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Renault push for faster electrification of F1 from 2025 [edited]


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#51 Ben1445

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:44

It was Agag's work putting together sponsorship deals for F1 that made him realise that concerns over environemental impact was becoming a huge barrier to closing said deals. That led him towards putting his weight behind FE.

I do feel like this is a point often missed about how FE started. It was nothing more than the spying of a business opportunity by a savvy businessman. 



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#52 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:52

I do not see any reason what so ever for F1 to have any road relevancy.

 

:cool:



#53 Requiem84

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:54

I do not see any reason what so ever for F1 to have any road relevancy.

:cool:


Manufacturers will leave without the relevancy.

How exited would you be to have 5 teams in F1 and watching Williams battling Sauber?

#54 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:56

He and the 10 other people watching would be thrilled with 'True F1' 



#55 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:56

Manufacturers will leave without the relevancy.

How exited would you be to have 5 teams in F1 and watching Williams battling Sauber?

 

I see no reason that manufacturers have to be in F1 either.

 

:cool:



#56 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:57

He and the 10 other people watching would be thrilled with 'True F1' 

 

Surely we are in excess of 100 if taking the Global view.

 

:cool:



#57 Ben1445

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 19:58

Manufacturers will leave without the relevancy.

How exited would you be to have 5 teams in F1 and watching Williams battling Sauber?


And on top of that, who will build their engines? With no manufactures willing to invest millions into making them, and cash strapped as the independent teams are...

#58 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:00

I wouldn't mind at all if F1 went back to the 'good ole days' and it was simpler and more affordable and everyone had roughly the same engine. But man alive, nevermind EV or ICE you could power the world's cars on the outrage if they did that. 



#59 Ben1445

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:10

I see no reason that manufacturers have to be in F1 either.

Someone has to build the engines... Unless the teams start taking production road ICEs and tuning them to race spec which... oh. Wait... 

 

I do not see any reason what so ever for F1 to have any road relevancy.

Well, I suppose you could get someone like Cosworth to do it. But I'd imagine they'd want to guarantee return on their investment because this ICE is just for sheer fun and doesn't feed into their evolving commercial expertise as part of either their R&D or marketing platforms. So I suspect they would want a guaranteed spec-supply contract. But apparently spec components (especially the ICE) are against F1's DNA so... oh dear. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 October 2019 - 20:10.


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#60 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:20

And on top of that, who will build their engines? With no manufactures willing to invest millions into making them, and cash strapped as the independent teams are...

 

Build it and they will come, there have been plenty of specialists who build F1 engines, some successful and some not, some paid by a manufacturer and some not...

 

Cosworth
Hart
Mecachrome
Supertech
Asiatech
Ilmor
Judd
Life
Motoro Moderni
Mugen
Zackspeed
 
I am sure I am forgetting some.
 
Since this thread is bot quite on the tangent I am at, I will stop being the luddite looking with rosetinted glasses in the rear view mirror, and will not pollute it with what is not the intent. But where I am coming from is
 
Big brutal machines, powered by fossil fuels, super hard to race, with the drivers being the key ingredient, I do not care for or need any of the relevancy the sport is filled with currently, I have zero interest in FE, if F1 becomes electric I will no longer have any interest in F1.
 
:cool:


#61 KeithD68

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:20

If Renault want electrification they should leave F1 and go race in formula E



#62 Viryfan

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:26

 

Build it and they will come, there have been plenty of specialists who build F1 engines, some successful and some not, some paid by a manufacturer and some not...

 

Cosworth
Hart
Mecachrome
Supertech
Asiatech
Ilmor
Judd
Life
Motoro Moderni
Mugen
Zackspeed
 
I am sure I am forgetting some.
 
Since this thread is bot quite on the tangent I am at, I will stop being the luddite looking with rosetinted glasses in the rear view mirror, and will not pollute it with what is not the intent. But where I am coming from is
 
Big brutal machines, powered by fossil fuels, super hard to race, with the drivers being the key ingredient, I do not care for or need any of the relevancy the sport is filled with currently, I have zero interest in FE, if F1 becomes electric I will no longer have any interest in F1.
 
:cool:

 

 

These guys needs manufacturers to bankroll them, otherwise no engine.



#63 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:27

If Renault want electrification they should leave F1 and go race in formula E

Exactly.



#64 Requiem84

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:32

I see no reason that manufacturers have to be in F1 either.

:cool:


F1 will lose its prestige without Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda and Renault.

The big money will then go to FE. The best drivers would then go to FE as well. F1 tv ratings would decline. coverage will decline, less races.

