813 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

My personal view is I get that TOs are way too powerful to leave them alone but oh my goodness, the trouble they seem to cause. Context: it appears that Ferrari had a pre-race agreement to allow Vettel the slipstream at the start to protect the lead from Hamilton. Vettel’s position appears to be that as his start was so good, he didn’t need the protection and therefore won the place on its own merit.

 
And were Ferrari correct to retaliate by swapping them in the pits? (Presuming that this was part of the intent).

 

Discuss.

[jannyg]

Too messy. Just let them race

[goldenboy]

There's the sneaky vettel I remember lol.

Charles is whiny but vettel never had any intention of honouring his agreement. True colours.

The whole agreement was doomed from the beginning.

Edited by goldenboy, 29 September 2019 - 12:53.

[MikeV1987]

Fair enough if they made an arrangement but do it at a different time ffs. It was idiotic to try swap them so early especially when the car behind was slower.

[Massa]

No, respect the agreement whatever the outcome . " Nobody is greater than the team "

[kosmos]

If they had an agreement before the race, Vettel has to respect that regardless if he had a faster start than expected or not. He may have ruined Leclerc chances to win the race. The VSC probably ruined Leclerc's chances of win more anyway.

Edited by kosmos, 29 September 2019 - 12:50.

[mangeliiito]

Yes, because if he let Charles by at that point he would had Lewis up his tail.

[Requiem84]

Job done by Vettel. Leclerc will not obey any team order anymore.

[SCUDmissile]

Ferrari were too naive to trust their drivers to honour that agreement at the start. Do it later on.

[TomNokoe]

He was the faster Ferrari.

[barzini]

Binotto has lost it. Ferrari is a joke, cars running 1-2 (2nd car is slower) and on lap 3 there's a team order.

 

 

What a yoke.

[balage06]

Typical Ferrari. Getting way too political over nothing. Just let them race for f's sake...

[SilverArrow31]

Ferrari were just a mess this race and are only adding to the fireworks between their drivers rather than water them down, only going to get worse from here. There was no need to manufactor a Lerclerc undercut.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 29 September 2019 - 12:55.

[hollowstar]

He was not right to ignore them. He hasn't shown this year that he would be good enough to be this cocky/entitled. The best part of Vettel came back in Singapore, and the worst part of him was on display today.

[CountDooku]

I was saying to myself that you need to swap the positions early as there’s no guarantee you will be able to do so later in the race.
If Charles was leading he would probably have had a big enough gap to Lewis that he would have been out of his VSC window.

[Astandahl]

Yes he was faster.

[Clatter]

Yes. There may have been an agreement, but stupid to try and implement it at that time. It might have been possible if he was able to stay with SV, but he was simply the slower driver on the day and Ferrari should have reacted to that.

[Massa_f1]

Seb had a brilliant start and showed to be the faster driver in race conditions. No need to loose time and move over. Ferrari are stupid for considering such agreement between the two of them. Seb did the correct thing he would of been passed Charles at the start anyway with the start he had in my opinion.

[goldenboy]

Ferrari were too naive to trust their drivers to honour that agreement at the start. Do it later on.

Or just not at all. A simpleton could have foreseen this happening at any stage of the race.

[Muppetmad]

Was it a dumb agreement? Absolutely, yes. But if Vettel also thought it was dumb, he should have said so before the race. If you make an agreement, however dumb, you should honour it.

 

Ferrari should have seen this coming, though, and they have handled this terribly to the detriment of both of their drivers.

[Diablobb81]

They should have asked them to swap in the second stint if there was a 1-2. It's beyond idiotic to ask in lap 3.

If Seb wouldn't have swapped then he could get flak.

[jacdaniel]

Ferrari deserve what happened today.

[Andrew Hope]

"No good battle plan survives first contact with the enemy".

If you have a plan, and 30 seconds into the race circumstances have made that plan stupid to pursue, don't keep trying for that plan.

[l12mcg]

Yes, but not because Vet shouldn’t have been moved back.

The correct way to swap them was at the pit stops like they did. They would have got a 1-2 finish if it wasn’t for Vets car breaking.

