248 replies to this topic

[JHSingo]

On the Sky coverage, Paul di Resta argued that the pits should be closed when a virtual safety car is used. It would seem to make sense - the VSC is supposed to neutralise the race, but it seems to have the unfortunate habit of giving an advantage to those who pit during that time, as we saw today and have seen in previous occasions.

 

What do you think? Is it an unfair advantage, and should the pits be closed to prevent it? Or, is it really not much different to what happens during a full safety car?

[Tsarwash]

It depends on how much time the drivers could lose if their tyres have fully fallen of the cliff. Is that as much as 40% of pace ? 

[PedroDiCasttro]

I think F1 should copy IndyCar when it comes to safety car regulations, period.

[Marklar]

It opens too many loopholes for "mechanical issues"

 

I think it's part of the game to have variables like this.

Edited by Marklar, 29 September 2019 - 13:28.

[TomNokoe]

To help the show, yes. But what about full SCs?

[noikeee]

I'm leaning towards yes, but there has to be an exception for any car damaged or a car with the tyres about to blow up etc. And then every team will argue their tyres are so bad they're about to blow up.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Aye, having them open during is just too much of a gain since the gaps are maintained via Deltas. With an actual SC you at least have the chance to overtake but with VSC you just loose a massive chunk of time.

Edited by pitlanepalpatine, 29 September 2019 - 13:30.

[goldenboy]

I don't mind it how it is.

[KLF1F]

How about having sprinklers in the pit lane and turning them on during (V)SC periods?

[Clatter]

Always the same when someones prefer driver loses out, but you don't hear a word when they gain.

[Massa]

Of course

[PayasYouRace]

Another option would be to have 20s added to the delta for driver who pit under VSC.

[Kev00]

They should bring in a rule that if cars want to pit under SC or Virtual SC they must serve an immediate 10 second time penalty. So if a car pits, it must sit stationary for 10 seconds before the team can work on it. That would probably put the pitting car at a slight disadvantage on most circuits.

[rodlamas]

Ferrari fans complaining about their implosion. Nothins unusual.

[jee]

Add a time penalty for which mechanics are not allowed to touch the car after it has stopped.

[cheekybru]

Option 3 - Whichever benefits the driver I support at the time

[PayasYouRace]

Not every discussion is prompted by bitter anti-fans. These are discussions worth having. If you don’t want to join in don’t.

[peggle]

didn't see a thread like this when Vettel benefited from the VSC, thats racing and i see no reason to change it because Ferrari lost out

[Clatter]

Not every discussion is prompted by bitter anti-fans. These are discussions worth having. If you don’t want to join in don’t.

 

The discussion is fine, but lets not pretend its not because of bitter fans.

[Massa]

Ferrari fans complaining about their implosion. Nothins unusual.

Something is wrong with you ?

[Lights]

They should fix the core of this issue, namely that too often VSC's are called because of a stranded car next to the track. They should design marshal area's in a way that drivers can retire their car safely.

 

Vettel said post-race that he was surprised that there was a VSC called because he couldn't have parked his car better than he did.

[Tsarwash]

Adding a ten second stop and go, might be the way forward. I'm not a bitter fan whatsoever. I do understand people getting annoyed about a potential race win lost purely because of chance. 

[Marklar]

They should bring in a rule that if cars want to pit under SC or Virtual SC they must serve an immediate 10 second time penalty. So if a car pits, it must sit stationary for 10 seconds before the team can work on it. That would probably put the pitting car at a slight disadvantage on most circuits.

Or maybe they should reduce the pit speed limit during VSC, e.g. 40 instead of 80. I dont know how much that would affect things, but they could probably adjust it from race-to-race basis

[Bliman]

Let them race. I would rather see that the gaps stay the same when there is a Virtual safety car. The pitstops during virtual safety car are part of the race and luck that you need to have when you race.

[DN5]

I prefere Endurance racing keeping the pit lane closed and penalising anyone who pits

[screamingV16]

Does anyone have a link to the thread/poll regarding the VSC during the 2018 Australian GP? I did a search, but could only find this https://forums.autos.../?hl= vsc poll

[Kalmake]

Pit lane speed limit could be lowered so it's no advantage compared to pitting on green.

[P123]

No, but drivers should not be able to floor it on pitlane entry and exit whilst those on track have to follow the VSC delta... which is what allowed Vettel victory in Oz a couple of years back.

Closing the pitlane is short-sighted, as the VSC usually involves an incident of some sort, which may require a car to pit for repairs.

[djparky]

I think F1 should copy IndyCar when it comes to safety car regulations, period.

Whilst I dont disagree that approach also causes its issues, when it happens it usually leads to complaints

[P123]

I think F1 should copy IndyCar when it comes to safety car regulations, period.

Good grief- adopt the absolute worst element of Indycar? No thanks.

[ANF]

Yes, I think the pits should be closed under SC and VSC. I'm guessing that it could encourage teams to stops earlier and switch to alternative strategies (there would be little benefit to stay out longer if you can't pit under the SC and gain time) – and I'm pretty sure it would be very good for safety (with the pits open, overtaking behind the SC is allowed via the pit lane, and therefore drivers are often racing within the allowed SC times when, really, all they should be thinking about is slowing the hell down and looking out for marshals, debris, etc).

[Klauzer]

No. A safety car is always going to be unjust, that's just the nature of the sport. Scenario B: what happens to a car about to pit for tyres when the safety car comes out & he's on dead rubber after building a healthy gap to the car behind (which for argument sake has also already pitted)? No tyre change means he's screwed & his lead is destroyed. 

