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Renault push for faster electrification of F1 from 2025 [edited]


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#401 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 08:28

You do realise that Mecachrome, Supertech and Asiatech were all rebadged Renault V10s?

 

You should read what I wrote in the post.

 

:cool:



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#402 KeithD68

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 13:42

Electric drag racing is already here.https://www.youtube....E&start_radio=1

I haven’t seen top fuel dragsters in years, but when I did go the best thing was the noise and feeling the vibrations and sheer violence going on inside the engine through the ground and the air.

I wouldn’t go to watch this thing if you gave me tickets and offered to drive me there and back in a limo.

Edited by KeithD68, 10 October 2019 - 13:43.


#403 Fatgadget

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 16:30

I haven’t seen top fuel dragsters in years, but when I did go the best thing was the noise and feeling the vibrations and sheer violence going on inside the engine through the ground and the air.

I wouldn’t go to watch this thing if you gave me tickets and offered to drive me there and back in a limo.

One word for you then..Luddite! :wave:



#404 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 17:27

One word for you then..Luddite! :wave:

 

I would wear that honorific proudly...

 

:cool:



#405 Clatter

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 18:42

I haven’t seen top fuel dragsters in years, but when I did go the best thing was the noise and feeling the vibrations and sheer violence going on inside the engine through the ground and the air.

I wouldn’t go to watch this thing if you gave me tickets and offered to drive me there and back in a limo.

 


I know a lot of people that would say the same thing about drag racing full stop, they probably feel the same way about F1. Just because you don't like it isn't going to stop it happening.

#406 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:56

I know a lot of people that would say the same thing about drag racing full stop, they probably feel the same way about F1. Just because you don't like it isn't going to stop it happening.

 

I see it as those in charge not understanding their product.

 

:cool:



#407 Muz Bee

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 21:11

I guess environmental orthodoxy (zero emissions) over actual environmental impact where you have to account for mining of rare earth elements and end of life disposal of battery elements, means the world is going headlong down the current path. If F1 is forced by the political correctness to eventually go full electric then it will diminish as a spectator sport. Just look at FE! Yawn - Marketing sham without any real excitement IMO and the opinion of many. Look at the outcry over lack of noise in the hybrid/turbo era. The lack of visceral sounds and even smells will turn off fans asked to adapt to racing electrical appliances.

The future looks dark IMO.

Edited by Muz Bee, 10 October 2019 - 21:12.


#408 Kalmake

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 22:01

I know a lot of people that would say the same thing about drag racing full stop, they probably feel the same way about F1. Just because you don't like it isn't going to stop it happening.

Drag racing isn't controlled by car companies like F1 is. If they have to change anything they will probably go for bio fuels to keep the noise.



#409 Clatter

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 22:04

Drag racing isn't controlled by car companies like F1 is. If they have to change anything they will probably go for bio fuels to keep the noise.

My personal view is there is still a future for ICEs, but the fuel needs to change. However I'm now sure that biofuels are the right solution.

Even if they don't have to change, there are people already going the electric route.

Edited by Clatter, 10 October 2019 - 22:06.


#410 Fatgadget

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 22:04

I guess environmental orthodoxy (zero emissions) over actual environmental impact where you have to account for mining of rare earth elements and end of life disposal of battery elements, means the world is going headlong down the current path. If F1 is forced by the political correctness to eventually go full electric then it will diminish as a spectator sport. Just look at FE! Yawn - Marketing sham without any real excitement IMO and the opinion of many. Look at the outcry over lack of noise in the hybrid/turbo era. The lack of visceral sounds and even smells will turn off fans asked to adapt to racing electrical appliances.

The future looks dark IMO.

The  future is bright I reckon. No more polluting fossil fuelled dinasaurs!  :kiss:



#411 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 22:07

Just look at FE! Yawn - Marketing sham without any real excitement IMO and the opinion of many. Look at the outcry over lack of noise in the hybrid/turbo era. The lack of visceral sounds and even smells will turn off fans asked to adapt to racing electrical appliances.
The future looks dark IMO.


The classic telltale of someone who has never watched FE. It’s one of the most exciting classes of motorsport around at the moment. Great racing on a regular basis.

#412 Vielleicht

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 22:07

I guess environmental orthodoxy (zero emissions) over actual environmental impact where you have to account for mining of rare earth elements and end of life disposal of battery elements, means the world is going headlong down the current path. If F1 is forced by the political correctness to eventually go full electric then it will diminish as a spectator sport. Just look at FE! Yawn - Marketing sham without any real excitement IMO and the opinion of many. Look at the outcry over lack of noise in the hybrid/turbo era. The lack of visceral sounds and even smells will turn off fans asked to adapt to racing electrical appliances.