It will destroy F1.

#65 Viryfan

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:35

I struggle to understand the flack that Abiteboul is taking on this matter.

 

Nowdays F1 hybrid power represents roughly 16% of the power from cars (with a basis of 1000hp).

 

This was enough for 2014 but not anymore, now that MGU H and MGU K got more reliable the focus went on ICE as hybrid power is limited by regulations.

 

I think that F1 in 2025 should go for 24MJ of electric energy (instead of 6MJ) and use non fossil fuel for the ICE part.

 

F1 needs to move fast.



#66 Ben1445

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:36

F1 will lose its prestige without Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda and Renault.

The big money will then go to FE. The best drivers would then go to FE as well. F1 tv ratings would decline. coverage will decline, less races.

It will destroy F1.

Yep. I can't see any way in which going 'back to the good old days' of big, noisy, unapologetically fossil-fuel burning ICEs results in anything but the long term decline and death of F1. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 October 2019 - 20:43.


#67 realracer200

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 20:41

What is faster electrifocation?



#68 Sterzo

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:24

What is faster electrifocation?

Risil has created one of the finest words in the English language - OK, he's made it disappear now, but let's continue using it at every opportunity.

I electrifocate.

You electrifocate.

He electrifocates.

Shall they not also have electrifocated?



#69 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:24

F1 has been internal combustion engines for as long as it's existed, turbine experiments notwithstanding.

 

I'd just like to point out that gas turbines are also internal combustion engines.



#70 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:24

Risil has created one of the finest words in the English language - OK, he's made it disappear now, but let's continue using it at every opportunity.

I electrifocate.

You electrifocate.

He electrifocates.

Shall they not also have electrifocated?

 

I made it disappear.



#71 Quickshifter

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:26

ICE cars will continue to be sold in many countries up until 2035 to 2040, may be even beyond that . We are talking about a time frame of 15 to 20 years. Yes Eventually F1 will go full electric but i don't see that happening until 2035 at least. Yes the electrification extent of the power units will continue to rise up until then however ICE will be an important cog of PU regulations at least up until 2035 imho. The battery technology has to evolve massively from where it stands to the levels of performance and range needed in f1. And i haven't even begun talking about fans who definitely prefer F1 keeping ICE in some capacity as long as possible.

PU manufacturers are able to subsidize PU costs as the regulations are stable and if there is a totally different PU development then how would that reflect at a moment where there is talk of reducing costs?

Edited by Quickshifter, 05 October 2019 - 21:26.


#72 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:32

Anyway, on the topic at hand. When a fully electric car can do a 300 km Grand Prix in about an hour an a half, I'd be happy for F1 to go fully electric. I don't mean that in a "when pigs fly" sort of way. I just mean I'd be happy whenever is happens. Whether its possible next year on in fifty.

 

In the meantime, with major manufacturers focused (or being forced to focus by their key markets) on electrification, I'd be happy to see development in F1 focus more on electric technology and let the internal combustion engine freeze while gains are made elsewhere. What makes F1 F1 is the speed the cars can go. It's not necessarily what the energy source is.



#73 goldenboy

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:41

I am not really interested in full electric F1.

But I understand it's not going to survive without going in that direction.

I wonder when they start having this discussion with drag racing.

#74 Clatter

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 21:48

I am not really interested in full electric F1.

But I understand it's not going to survive without going in that direction.

I wonder when they start having this discussion with drag racing.

 


Electric drag racing is already here.

Edited by Clatter, 05 October 2019 - 21:49.


#75 goldenboy

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:05

Electric drag racing is already here.https://www.youtube....E&start_radio=1

Looks terrible.

What's the fan response been like?

Edited by goldenboy, 05 October 2019 - 22:06.


#76 Clatter

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:09

Looks terrible.

What's the fan response been like?

 


No idea. Just pointing out that it is already happening.

#77 Fastcake

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:24

Certainly a massive reason that wallets are opened to fund racing teams.

 

But manufactures and sponsors (these days at least) generally do not want to be associated with activities that do not have a net-positive impact on the environment. ICE motorsport does not tick that box for a significant number of potential racing bankrollers and that number will only increase. 

 

Again it is a point about business and how the racing we love is paid for.

 

The who is going to pay for your 2000s throwback V10 F1 paradise is never really answered. The world's moved on, as you say, and car manufacturers are only going to race an essential facsimile of what they're building, and sponsors at large aren't interested in someone's archaic fantasy. Environmentalism is only going to get more important when companies consider who to associate with.



#78 Bliman

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:24

We clearly do not see F1 as the same thing, for me F1 will never be F1 if electric.