 

So banning tyre changes under a VSC or SC is like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, i.e. pointlessly creating a new problem in order to solve a current one. Unjust strategy calls & changes to race dynamics/leaders under a SC is just not fixable & never has been. 

[P123]

Yes, I think the pits should be closed under SC and VSC. I'm guessing that it could encourage teams to stops earlier and switch to alternative strategies (there would be little benefit to stay out longer if you can't pit under the SC and gain time) – and I'm pretty sure it would be very good for safety (with the pits open, overtaking behind the SC is allowed via the pit lane, and therefore drivers are often racing within the allowed SC times when, really, all they should be thinking about is slowing the hell down and looking out for marshals, debris, etc).

As soon as VSC or SC is called they have to slow with no passing, so that danger is managed (generally). The main issue is that once in the pitlane (which isn't just the speed limit bit) the drivers don't have to adhere to the VSC delta. That is where time is gained. If you are against artificiality, then closing the pitlane is a guarantee of that. Ruins many a good race in Indycar. If they could find a way to still measure the VSC delta on entry and exit to the pitlane then there would be no issue.

[timmy bolt]

Could mitigate vsc pitting benefit by having a minimum pitstop time period that matches the gain, so Sochi would be about 8 seconds instead of the usual 3ish (if I remember correctly). Would largely correct the vsc issue.

[PayasYouRace]

We have the technology in place now to actually reset the gaps after a SC or VSC anyway: The delta times. On the lap to green, each driver can be given a delta that would see them crossing the line with the gaps they had prior to the caution.

[P123]

Another option would be to have 20s added to the delta for driver who pit under VSC.

Why?

[Jordan44]

To help the show, yes. But what about full SCs?

In what way does making F1 even more predictable help the show.

Leave it.

[screamingV16]

Another option would be to have 20s added to the delta for driver who pit under VSC.

Does a driver currently gain 20 seconds when pitting under VSC?

[PayasYouRace]

Why?

To simulate pitting under the green flag. You’d end up where you would have been if you pitted under green instead of taking advantage of the rest of the field going slowly. You could pit on your original strategy if you wanted so no need to close the pits. But the race would be truly neutralised during what is supposed to be a safety phase.

[TomNokoe]

In what way does making F1 even more predictable help the show.

Leave it.

We would've had a better race today without VSC.

[PayasYouRace]

Does a driver currently gain 20 seconds when pitting under VSC?

No. You lose 20s or so when you put under green, so this way you’d lose the same when putting under VSC. It wouldn’t be in addition to your stop. Just that your stop would activate the time loss equivalent to putting under green.

[Clatter]

We would've had a better race today without VSC.

 

Better race or better result? I think the racing would have looked pretty much the same, just cars in a different order.

[Paco]

VSC yes. Full safety car, no.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Yes, I think that pits should be closed under VSC.  If a car just has to pit, because of mechanical issues, then it should serve a time-out before work begins, which should be a little longer than the expected advantage.  This still won't capture cases where VSC isn't called immediately, so teams can anticipate it, but it should be much better than it is currently.

[Marklar]

No. You lose 20s or so when you put under green, so this way you’d lose the same when putting under VSC. It wouldn’t be in addition to your stop. Just that your stop would activate the time loss equivalent to putting under green.

the gain under VSC is 6-10 seconds depending on track, not 20

[Dmitriy_Guller]

As soon as VSC or SC is called they have to slow with no passing, so that danger is managed (generally). The main issue is that once in the pitlane (which isn't just the speed limit bit) the drivers don't have to adhere to the VSC delta. That is where time is gained. If you are against artificiality, then closing the pitlane is a guarantee of that. Ruins many a good race in Indycar. If they could find a way to still measure the VSC delta on entry and exit to the pitlane then there would be no issue.

Closing the pit lane ruins a race if there is bunching up, as there is under a SC.  That's not an issue for VSC.  That's why I think pits should be open during SC and closed during VSC. 

[Clatter]

VSC yes. Full safety car, no.

 

Whats the difference?

[P123]

To simulate pitting under the green flag. You’d end up where you would have been if you pitted under green instead of taking advantage of the rest of the field going slowly. You could pit on your original strategy if you wanted so no need to close the pits. But the race would be truly neutralised during what is supposed to be a safety phase.

The most gained seems to be 6/7s, depending on track, so 20s is a bit draconian, and good luck explaining that to the outside world. It was bad enough a decade ago. The most sensible way of rectifying any apparent disadvantage for those on tack vs those pitting would be to ensure entering and exiting the pitlane is also covered by VSC deltas, which it isn't currently. Things like closing the pitlane is only screwing those who have still to stop and are either having it delayed, or having to do so once the field has been bunched up. Therefore shutting the pitlane is not a solution to anything. You would still have winners and losers through nothing but chance. I do suspect the 29+ voting 'yes' are largely disgruntled folks at the result today, because it doesn't resolve the problem they are apparently arguing against.

[Clatter]

Closing the pit lane ruins a race if there is bunching up, as there is under a SC.  That's not an issue for VSC.  That's why I think pits should be open during SC and closed during VSC. 

 

Same advantage can be gained pitting under the SC as the VSC though. Any pitting normally happens before the cars are bunched up. Even today Ferrari delayed putting LeClerc back onto the softs during the SC for 1 or 2 laps and the pack still hadn't bunched up meaning he only lost one position.

[P123]

Closing the pit lane ruins a race if there is bunching up, as there is under a SC.  That's not an issue for VSC.  That's why I think pits should be open during SC and closed during VSC.

There is still time to be gained and lost, depending where a driver is on track when a VSC is called... so for ultimate fairness we get to scrapping the VSC and just using SC. But there are winners and losers there too. It can be improved, but there is always likely to be a winner and a loser.