The future looks dark IMO.

Second time that I'm saying this in this thread...but FE really is my favourite motorsports series right now. I’ve been a motorsport fan since before all this electrification started and the sights and sounds of the cars of my youth will always make smile. But I don’t crave for their return, and it is in good part because FE is the series that captures my passions as much as any racing ever has, it is the one I follow intently for news and analysis and get up at stupid hours of the day just to watch the practice sessions for. I just love it, plain and simple.

It is of course just my story and my opinion. I’m not saying everyone has to like FE. I also don’t know if I’ll end up being an outlier or not. I just feel like I need to add counterbalance to the discussion which all too often tends to suggest that electric racing just fundamentally cannot inspire an equal passion to combustion racing. Because I know that it is simply not the case for me.


Edited by Vielleicht, 10 October 2019 - 22:29.


#413 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 00:18

The classic telltale of someone who has never watched FE. It’s one of the most exciting classes of motorsport around at the moment. Great racing on a regular basis.

 

Artificial catering to political correctness and lowest common denominator.

 

But I have been wrong before.

 

:cool:



#414 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 07:54

It's the classic head versus heart dilemma really.

 

Head says F1 needs to be at the forefront of motorsport technology, leveraging, realising and promoting the potential of new possibilities provided by advances in technology such as aerodynamics, materials and energy. The driving principle should simply be making the cars faster (and if possible the racing better), not some false adherence to political correctness on the one side or some romantic notion of the past on the other. Technological advance in F1 should be driven by where the potential lies to make the biggest time gains. Having said that, there is no getting around the looming changes in our society with regards to environmentalism and if F1 wants to remain relevant and vibrant it needs to keep fitting in the shifting paradigm.

 

Heart says the F1 I fell in love with in the early nineties were outrageously loud and light cars that looked like absolutely monsters for the drivers to control, and we should move back to those highly visceral and emotive heydays of F1 seeing as F1 should primarily be an entertainment sport where fans come to see gladiators taking each other on. As such it doesn't need to be relevant per se and we we could well do without the big automative corporations and their agenda's. I mean, people still enjoy martial arts and horse racing too, when there are much more efficient and faster methods now availble to physically dispose of an enemy or get from A to B, so why not F1 as it was at its brilliant peak?

 

I'm really torn on this. I actually enjoy that we have Formula E and Indycar still representing the two extremes of head and heart to some extent, but I think where F1 is now, sort of stuck in between and slowly yet inevitably moving to electrification may be strategically catastrophic. Above all else F1 needs to find its outrageousness back. At the side of the track these cars are still utterly amazing and you can actually spot the extra thrust provided by the hybrid element coming out of certain corners, but on broadcast the sheer speed isn't conveyed very well, the fantastic high pitch noise from the V10's and V12's is replaced by the sound of a hoover, the cars look like they are on rails and when the drivers get out of the car they mostly look like they could easily do another race distance.

 

All in all I don't really have the answer to this question but I agree with Abiteboul and Wolff that F1 needs to have this discussion and make up its mind of what it wants to be because it's at risk of being left behind and losing its hardcore fans at the same time through indecision.



#415 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 08:34

It's the classic head versus heart dilemma really.

 

Head says F1 needs to be at the forefront of motorsport technology, leveraging, realising and promoting the potential of new possibilities provided by advances in technology such as aerodynamics, materials and energy. The driving principle should simply be making the cars faster (and if possible the racing better), not some false adherence to political correctness on the one side or some romantic notion of the past on the other. Technological advance in F1 should be driven by where the potential lies to make the biggest time gains. Having said that, there is no getting around the looming changes in our society with regards to environmentalism and if F1 wants to remain relevant and vibrant it needs to keep fitting in the shifting paradigm.

 

Heart says the F1 I fell in love with in the early nineties were outrageously loud and light cars that looked like absolutely monsters for the drivers to control, and we should move back to those highly visceral and emotive heydays of F1 seeing as F1 should primarily be an entertainment sport where fans come to see gladiators taking each other on. As such it doesn't need to be relevant per se and we we could well do without the big automative corporations and their agenda's. I mean, people still enjoy martial arts and horse racing too, when there are much more efficient and faster methods now availble to physically dispose of an enemy or get from A to B, so why not F1 as it was at its brilliant peak?