Now there is a whole other argument about if that agreement Ferrari made with the drivers was smart or not - as it happens I think it seems fair enough, it secured the team a 1-2 where if Lec had wanted he could have made it a 1-3 or if he got it wrong a 2-3.

So he picked he’ll help the team and end up 2nd like he probably would have anyway but keeping the team 1-2.

But the right way to swap back was in the pits - Vet slamming on the breaks on the straights when the Mercs are only 2 seconds behind us crazy, Vet would have ended up 1 s behind Lec and that’s in DRS.

[PayasYouRace]

Voted don’t know/more complicated.

I see ignoring team orders as a pretty low action by a racing driver, but at the same time I expect team orders to be meaningful.

When I say meaningful I mean helping a championship contender when the other driver is out of it, or when two cars are on different strategies and would mess each other up otherwise. Issuing an order to maintain a pre#race agreement when neither driver is in championship contention is gratuitous.

In this case I don’t blame Vettel for ignoring them.

[PlayboyRacer]

He was the faster Ferrari.

See here is the thing, when do we see their pure pace without compromises? Charles was in dirty air and told (rightly) that they'll swap, things will come your way.

So why do you expect Charles to be sitting on his gearbox for the first 20 laps? For what? As we saw, things came to Charles nicely. Until the VSC ruined it all.

I want to see them race proper. No bullshit team orders, no swaps, no promises or whatever bullshit that later 'you'll benefit' Just go for it and race. Beat your teammate fair and square under whatever circumstances the race throws up.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 29 September 2019 - 13:02.

[Anja]

We're in no position to judge as we don't know the exact agreement etc. 

[TomNokoe]

See here is the thing, when do we see their pure pace without compromises? Charles was in dirty air and told (rightly) that they'll swap, things will come your way.

So why do you expect Charles to be sitting on his gearbox for the first 20 laps? For what? As we saw, things came to Charles nicely. Until the VSC ruined it all.

He was 4.5s behind. That's not dirty air.

[Marklar]

Was it a dumb agreement? Absolutely, yes. But if Vettel also thought it was dumb, he should have said so before the race. If you make an agreement, however dumb, you should honour it.

 

Ferrari should have seen this coming, though, and they have handled this terribly to the detriment of both of their drivers.

I dont disagree, but Leclerc couldnt shake Hamilton off, if Vettel let's him through chances are that Hamilton slips through both or gets in undercut range. IMO a driver should be a allowed to overrule a call that obviously is going to risk them the race.

Perhaps they should have discussed what would happen in that case.

[Jordan44]

A driver when they see a win in front of them is never going to comply. I don't blame Seb, they would all do it.

The fact that Ferrari thinks this sort of agreement could work however is just mind blowing

It's racing, you can't script it.

Edited by Jordan44, 29 September 2019 - 13:01.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Felt sorry for Vettel. My view is, it was agreed to make up for Leclerc’s lost win in Singapore. Nice karma though that they lost the win due to Vettel retiring.

[THEWALL]

He didn't ignore them. He just waited for them to swap during the pit stop to make it safer.

[Grayson]

No.

It’s one thing to ignore team orders. It’s another thing to enjoy the team orders which benefit you and to ignore the ones that don’t, especially in the same race.

This is Multi 21 all over again.

[Ickx]

Fair to swap in pits. Would have been fair to let Leclerc past too but Lewis was too close and Leclerc did not keep up with Vettel on track. 

[Shuffle]

Voted no.

 

its amazing that a team with this much history at implementing team orders, is so poor at actually using them.

[PlayboyRacer]

He was 4.5s behind. That's not dirty air.

Dude - Charles was told from the beginning, your ending up ahead. Chill and do the race.

You then expect him to drive the wheels off the thing? What for? Lol

When Vettel retired, where was Charles? Yep. My point is they are being given reasons to not race proper. I don't want to see that.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 29 September 2019 - 13:07.

[ARTGP]

A driver when they see a win in front of them is never going to comply. I don't blame Seb, they would all do it.

The fact that Ferrari thinks this sort of agreement could work however is just mind blowing

It's racing, you can't script it.

 

Unless you are Valterri....

[LightningMcQueen]

Leclerk was no where near fast enough, what was he 4 seconds behind.. ? No way I’d have given that position back

[Lights]

An agreement to "allow Vettel the slipstream". 