 

Period.

 

Stop.

 

:cool:

I heard the same with the halo (not by you persé). If F1 switches many will still be watching.If the technology is there then they will change.

And I think that FE will become a driverless series. Where car manufacturers will test things for cars in the future.



#79 Talisman

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:42

F1 will lose its prestige without Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda and Renault.

The big money will then go to FE. The best drivers would then go to FE as well. F1 tv ratings would decline. coverage will decline, less races.

It will destroy F1.

F1 won’t just lose its prestige if the manufacturers leave, it will lose its income. The sheer marketing heft brought by the manufacturers make it worthwhile for a lot of sponsors to be in the sport. Without the makers that would be lost.

F1 would quickly become a spec formula because that would be the only way the sport would be financially viable in their absence. It would probably lose its TV coverage too.

That said Renault is the least equipped to transition to a different set of rules due to their budget. I guess if they are pushing for increased reliance on the hybrid electric bit it’s because their funding would be rather shakier without it.

Edited by Talisman, 05 October 2019 - 22:42.


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#80 pdac

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:43

It's not a point up for discussion that we have to radically reduce global greenhouse emissions within the next decade - it's a fact. In all the historic trade offs between ICEs and EVs, this situation is unprecedented. Unless a realistic solution to make ICEs carbon neutral can be found, then the ICE will fail for that reason and that reason alone. 

 

Without wanting to stray too far off topic, I would like to point out that, whilst most people accept that emissions have to be reduced to avoid huge global changes due to the climate effects, it is still up to those in charge to actually get it done. I suspect (like those that run F1), it will not happen and the humanity will have to deal with the consequences (effectively, geographic rich-poor divides will become even more profound).

 

Just saying, it's not an "it will happen" situation, it's still a "we would be stupid not to do this" situation.



#81 pdac

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:47

The problem F1 would have is if if Electric Engines become too potent/efficient, Formula E will just eat them from below. If suddenly Formula E cars were going as fast as Indycars, which meant they'd start moving to real road/street circuits, and etc, that'd be a very serious threat.

 

Formula 1 would have to go all electric purely to avoid becoming "Indycar". The sort of simplified/old fashioned/niche form of racing that people enjoy on the side. 

 

F1 is not about the cars, it's about the brand. I think its (brand) resilience may surprise.



#82 pdac

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 22:54

Anyway, on the topic at hand. When a fully electric car can do a 300 km Grand Prix in about an hour an a half, I'd be happy for F1 to go fully electric. I don't mean that in a "when pigs fly" sort of way. I just mean I'd be happy whenever is happens. Whether its possible next year on in fifty.

 

In the meantime, with major manufacturers focused (or being forced to focus by their key markets) on electrification, I'd be happy to see development in F1 focus more on electric technology and let the internal combustion engine freeze while gains are made elsewhere. What makes F1 F1 is the speed the cars can go. It's not necessarily what the energy source is.

 

I think that IS when pigs fly.



#83 Ben1445

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 23:17

Without wanting to stray too far off topic, I would like to point out that, whilst most people accept that emissions have to be reduced to avoid huge global changes due to the climate effects, it is still up to those in charge to actually get it done. I suspect (like those that run F1), it will not happen and the humanity will have to deal with the consequences (effectively, geographic rich-poor divides will become even more profound).

Just saying, it's not an "it will happen" situation, it's still a "we would be stupid not to do this" situation.

Well, if that’s how it is then F1 as a ICE centric formula is kind of doomed anyway, isn’t it. Either it fades away as the world makes a sustainable transition or it dies completely when we have a lot more to worry about then racing cars around for fun.

#84 JHSingo

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 23:39

It seems like a real catch-22 situation for F1's future.

 

I think it's fair to say electric motorsport is very marmite - it divides opinions massively, as we've seen on this forum plenty of times in the past. Currently, electric motorsport has been limited to series that were set-up as being electric powered from the very start, and, as a result, have built a decent fan base of people who like electric cars, or have no overly negative opinion of them.

 

But I do think that as the electrification of more...established series takes place, you're likely to see quite a bit of negativity from fans. Let's face it, a lot of motorsport fans are very traditional - drivers and fans glamorize the past on a regular basis. Just look at the reaction to Vettel's V12 comment as evidence of that. I just imagine that as soon as rally cars, touring cars, Le Mans cars, and yes, even F1 cars start sounding more like Formula E cars there's going to be quite a lot of pitchfork raising going on. Hell, look at the discussion we saw when F1 introduced the V6Ts several years ago. It'll be that, all over again, but probably on a much bigger scale.

