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Was Vettel right to ignore TOs in Russia 2019?


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Poll: Russia GP Ferrari TOs (421 member(s) have cast votes)

Was Vettel right to ignore team orders

  1. Yes (211 votes [50.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.12%

  2. No (134 votes [31.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.83%

  3. Don’t know/depends/it’s more complicated than that (76 votes [18.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.05%

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#51 goldenboy

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:10

No.

It’s one thing to ignore team orders. It’s another thing to enjoy the team orders which benefit you and to ignore the ones that don’t, especially in the same race.

This is Multi 21 all over again.

Yep. It's not even team orders, but a team arrangement that he was a willing party to.

Edited by goldenboy, 29 September 2019 - 13:11.


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#52 AlcidioG

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:11

Voted no.

 

its amazing that a team with this much history at implementing team orders, is so poor at actually using them.

 


Using TOs is easy when you have a clear #1 driver... Right now there's obviously a fight going on as to who should be #1. Imho it should Leclerc going forward, but I cab understand Vettel not wanting to give it up.

#53 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:11

Why did Vettel got P1 at the start?

Because Leclerc did not defend at all into P1! That obviously was the agreement: Leclerc should make life easy for Vettel going towards T1 so that he could take Hamilton.

Basically letting Vettel by and then being screwed over by dirty Vettel...


Vettel is dirty for being faster? Why do you even watch motorsport?

#54 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:11

This one is complicated. I understand that Charles reneged on an arrangement in Monza that could have seen Vettel challenge him for pole (and then the race). This is a big, big problem with these kind of arrangements. How does a team punish its own driver? They will (nearly) always find a reason not to do it. So, you can see why the temptation is there for the driver to simply pocket all the benefits and then ignore the obligations. They are internal team matters, not breaches of the rules of motorsport. 

 

There is a rich history of team orders going wrong in F1. All racing decisions need to be context dependent, and "handing back the place" is very dependent on track position of the two team-mates but also the competitors.

 

There also should be a fair opportunity for Vettel to try to win once he was in second position, or was that part of the deal? Was Leclerc supposed to allow Vettel into second in exchange for then not being challenged at all? That would be very murky, given that no championship is at stake.



#55 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:11

Dude - Charles was told from the beginning, your ending up ahead. Chill and do the race.

You then expect him to drive the wheels off the thing? What for? Lol

When Vettel retired, where was Charles? Yep. My point is they are being given reasons to not race proper. I don't want to see that.

 


I expected him to drive the wheels off to ensure there was a decent gap to the Mercs, should have been no more than 2 secs off of Vettel. The only reason he didn't was because he couldn't.

#56 Wolbo

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:12

Not a fan of team orders, but in this case it seems it cost Ferrari a win in hindsight.

Beautiful karma.



#57 goldenboy

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:13

Vettel is dirty for being faster? Why do you even watch motorsport?

He's dirty for basically tricking charles and ferrari into not defending on the opening lap and welching on his agreement.

#58 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:13


I expected him to drive the wheels off to ensure there was a decent gap to the Mercs, should have been no more than 2 secs off of Vettel. The only reason he didn't was because he couldn't.

And what would have it changed? What changed his race was the VSC, not dropping back 4.5 secs in 20 laps in the first stint.

#59 Requiem84

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:13

Vettel is dirty for being faster? Why do you even watch motorsport?


They agreed upfront that Lc would help him with the slipstream, but that they would give the place back after the start.

Lc honored his part of the deal. Dirty Vettel pulled another Multi 21, because it’s deep in his character to do everything for the win. He cannot be trusted in these situations.

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#60 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:14

He's dirty for basically tricking charles and ferrari into not defending on the opening lap and welching on his agreement.


So basically he’s dirty for getting a better start and being faster. Ok.

#61 Afterburner

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:14

Vettel should’ve pulled right over just to show how stupid an order that actually was given how slow Leclerc was going...

#62 Gorma

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:15

There was no point in switching positions after the start... 



#63 Diablobb81

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:15

They agreed upfront that Lc would help him with the slipstream, but that they would give the place back after the start.

Lc honored his part of the deal. Dirty Vettel pulled another Multi 21, because it’s deep in his character to do everything for the win. He cannot be trusted in these situations.


