17 replies to this topic

[smokindav]

When or how often do the top teams change engines? After practice? After qualifying? After they blow up? Or do they simply swap them after so many miles have been run?

Thanks,

Dave

[Keith Young]

I know they reuse parts, and keep track of how much work they've done. I remember hearing how long the engines, and parts last, but that was a while ago and I forgot. I remember being a bit suprised though.

[Matt Davis]

Exactly what each team does varys but, they would probibaly change engine after testing before qualifying (to a more finley tuned engine) and then use the testing engine again for the race. Unless they are suspicous about any part of the engine where they may change it straight away, (load's of smoke coming out the exaust is often a give away).
One back at the factory the engine is striped down, many of the part would be thrown straight in the bin (all the screws and washers and stuff) any salvageable parts are then tested to see if they have been put under tomuch stress, using ultrasound you can detect very small cracks in a object that are not visibal from the outside.
I hope this helps (and I may be wrong but hopefully if I am someone will correct me)

[MrAerodynamicist]

My information is that they're very wasteful - a combination of modern pressure not to fail and budgets means that they will more often than not just chuck parts. They might spend five quid on a small screw but they're use it once and chuck it!

[Richard Border]

I read that Ferrari gets 1600k on heads before the throw them away. My understanding is that they are highly stressed due to suspension loads and develop cracks after that. The blocks may have similar restrictions, but the artical I read just spoke of the heads.

[desmo]

Please note that F1 teams do not simply "throw away" these parts, but must destroy them in a similar manner to how you might run your old credit card statements through a paper shredder to destroy any technical information that might be contained in them. So forget "dumpster diving" at Marenello or Woking etc.

[Richard Border]

Yes, "throw away" was meant more as not sold as "coffee tables" or remelted.

If they where sold as coffee tables, you would think that the English had given up tea drinking due to the number of "coffee tables" bought around Silverstone.

They wouldn't be remelted because of impurities that might be in the melt. It only takes a little to change the aluminum's properties a lot.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Or kept for long enough before turning them in to coffee tables htat they're no longer technical interesting

[Rainer Nyberg]

I know Mercedes does scrap their engines after each GP.
They use 80 engines per year. So it equals to about 5 engines per race. Maybe 4 engines is closer to the truth if you take into account the various testing over the year.
So it is 2 engines per driver going into the waste-bin after every race.

[Richard Border]

Or kept for long enough before turning them in to coffee tables htat they're
no longer technical interesting

What's the most current F1 head you've seen? These guys make the CIA look like blabber mouths!

[RiverRunner]

About four in half seconds----in the NHRA,burning Nitro...

I have some pics of Alky blocks and heads from the NHRA to post for the tech forum when I get them scanned,you'd be amazed how huge they are.All billet and CNC cut.

[desmo]

If you ever go to an NHRA race get a pit pass, you can watch the Top Fuel guys rebuild their motors right in front of you! The Pro Stock class is where things are a lot more secret. I'd like to see F1 mandate that all servicing be done in full view of the fans and press during race weekends, the teams would bitch, sure but other than that it'd be good for the show. And good bitching ain't bad show biz anyway.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by desmo
If you ever go to an NHRA race get a pit pass, you can watch the Top Fuel guys rebuild their motors right in front of you!

In the NHRA Top Fuel cars the main secrets are in the the tuning. This resides in the settings that are tweeked into the pneumatic timers that in turn control the fuel flow, the clutch latch up sequence, and the magneto spark advance control all within an open loop timing scheme. Most of the Fans don't know enough about this to even ask questions about that. TV programs associated with this kind of racing don't get into this area nor does associated magazines in any comprehensive way. Fortunately I've had one of the top guys from the clutch manufacturer (who also tunes one car completely and acts as a consultant for the rest) give me a generic overview on the operation of these timers and the clutch right in the Pits this year at Gainsville FL.

Rgds;

[desmo]

Do tell. I find the technology in Top Fuel and indeed drag racing in general fascinating. And I'd bet some crossover tech could usefully applied in F1 now that LC is legal.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by desmo
Do tell. I find the technology in Top Fuel and indeed drag racing in general fascinating. And I'd bet some crossover tech could usefully applied in F1 now that LC is legal.

The current massive (now 5 disc) clutch concept was extrapolated from some old REO Truck clutch. It's centrifugal not unlike a Go-Kart's. In any event the pneumatic timers control some hydraulic valves that subsequently drive a hydraulic cannon at the rear inside the clutch bell housing. This initially applies 4 fixed fingers for the launch. If all power was allowed to the rear tires at the launch the tires would wrap around on themselves. As the timers proceed they move the cannon back further, allowing some of the movable centrifugal fingers to apply pressure to the clutch disc/floater sandwich. They call this allowing latch up. The centrifugally driven fingers are applying about a 1000 LBS per by virtue of the cannon being out of their way. So there is not any actual latch up. As more timers time out more fingers are allowed to compress the clutch sandwich until they all are engaged. In that this is being done Open Loop you can imagine the chaos that can occur if the tires lose traction and the driver starts getting on and off the fuel pedal trying to rectify things. As well, the timers for the fuel control have been proceeding since the launch.

Rgds;

[desmo]

Thanks for that. It might be easier to do with an ECU dedicated to the cause and implemented via software in F1. How about third gear starts with sophisticated clutch actuation? Of course you'd probably just fry the dinky little clutches necessary in F1 to get the crank center low enough. Oh well.

[RiverRunner]

Your run of the mill NHRA tuner has lotsa tricks.One of my buds runs the 4 time nat champ alky rail.You should see all the dummy lines he runs on his fuel set ups as merely psychs on the competetion.Next time you go to the NHRA pits,keep a close eye on the tuners hands as he opens and closes different jets on the blower hat.
Most of getting these beasts to run well is in the air/fuel mixture with a bit of fuel mixing.Every port is double jetted and even there the jets are usually mixed sizes,this is also the area where the timers come into play.Alkys are allowed to run up to 10% nitro and the Fuelers are not allowed to run more than 90% nitro.
Drags are a lot of fun,and more technically interesting than you would think.More than one pro stock tuner is now in the ranks of the NASCAR engine builders as head/valve train wizards.

[Top Fuel F1]

Just to clarify my previous Post: There are no gear shifts in Top Fuel. What effectively gives you that function is the combination of the centrifugal clutch having it's disc/floater sandwich gradually compressed in steps and the ever growing diameter of the tires as you progress down the track.

Rgds;