 

Yet, I can see why electrification of F1 (or indeed, any other series) is if not inevitable, then at least rather sensible in the long term, for reasons already mentioned here. If F1 does stick to ICE, it'll likely see the departure of several manufacturers, and be at risk of losing its title of the "pinnacle of motorsport".

 

Who, ultimately, does the sport need to avoid pissing off least? The fans, or the manufacturers? Without the fans there is no sport, regardless of how environmentally friendly the cars are. But without manufacturers willing to play, there's no sport either...

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, after the initial outrage at F1 switching to electric power, things will...ahem...quieten down and we'll all just come to accept it. But, I do feel like before that ever happened there could be a sizeable backlash, of which the governing body, manufacturers and everyone else must surely be aware of. Or do they just feel that losing fans to ensure the possible future of the sport is worth it, and that those who don't like it are dispensable?


Edited by JHSingo, 05 October 2019 - 23:41.


#85 pdac

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 23:56

It seems like a real catch-22 situation for F1's future.

 

Not really. Everyone else will be following the money. Manufacturers are investing in electric because they think that may be where the money is in the near future. They have to because, the money is not in electric then they can just roll back, but if the money is in electric, then they will be out of business if they don't have something to offer right away.

 

If F1 wants manufacturer money (which, I'm sure they do), then what they do is march along side the manufacturers. If there is a difference in views (e.g. Ferrari don't want electric), then go with the ones who really matter to you. As I stated earlier, I believe that the F1 brand is very resilient, We were told hybrid will kill F1 because the cars sound piss-poor - didn't happen. We were told halo will kill F1 because the cars look terrible - didn't happen. There is an immense inertia amongst F1 fans. It's very difficult to get them to move away. They only really move away because they die.



#86 goldenboy

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Posted 05 October 2019 - 23:59

Not really. Everyone else will be following the money. Manufacturers are investing in electric because they think that may be where the money is in the near future. They have to because, the money is not in electric then they can just roll back, but if the money is in electric, then they will be out of business if they don't have something to offer right away.

If F1 wants manufacturer money (which, I'm sure they do), then what they do is march along side the manufacturers. If there is a difference in views (e.g. Ferrari don't want electric), then go with the ones who really matter to you. As I stated earlier, I believe that the F1 brand is very resilient, We were told hybrid will kill F1 because the cars sound piss-poor - didn't happen. We were told halo will kill F1 because the cars look terrible - didn't happen. There is an immense inertia amongst F1 fans. It's very difficult to get them to move away. They only really move away because they die.

Going hybrid and installing the halo are absolutely nothing compared to going full electric though. Not even comparable.

#87 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 00:13

F1 goes full electric, I'm out. 

 

If some people like seeing silent, tame and gearless cars going around a race track, good for them. This is not for me, though.


Edited by PedroDiCasttro, 06 October 2019 - 00:15.


#88 SonGoku

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 00:27

If Renault is really pushing this, then goodbye and don't come back.

People already hate the hybrids, imagine this...it won't fly with fans and no fans no interest etc etc.

Edited by SonGoku, 06 October 2019 - 00:27.


#89 Ben1445

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 00:27

It seems like a real catch-22 situation for F1's future.

 

[...]

 

Who, ultimately, does the sport need to avoid pissing off least? The fans, or the manufacturers? Without the fans there is no sport, regardless of how environmentally friendly the cars are. But without manufacturers willing to play, there's no sport either...

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, after the initial outrage at F1 switching to electric power, things will...ahem...quieten down and we'll all just come to accept it. But, I do feel like before that ever happened there could be a sizeable backlash, of which the governing body, manufacturers and everyone else must surely be aware of. Or do they just feel that losing fans to ensure the possible future of the sport is worth it, and that those who don't like it are dispensable?

I think demographics has to be taken into account in the discussion. 

 

Formula One viewers are skewed towards, shall we say, the older end of the age range. It's been known problem within the last couple of decades that pulling in younger fans to motorsport has been a challenge. We've had many threads talk about how the young today aren't interested in cars or have attention spans shorter than a gnat's honeymoon or some other reason. It was said that chasing after younger viewers was a fools errand. 

 

And yet, Formula E has reportedly managed to build an (albeit smaller) audience that is skewed the other way towards the younger end of the age range. It has managed to tap into the under 35 and, more impressively, the under 25 markets. a bulk of these viewers should be around for four or five decades yet. The same can't really be said for F1 as it is. 