So Charles agreed to follow the laws of aerodynamics?

Seb was past Lewis before any slipstream.

#64 goldenboy

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:16

So basically he’s dirty for getting a better start and being faster. Ok.

Nope. That's not at all what i said, and you are aware of that.

#65 cheekybru

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:16

As usual with F1 teams the could have easily planned any team orders they wanted before the race, but ended up doing it in embarrassingly in public and there is a good argument that it cost them the race

Breeds bad feelings and mistrust for the drivers and the crews,so for me it is another big own goal by the reds

Edited by cheekybru, 29 September 2019 - 13:19.


#66 NickeF1

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:17

As we know that Vettel has ignored agreements before, it must come as no surprise that he does it again. I believe that Leclerc will from now on race for himself, not “for the good of the team” because the team has screwed him over two times now.

#67 Marklar

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:17

If the team agreed that Le Clerc would help Vettel get the lead and then switch to ensure a 1-2 then yes, he was in the wrong. And Vettel's team radio messages suggest that with his "He needs to get closer to me so we can do it safely" type radio messages. 

 

However the team was wrong to even attempt such tactics and enter into such an agreement.

I dont even get why.

Mercedes did the same last year: Bottas gave Hamilton the slipstream to protect him from Vettel, but he didnt passed him, so obviously giving somebody the tow (well if you dont give it to one somebody else will take it) doesnt automatically mean it's over. And mind, this was the race where Mercedes later swapped them around for the championship.

The argument that Leclerc didnt defend into T1 seems also silly. Why would you even agree to not defending yourself?!



#68 Shade

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:17

My view is that the car that is currently the faster of the 2, should be ahead. So It was good that Seb stayed in front. (if another Germany 2018 had happened, where the car behind was held up I would be angry)


Edited by Shade, 29 September 2019 - 17:32.


#69 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:17

Nope. That's not at all what i said, and you are aware of that.

That’s what it sounds like because the logic behind the call to swap so early is complete nonsense.

#70 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:18

And what would have it changed? What changed his race was the VSC, not dropping back 4.5 secs in 20 laps in the first stint.

 


Dropping back put him 2+ seconds closer to Hamilton, made Mercs job even easier.

#71 jjcale

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:18

There's the sneaky vettel I remember lol.

Charles is whiny but vettel never had any intention of honouring his agreement. True colours.

The whole agreement was doomed from the beginning.

 

I think he might have genuinely agreed before the race .... but he seems to become a completely different person once he is in the cockpit. 



#72 Lights

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:19

"Ha, what was Leclerc going to do about it?"
He would move right and close the inside and of course fight for his position. It's obvious he never did that because of the agreement. 

 

The slipstream & sling effect was so strong that Vettel would've also made it work on the outside. 



#73 barzini

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:20

As we know that Vettel has ignored agreements before, it must come as no surprise that he does it again. I believe that Leclerc will from now on race for himself, not “for the good of the team” because the team has screwed him over two times now.

 

How was Charles screwed over? The team gave him, the slower driver, the swap via pitstops. I wouldn't call that "screwing him over".



#74 jjcale

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:20

As we know that Vettel has ignored agreements before, it must come as no surprise that he does it again. I believe that Leclerc will from now on race for himself, not “for the good of the team” because the team has screwed him over two times now.

 

Probably he will keep being "loyal" and build up his chips in the team ... surely next year CL will be the lead driver as it is painfully obvious that he is already a better driver than SV ... and the gap between them will only grow in the future. 



#75 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:20

Leclerc should have covered the inside line......so Vettel was right ignore the order......



#76 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:21

Dropping back put him 2+ seconds closer to Hamilton, made Mercs job even easier.

Mercs job was done with the VSC. Leclerc was in the perfect position after the first stint. He followed the team again and, unlike last week, was positioned for the win.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 29 September 2019 - 13:21.


#77 Requiem84

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:21

So basically he’s dirty for getting a better start and being faster. Ok.


Leclerc left the door wide open, because thats what they agreed.

#78 Mark521

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:22

Well, I guess that's the last time we'll see Leclerc give a tow to Vettel.  Leclerc didn't try to block or break the tow as he thought he would get the place back.