Ha, what was Leclerc going to do about it? Vettel was always going to have the slipstream. This is a great circuit to start from P3, as Bottas also showed 2 years ago, especially when P2 starts on mediums. Vettel was always going to be ahead braking into T1.

 

Dumb of Ferrari to set this up.

Dumb of Vettel to then not honor it if he willingly agree on it

[Spillage]

Went for option 3. I guess if he agreed to the arrangement then he should stick to it. But on the other hand he was clearly the quicker Ferrari and the agreement was dumb to begin with.

[ebc]

No need for team orders in the first place, Vettel had Leclerc in turn 1 whatever. Seb was the faster driver and deserves to fight for the win, for ferrari to screw there own driver like that pisses me off, there was no point in doing it at all.

All the have done is pitted their drivers against each other, which could bite them on the ass in the future.

[Requiem84]

Why did Vettel got P1 at the start?

Because Leclerc did not defend at all into P1! That obviously was the agreement: Leclerc should make life easy for Vettel going towards T1 so that he could take Hamilton.

Basically letting Vettel by and then being screwed over by dirty Vettel...

[Ickx]

See here is the thing, when do we see their pure pace without compromises? Charles was in dirty air and told (rightly) that they'll swap, things will come your way.

So why do you expect Charles to be sitting on his gearbox for the first 20 laps? For what? As we saw, things came to Charles nicely. Until the VSC ruined it all.

I want to see them race proper. No bullshit team orders, no swaps, no promises or whatever bullshit that later 'you'll benefit' Just go for it and race. Beat your teammate fair and square under whatever circumstances the race throws up.

Is it really a good option to slow down one driver several seconds and put him in a position where Hamilton will be in striking distance though? In the beginning of the race the driver that is supposed to be let through at least needs to be in blue flag window for a swat to make sense. 

[pRy]

If the team agreed that Le Clerc would help Vettel get the lead and then switch to ensure a 1-2 then yes, he was in the wrong. And Vettel's team radio messages suggest that with his "He needs to get closer to me so we can do it safely" type radio messages. 

 

However the team was wrong to even attempt such tactics and enter into such an agreement.

[whitewaterMkII]

Not a fan of team orders, but in this case it seems it cost Ferrari a win in hindsight.

[BuddyHolly]

Personally I'm strongly against team orders unless its like the last 2 races of the season and even then I'm not a fan of it.

 

Seems with some around here though team orders for Ferrari is very bad but team orders for Mercedes is totally fine. 

[Massa]

An agreement to "allow Vettel the slipstream".

Ha, what was Leclerc going to do about it? Vettel was always going to have the slipstream. This is a great circuit to start from P3, as Bottas also showed 2 years ago, especially when P2 starts on mediums. Vettel was always going to be ahead braking into T1.

Dumb of Ferrari to set this up.
Dumb of Vettel to then not honor it if he willingly agree on it

Fully agree with you.

It was a dumb agreement but Vettel had to honour it

[gramsy1977]

An agreement to "allow Vettel the slipstream".

Ha, what was Leclerc going to do about it? Vettel was always going to have the slipstream. This is a great circuit to start from P3, as Bottas also showed 2 years ago, especially when P2 starts on mediums. Vettel was always going to be ahead braking into T1.

Dumb of Ferrari to set this up.
Dumb of Vettel to then not honor it if he willingly agree on it

"Ha, what was Leclerc going to do about it?"
He would move right and close the inside and of course fight for his position. It's obvious he never did that because of the agreement. And something else. Was Vettel ordered to "park" or "pit" the car?

[apoka]

We do not even know exactly what the agreement was.

 

If anyone can learn from this, then probably its Ferrari.

 

It's just very hard to set up those things. If you rewatch the start a few times, it's really unclear whether there was any defense for LeClerc against Vettel as the pace difference was high.

 

The other issue is the swap itself - it costs time for the leader and is risky to execute.

[goldenboy]

No.

It’s one thing to ignore team orders. It’s another thing to enjoy the team orders which benefit you and to ignore the ones that don’t, especially in the same race.

This is Multi 21 all over again.

Yep. It's not even team orders, but a team arrangement that he was a willing party to.

Edited by goldenboy, 29 September 2019 - 13:11.