 

(there are, of course, exceptions to this trend) 

 

If motorsport generally is to continue to prosper, it needs new young fans. The youth of today is far more concerned about the climate - enough for school kids to start going on strike. They are unlikely as hell to engage with an F1 that is shamelessly unsustainable. If F1 does not embrace electrification and gives its existing fans what they want ... when those fans are gone, who replaces them? The younger fans will be watching something like FE and will have formed an emotional brand loyalty not unlike the ones current F1 fans have...

 

So perhaps the question is as much about 'sacrificing' the older, established fans as it is gaining the new, younger ones. 


Edited by Ben1445, 06 October 2019 - 00:31.


#90 BuddyHolly

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 00:33

F1 Electric is not F1, get out with this garbage! :mad:

Renault, feel free to bog off and join Formula E.



#91 Ben1445

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 00:47

Anyway, on the topic at hand. When a fully electric car can do a 300 km Grand Prix in about an hour an a half, I'd be happy for F1 to go fully electric. I don't mean that in a "when pigs fly" sort of way. I just mean I'd be happy whenever is happens. Whether its possible next year on in fifty.

 

In the meantime, with major manufacturers focused (or being forced to focus by their key markets) on electrification, I'd be happy to see development in F1 focus more on electric technology and let the internal combustion engine freeze while gains are made elsewhere. What makes F1 F1 is the speed the cars can go. It's not necessarily what the energy source is.

The only thing I would question is what if, hypothetically, we never get to that point? And that extends from F1 through to just about everything. What if the consequences of shifting to a sustainable society means that our infrastructure (at least within out lifetimes) is just not quite as 'good' as it was before? 

 

We used to fly people supersonic and now we don't for all sorts of financial/environmental/political reasons. Is that an unacceptable step backwards or is it just reassessing what we actually need against what we have the physical capability to do?  

 

That's why I say I would be happy if EV developments mean we only see racing at speeds and distances somewhere in between today's Formula E and today's Formula One. Of course I would love it to be equal or better to what we have now. But as long as it is sustainable and the pinnacle of EV technology, I'll be happy. 



#92 Bliman

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:28

F1 Electric is not F1, get out with this garbage! :mad:

Renault, feel free to bog off and join Formula E.

Define what F1 is? Because F1 always changes. Hybrids, paddle shifters, Rear wings, halo, etc...

So what do you consider the essentials of F1? What things must be kept or it isn't F1 anymore?



#93 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:29

Full electric is a long way away for F1, so I don't think it even merits discussion at this point. FE's last race was only 102km, with an average speed of 129km/h and 250kw available. F1's last race by comparison was 309km, average 198km/h and over 700kw available. Obviously the hybrid aspect will still be required for quite some time.

#94 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 02:22

It's not a point up for discussion that we have to radically reduce global greenhouse emissions within the next decade - it's a fact. In all the historic trade offs between ICEs and EVs, this situation is unprecedented. Unless a realistic solution to make ICEs carbon neutral can be found, then the ICE will fail for that reason and that reason alone.


A majority of the electricity generated today is through technology that produces more carbon pollution than an ICE. :wave:

#95 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 02:38

He and the 10 other people watching would be thrilled with 'True F1'


That sounds like a bigger crowd than what FE generates! :lol:

#96 AustinF1

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 04:08

Uhm, you cut off the bit immediately after where I said When Relevant...

Ah, my bad. Agree. The supposed relevance of this formula is a myth. 


Edited by AustinF1, 06 October 2019 - 04:13.


#97 AustinF1

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 04:09

*sigh* 

 

But no worries from my part because pedantic humour does not change the fundamental, underlying thrust of the argument. 

Humor? Pedantic? I merely assumed that when you said "zero emissions", you meant zero emissions.


Edited by AustinF1, 06 October 2019 - 04:38.


#98 AustinF1

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 04:18

What is faster electrifocation?

It's when you electrofo things faster. 

 

Duh!



#99 AustinF1

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 04:24

Looks terrible.

What's the fan response been like?

Judging from that particular video ... it's not good.



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#100 Jazza

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 05:15

Whilst the maths is a bit rough and simplistic, I would imagine that an FE car could put out F1 power for about 10% of a current F1 race distance (This based on FE cars having about 1/3 the power of an F1 car and currently going about a 1/3 the race distance). As I said, simplistic maths, but a rough number of where EVs are at: 6 laps of Barcelona at about 1000hp.

I guess if you could get fast and safe battery swaps and push that number out to about 25% race distance (20 laps), then a electric F1 race at current speeds is not out of reach. But, we are still only at about 40% of what is needed to achieve that at the moment. Long way to go before anyone can think of a full electric F1 race.