I understand Ferrari's intent but I don't think you can map out all of the possible "do the first part of the plan but not the second part" to the drivers and keep them happy.



#79 Celloman

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:22

So Charles agreed to follow the laws of aerodynamics?

No, he agreed to not change his line and move to the inside, which normally every sane driver would have done for turn one. If you leave the inside open, it's game over automatically.



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#80 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:22

Probably he will keep being "loyal" and build up his chips in the team ... surely next year CL will be the lead driver as it is painfully obvious that he is already a better driver than SV ... and the gap between them will only grow in the future. 

 


He wasn't the better driver today though.

#81 DarthWillie

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:22

I've seen Hamilton ignore teamorders, i've seen Max ingore teamorders Leclerc ingored orders in Monza, the list will go on. These guys don't like teamorders. Altough I do not agree Vettel ignored teamorders. As was communicated to Charles, it was risky with Lewis, they said they would swap later.  And they did. And I do believe Vettel would have let him past, late in the race to really show he was the quicker one.


Edited by DarthWillie, 29 September 2019 - 13:24.


#82 Lights

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:23

The argument that Leclerc didnt defend into T1 seems also silly. Why would you even agree to not defending yourself?!

 

Well the idea behind that was probably to not risk throwing away the 1-2 at the start by them fighting each other into T1 and going wide and/or hitting each other. 

 

But they could've also agreed that Vettel gets Leclerc's slipstream but agrees to not overtake. But even an agreement like that seems a bit silly.



#83 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:23

Leclerc left the door wide open, because thats what they agreed.


But why would you tell your faster driver to slow down and let by the slower driver especially when Merc are so close. How the hell does anybody rationalize this?

#84 EndlessMotion

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:23

For some reason way back when we had the whole multi 21 episode I really felt Vettel wasn't being a good enough team player in that instance and should have held station.

 

Today felt a lot different. They may well have had an agreement before hand but Vettel's start was SO much better than Charles', the slipsteam he got was secondary to the start he made in terms of what gave him the lead. Then adding on top of that he had the better race pace to Leclerc making a gap whilst Hamilton was just about hanging onto them on slower tyres, it seemed crazy for them to be trying to engineer the swap so early on and was clearly distracting Charles early on in the race.

 

All of that together for me makes the pre race agreement redundant and you just have to get back to the reality of the situation and go racing.



#85 Celloman

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:23

Leclerc should have covered the inside line......so Vettel was right ignore the order......

Ehm, guess why Leclerc didn't cover the inside line?



#86 Tsarwash

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:24

I missed the start of the race, so only know what happened by proxy. But these kind of team orders become stupid if you are ordering the faster car to let the slower car ahead. (I think that this is what happened.) But one thing is for sure, Leclerc is not going to be that willing to follow this sort of plan in the future. I don't mind team orders if the two cars are on a different strategy, or one is obviously holding the other up, or even if one is far ahead of the other in the Championship, but they appeared to be foolish in this instance.  



#87 Wolbo

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:24

But why would you tell your faster driver to slow down and let by the slower driver especially when Merc are so close. How the hell does anybody rationalize this?

It is clear that Ferrari wanted Leclerc to win this race.



#88 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:24

Mercs job was done with the VSC. Leclerc was in the perfect position after the first stint. He followed the team again and, unlike last week, was positioned for the win.

 


That's hindsight though, and being so slow he was within range of the Mercs, who would have been on the faster tyre at the end. He was slow today, and I think Vettel would have retaken the place on track.

#89 Chmielinski

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:25

Yes. I don't understand the whole agreement thing. Who did they have the agreement with? Physics? Yeah, the car behind will get a slipstream and probably pass the leader. Next race they might find out that turning the steering wheel turn the wheels to allow the car to take turns.



#90 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:25

It is clear that Ferrari wanted Leclerc to win this race.


They engineered the swap perfectly in the pits. Fair enough. But it’s still not an excuse for the early call to swap on track.

#91 goldenboy

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:26

The very public lessons for young Charles just keep on coming lol.

Guess there's never another agreement happening anytime soon.

Vettel was fast today, but I think he has done some big damage to his reputation inside the team that may affect him in the future. Hope it was worth it Seb...

