyre change won't count towards his mandatory stops. What genius thought that one up?

Not the FIA. That’s Super Formula.

[w1Y]

Could you have teams have to nominate a tyre choice prior to the weekend and they only get that tyre to use. At some tracks some tyres would not be avaialble for selection if safety is a conceen. Teams then have to find a balance between qualy speed and race duravility

[PayasYouRace]

There always needs to be an option in case one compound turns out unsafe. That’s something you might only find out at the weekend. Extreme examples of this going wrong are Brazil 2003 (only intermediates. No full wets) and USA 2005 (majority of the grid cannot race safely).

[Rediscoveryx]

I also think that such a system (one compound per weekend) will make the races fairly dull in the early goings, as qualifying pace and initial race pace will be very similar. It might turn out interesting towards the end of the race, but I doubt that it would be an improvement over the current system. Perhaps it could be interesting if coupled with a "pit stop ban" (ie race on your current set of tyres til the end a la whatever year it was used), then it could make things interesting in the end, as those who qualified on softer rubber would have to nurse their cars to the finish while those who qualified on harder rubber could finish strong. But otherwise I don't think it would be an improvement to be honest. And the idea of no stops at all would itself be a bit too extreme in the other direction imo.

[Spillage]

I think there should be freedom to use only one compound. I actually think there shouldn't be a mandatory pitstop, and if they think they can stretch it our for the full race then they should be able to. Would keep the rule abour the top ten doing Q2 on their race tyres, though.

[maximilian]

To hell with artificial tire nonsense.  It has led nowhere.  Tires should be like they are in Formula E - NOT a topic at all.

[SCUDmissile]

I think there should be no limits to any tyre use, ideally.

Maybe keep the Q2 tyre for start rule, but apart from that.

[Claymore25]

2 mandatory pit stop is not the solution.

 

My thoughts:

 

Get rid of the Q2 rule.

Get rid of mandatory pit stop. If one driver wants to race in the hard compound, he should be allowed.

Get rid of the parc ferme rule.

Close the pit during the Safety Car. If a car has a problem, out of the race or using the white flag/black flag with orange circle.

Edited by Claymore25, 24 September 2019 - 12:15.

[ExEd]

I thought they banned the refueling so drivers wouldn’t just wait for others to pit and actually try that on track , if we are going to have at least 2 forced pit stops or up to 3 in some cases then might as well bring that back...
This back and forth is a joke tbh

[Tiakumosan]

I would go with:
- No mandatory pit stops;
- No Q2 rule;
- Big tyre delta.

Want to start on hards and nurse them through the whole race? Sure. Want to go fast with 3 sets of softs? Go for it.

Obviously we need tyres that don't overheat, don't stop working because of a small lock up and cars that can follow each other. Don't ask me how to achieve these, though.

[Thatfastguy]

That sounds like a very, very bad idea. Just another one of those superficial solutions that won't actually solve anything. The real rules that need to change pertain budgets and aero. 

 

Once those are fixed:

- No more DRS

- Scrap Q2 rule

- No more mandatory pitstops

- Allow refueling

- reintroduce t-car

- Make rock solid tyres. Tyre management shouldn't be something drivers have to worry about too much. 

[SenorSjon]

I thought they banned the refueling so drivers wouldn’t just wait for others to pit and actually try that on track , if we are going to have at least 2 forced pit stops or up to 3 in some cases then might as well bring that back...
This back and forth is a joke tbh

 

Bridgestone didn't want to haul unused tires across the globe, so they came up with this. The rule was never changed (although it used to be Q3 tire instead of Q2). When it was Q3 tire, the slowest 2-3 guys didn't even bother to set a lap in Q3. Then the teams in Q3 got a mandatory soft, otherwise those 7-10 guys wouldn't have any tires left to use.

[V8 Fireworks]

First off, i think Pirelli needs to be out of F1. 

 

  Pirelli has already been awarded the tender until 2023.

 

 

All kinds or wrong in that article.  They don't want "unconventional" strategies, which basically means that the FIA now also wants to control which strategies a team uses; but what really caught my eye was the idea that if a driver has a puncture then the tyre change won't count towards his mandatory stops.  What genius thought that one up?  

 

Super Formula is not run by the FIA. 

 

 

 

- Allow refueling

 

 

 

A retrograde step. No refuelling has created more tactical variations and differences in lap time.

 

Either 2 mandatory tyre pit stops, or 0 mandatory pitstops and try your luck on no stopping I say. 

 

No refuelling and no tyre stops would force overtakes to take place on the track. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 September 2019 - 15:08.

[Youichi]

Scrap the Q2 rule.

Scrap the 2 compound rule.

Scrap the all tyres must be the same compound rule.

Bring all 5 compounds to the circuit, and let each team choose what to run.

 

Let them run hards on the rears, super-soft on the left front, and hyper-soft on the right front, if they want. Let them design the car to have a rearward weight balance, so they have to run extra-hards on the rears and ultra softs on the front.

[pacificquay]

Scrap the 2 compound rule - if someone wants to non-stop on a set of hards, they should be able to

[F1Gui]

Monaco could do with 3 mandatory pit stops since it is always dull as dish water, well of course unless you happen to be there trackside.

The problem is mostly the tracks are rubbish for overtaking.

[HP]

IMO let's wait with all that tire juggling until the 18-inch tires arrive.

 

I do think Pirelli should just allow all compounds and let teams use what they want.

FIA has their say too, and insurance companies indirectly as well. ( tire pressure, etc )

[Otaku]

Poll result says it all

[Beamer]

Please no more artificial rules. Just decrease aero on the topside of the cars and replace it with some aero on the bottom (ie groundeffect)

[7MGTEsup]

Let them mix and match compounds on the car like they used to do so if you're left front limited you can run a harder compound on that corner and softer on the other 3 corners.

[Pete_f1]

Yeah, get good tyres, three compounds and make them use all three. There will be a few different strategies and the drivers can push