17 replies to this topic

[2F-001]

It is, I think, fairly well-known that when the ‘new’, shorter Spa-Francorchamps circuit opened in the late 70s, all of the corners on the new section of track were named after European cities, but later changed or largely ignored - although it is unclear when some were renamed, or when popular usage too hold.

In the latest issue of MotorSport there is an inset in Mark Hughes’s Belgian/Italian GP review dealing with Max V’s technique for dealing with the downhill left after ‘Rivage’ (or ‘Bruxelles’). The item takes pains to tell us, twice, that this left-hander is often erroneously called ‘No Name’ (Who does that? I do know a fair number of regular Spa-users refer to it colloquially as ‘Rivage 2’), and that it is actually called ‘Liege’… Really?

Some early maps of the ‘new’ circuit showed this corner as ‘Copenhagen’.
The circuit’s website now shows it as ‘Jacky Ickx’.
I don’t think it was ever ‘Liege’, was it?
Those same early maps showed Liege as the right-hander after the Fagnes section, and now labelled ‘Stavelot’ (which would surely be more fittingly applied to the faster right rejoining the old circuit - that one now being ‘Paul Frere’).

With all of that confusion, I can excuse folks for referring to the bends, unromantically, by number!

Edited by 2F-001, 26 September 2019 - 17:30.

[Ray Bell]

I hate corner numbers...

But to name the corners and retain those names for the life of the circuit, with the names usually to reference something present or near that corner.

Look at the names around Warwick Farm. Paddock Bend, near the paddock. Western Crossing, where the circuit first crossed the horse track. Homestead Corner, and there was the homestead, right there. Hume Straight was alongside the Hume Highway and Creek Corner was down by the creek. The Esses were definitely esses and then came the Northern Crossing. The next named corner was The Causeway and the circuit crossed the lake on a causeway, Polo Corner was around the edge of the Polo field and Leger corner near the Leger grandstand.

Simple and logical, never to be changed, everyone knew what everyone was talking about.

[Stephen W]

The thing about corner naming that really annoys me is when they sell off the name and then don't stick with it. Station Hairpin at Monaco comes to mind.

[2F-001]

I think the point there, Stephen, is that they are not so much selling the names as leasing them...! Not that the changes irk any less.

Drivers referring to corners by numbers (especially younger drivers who have a much shorter historical awarness of the venue) may stem from corners being labelled that way on the maps in their data logging.

 

(My reason for the opening post was really to suggest that Mark Hughes - if it was he - was wrong; but this broader discussion is potentially more useful - and could be more entertaining.)

Edited by 2F-001, 27 September 2019 - 09:16.

[PayasYouRace]

I've seen maps that show that Pouhon isn't called Pouhon anymore. It's just Double Gauche, which is clearly the most unimaginative name ever.

 

I think we all tend to stick with the names we learned when we first got into the sport (or when the circuit was new for the newer examples). For me, Spa will always be La Source-Eau Rouge-Raidillon-Kemmel-Les Combes-Malmedy-Rivage-(no name)-Pouhon-Les Fanges-Stavelot-Blanchimont-Bus Stop-Clubhouse.

 

Some circuits just add to the confusion. When it was called the A1-Ring, the first of the two left-handers in the infield was named Niki Lauda. When Red Bull took over the circuit they removed the name from that corner. When Niki died this year, they named the first corner after him.

 

Then look at Kyalami. When the "new" circuit was built, all the corner names changed. But when the circuit was renovated recently, all the classic names were restored, either to their original corners, or two the nearest ones on the new circuit to the originals.

 

https://www.racingci...africa/kyalami/

 

I know a lot of older fans who still use the pre-1970s names at Brands Hatch too, such as Bottom Bend and South Bank instead of Graham Hill and Surtees.

 

All still better than numbered turns, especially when you have something like Road America where the numbers don't even sequence properly.

[2F-001]

And I don’t know when I last heard anyone (other than, perhaps, myself!) refer to ‘Kidney’ at Brands Hatch.
- - - - - - - - -

 

For what it’s worth, here is what I have recorded as the original corner names for the ‘new’ Spa:

Bonn (Les Combes)
Bruxelles (Rivage)
    (‘Malmedy’ has also been seen used variously for the exit if Les Combes and for Rivage)
Copenhagen  (Jacky Ickx; Mark Hughes’s ‘No Name; ‘Rivage 2’)
Dublin-Londres. (Le Double Gauche; ‘Pouhon’)
Luxembourg-Paris-Rome  (Fagnes etc - but actual sequence unclear)
Liege  (Stavelot)
Le Raccordement  ('the link" - to the old circuit)  (Paul Frere)

Bruxelles seems to be the only city name that has survived on the circuit’s own maps.
All of those were, at the time, capital cities - except for Liege, which was appended to the point of the circuit furthest from Liege… not that the others displayed any particular geographical relevance, but you’d have thought that local one might have ‘fitted’, going by naming conventions used elsewhere.