#92 Lights

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:27

Vettel's start was SO much better than Charles', the slipsteam he got was secondary to the start he made in terms of what gave him the lead. 

 

Vettel's start wasn't better at all. The difference was purely slipstream.



#93 Klauzer

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:27

Yes, but not because Vet shouldn’t have been moved back.

The correct way to swap them was at the pit stops like they did. They would have got a 1-2 finish if it wasn’t for Vets car breaking.
 

 

The delayed pit where Ferrari left Vettel on his softs for far too long was literal sabotage against their own driver - just because Leclerc felt he had the right to the race win & lead, which he didn't. They blew Vettel's 4 second cushion for no reason other than bizarre internal politics at a time when Mercedes were still a threat in the race. It was demented. 

 

Today was also the first time I've seen Vettel get inside Leclerc's head, i.e. with his whinging on the radio when he should have been pulling a gap on Hamilton. Not good at all. 



#94 goldenboy

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:28

For some reason way back when we had the whole multi 21 episode I really felt Vettel wasn't being a good enough team player in that instance and should have held station.

Today felt a lot different. They may well have had an agreement before hand but Vettel's start was SO much better than Charles', the slipsteam he got was secondary to the start he made in terms of what gave him the lead. Then adding on top of that he had the better race pace to Leclerc making a gap whilst Hamilton was just about hanging onto them on slower tyres, it seemed crazy for them to be trying to engineer the swap so early on and was clearly distracting Charles early on in the race.

All of that together for me makes the pre race agreement redundant and you just have to get back to the reality of the situation and go racing.

Then he shouldn't have agreed for Charles to not defend to begin with.

#95 timmy bolt

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:28

It all depends on what the agreement was before the start.

if Leclerc and vettel entered into it voluntarily then sure, vettel should have prepared at some point to give up the place.

If the drivers weren't bothered and it was a Ferrari instruction then I agree that seb. You're basically telling seb he can't take the best and prob only opportunity to win the race. There was no way Leclerc would have kept 1st / the lead over vet with the starts vettel and Hamilton got.

#96 Celloman

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:28

But why would you tell your faster driver to slow down and let by the slower driver especially when Merc are so close. How the hell does anybody rationalize this?

Because it was agreed upon before the race, simple as that. They wanted to maximize their chances into the first corner and protect against Mercedes, so they decided Leclerc wouldn't defend against Vettel and would get the place back later if overtaken. People can disagree if it's good racing to do this, but it sure was a rational thing if it was agreed upon before the race.



#97 Requiem84

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:29

But why would you tell your faster driver to slow down and let by the slower driver especially when Merc are so close. How the hell does anybody rationalize this?


How unfair is it when you leave your team mate through because you agreed to get the place back, and then your team mare laughs at you and says: ‘Silly boy, did you really think I would give this place back?’

You would be like ‘ok, no problem bro?’

#98 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:29


That's hindsight though, and being so slow he was within range of the Mercs, who would have been on the faster tyre at the end. He was slow today, and I think Vettel would have retaken the place on track.

Hold on - when Vettel came out of the pits, Charles was ahead. And pulling away. Then Seb retired almost immediately.

Firstly - your assuming Charles was no faster than in the first stint. Which isn't likely accurate. Secondly your also assuming Vettel would have caught him and passed him, knowing fully well they wanted a 1-2 and Charles was the driver ahead at that point.

#99 Klauzer

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:31

Hold on - when Vettel came out of the pits, Charles was ahead. And pulling away. Then Seb retired almost immediately.

Firstly - your assuming Charles was no faster than in the first stint. Which isn't likely accurate. Secondly your also assuming Vettel would have caught him and passed him, knowing fully well they wanted a 1-2 and Charles was the driver ahead at that point.

 

Leclerc was only ahead after the pits because Ferrari sabotaged Vettel by leaving him out for far too long in order to swap positions in the pits. With Merc just behind, that was mad. 



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#100 apoka

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:31

LeClerc in the interview now said that they just delayed the TO, so maybe it should be "delay TOs" rather than "ignore TOs" in the title.

 

Binotto said in the interview "LeClerc did not give the tow to Vettel, but he just took it, which then leaves room for interpretation." Well, that's one of the difficulties of those agreements (beyond many which were mentioned already) - there is almost always such a gray zone.