Edited by 2F-001, 27 September 2019 - 09:45.

[BRG]

 - except for Liege, which was appended to the point of the circuit furthest from Liege…

As a matter of geographical pedantry, the corner furthest from Liege would probably be Les Combes?

[2F-001]

As the crow flies, or by road?      But yes, I should probably have looked at a map first...

Edited by 2F-001, 27 September 2019 - 10:03.

[dwh43scale]

I recall seeing No Name been referred to as Speakers Corner - apparently as it this the first time the commentator at Start / Finish sees the cars after going from sight. at Raidillon. I share merely for information, not as fact !

[2F-001]

Brilliant David... or should I say 'Brilleaux'?

[jee]

Nothing is worse than people calling Fagnes instead "Piff Paff"

[dwh43scale]

Brilliant David... or should I say 'Brilleaux'?

 

As you surmise, Brilleaux is just fine by me !

[Sterzo]

(My reason for the opening post was really to suggest that Mark Hughes - if it was he - was wrong; but this broader discussion is potentially more useful - and could be more entertaining.)

Definitely is entertaining. The serious question could probably be resolved by asking Mark Hughes about it on the Motor Sport website; he does engage with discussions. But I'd rather add to the outrage by pointing out that the cringeworthy attempts by Brands Hatch to rename each metre of the circuit with a driver's name, largely ignored, has led to Mike Hailwood being immortalised in the name of a shed-cum-cafe where the standard response is: "Sorry love, coffee's off." And they don't even serve kidneys.

Edited by Sterzo, 29 September 2019 - 10:57.

[mistakenplane]

Definitely is entertaining. The serious question could probably be resolved by asking Mark Hughes about it on the Motor Sport website; he does engage with discussions. But I'd rather add to the outrage by pointing out that the cringeworthy attempts by Brands Hatch to rename each metre of the circuit with a driver's name, largely ignored, has led to Mike Hailwood being immortalised in the name of a shed-cum-cafe where the standard response is: "Sorry love, coffee's off." And they don't even serve kidneys.

 I am certain I heard that Hailwood hill is named for a local farmer or something similar, rather than Mike. However I cannot find any evidence for this, so I could be making it up?!

[2F-001]

I don’t think I’d heard that before, though I’ve seen it claimed that ‘Hawthorn Bend’ is not named after Mike, but after a local feature, property or person.

From what I can recall, ‘Hailwood Hill’ (adjacent to the eponymous cafe) replaced Pilgrim’s Rise around the same time that other people’s names names came in to replace the original ones: Graham Hill Bend (Bottom Bend); Cooper Straight (Bottom Straight); Surtees (what was that called previously?); Derek Minter Straight (Portobello Straight); Clark Curve (previously just an extension of Clearways?); Brabham Straight and McLaren (Kidney).

[mistakenplane]

I don’t think I’d heard that before, though I’ve seen it claimed that ‘Hawthorn Bend’ is not named after Mike, but after a local feature, property or person.

From what I can recall, ‘Hailwood Hill’ (adjacent to the eponymous cafe) replaced Pilgrim’s Rise around the same time that other people’s names names came in to replace the original ones: Graham Hill Bend (Bottom Bend); Cooper Straight (Bottom Straight); Surtees (what was that called previously?); Derek Minter Straight (Portobello Straight); Clark Curve (previously just an extension of Clearways?); Brabham Straight and McLaren (Kidney).

 

You're probably right and I've confused it. Hawthorn I think was a local farmer. As well as Pilgrim's Rise, you don't often hear mention of Pilgrim's Drop these days. Surtees was called South Bank and also don't forget Sheene Curve (Dingle Dell Corner). The Brabham Straight was known as Top Straight.

[Sterzo]

Hawthorn was a tree or group of trees on the scrambles course which preceded the Grand Prix loop. Stirling's was named after the nearby Stirling's pig farm. Both names continued in use when tarmac was laid and the GP circuit opened in 1960. As 2F-001 says, there was a wholesale influx of driver names later on - Hailwood Hill, Graham Hill (ouch), Graham Hill Bend, Brabham Straight, Surtees Bend, Minter Straight, Sheene Bend, and Clark Curve.

 

As well as the misuse of names cited above at Spa, there is of course the frequent reference to Eau Rouge when people mean Raidillon.

[10kDA]

 

All still better than numbered turns, especially when you have something like Road America where the numbers don't even sequence properly.

Pretty sure some of the "corner" numbers at RA are based on the number of the flag station, not an actual change of direction on the track.