 

I'm really torn on this. I actually enjoy that we have Formula E and Indycar still representing the two extremes of head and heart to some extent, but I think where F1 is now, sort of stuck in between and slowly yet inevitably moving to electrification may be strategically catastrophic. Above all else F1 needs to find its outrageousness back. At the side of the track these cars are still utterly amazing and you can actually spot the extra thrust provided by the hybrid element coming out of certain corners, but on broadcast the sheer speed isn't conveyed very well, the fantastic high pitch noise from the V10's and V12's is replaced by the sound of a hoover, the cars look like they are on rails and when the drivers get out of the car they mostly look like they could easily do another race distance.

 

All in all I don't really have the answer to this question but I agree with Abiteboul and Wolff that F1 needs to have this discussion and make up its mind of what it wants to be because it's at risk of being left behind and losing its hardcore fans at the same time through indecision.

I think the BIB is key.  Other drivers past and present have alluded to that, too, and I think it encapsulates what may be missing from present F1.

 

F1 drivers used to be gladiators but everything seems far too polished now.  And some of that is inevitable of course the more professional things get but I also think there is less a feel of pushing the limits than there was before.  Before road relevance and economy pushed itself to the fore there was a sense of cars and drivers on the ragged edge but much of that has been lost.  Everything is tightly controlled now and there's more focus on what they can't do than what they can.

 

The solution for me is not to turn back the clock to a previous technical era.  At the same time, the constant focus on limiting teams - and by extension, competition - is not helping them.  



#416 Ben1445

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 08:41

All in all I don't really have the answer to this question but I agree with Abiteboul and Wolff that F1 needs to have this discussion and make up its mind of what it wants to be because it's at risk of being left behind and losing its hardcore fans at the same time through indecision.

Can agree there. 



#417 sopa

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:34

 I mean, people still enjoy martial arts and horse racing too, when there are much more efficient and faster methods now availble to physically dispose of an enemy or get from A to B, so why not F1 as it was at its brilliant peak?

 

 

The difference is that motorsports is so expensive. You need manufacturers or at least some other big companies with deep pockets (i.e Red Bull) to design and build cars to go racing. If those companies didn't exist, you can't go racing. Simple as that. What concerns horse racing or any other sport you simply don't need that investment. You just need money to feed and groom horses, or whatever. Well, maybe in motorsports the equivalent would be karting or something, which is a much less expensive form of racing with much simpler technology.

 

So if anybody wants a throwback to the past, go karting. Forget about cars, which take hundreds of millions of $$ to build and maintain.


Edited by sopa, 11 October 2019 - 09:36.


#418 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:05

The difference is that motorsports is so expensive. You need manufacturers or at least some other big companies with deep pockets (i.e Red Bull) to design and build cars to go racing. If those companies didn't exist, you can't go racing. Simple as that. What concerns horse racing or any other sport you simply don't need that investment. You just need money to feed and groom horses, or whatever. Well, maybe in motorsports the equivalent would be karting or something, which is a much less expensive form of racing with much simpler technology.

So if anybody wants a throwback to the past, go karting. Forget about cars, which take hundreds of millions of $$ to build and maintain.

Not sure I agree with that. It’s not the direction I want F1 to move in, but I’m sure if they wanted some specialist smaller race engine manufacturers would be more than happy to supply normally aspirated ICE units with or without turbo at a much smaller cost than we currenty see for these F1 hybrids. For me the cost argument is very weak, especially as a reason for supposedly needing big car F1 manufacturor involvement; F1 was much cheaper when it was a better spectacle and dominated by family run teams with quite small budgets. It only got more expensive because of their involvement, not despite of it and with it the spectacle has arguably got worse.

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 11 October 2019 - 10:07.


#419 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:59

Even without big breakthroughs, the improvement in battery technology (measured as energy density and specific energy) have been rising at a pretty steady 5% per year for several decades. That alone doubles battery capability on fairly short time frames. 

Could you offer anecdotal evidence to that? In the case of market leader Tesla focusing on energy density mainly due to correlation with cost, it's not been the case. Not since the 2012 Model S at least. the original Roadster was indeed a good bit down on that.



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#420 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:20

The  future is bright I reckon. No more polluting fossil fuelled dinasaurs!  :kiss:

Just polluting battery powered even older dinosaurs, with a need for increasing amounts of power generation to charge them. A demand that will only increase as the batteries are used and reduce in efficiency requiring more frequent charging. Electrification is fine, but the problem with electric vehicles is when they rely on batteries. 

 

There is already one less toy electric car on the road, Dyson have just announced yesterday that their electric vehicle is not viable.



#421 Ben1445

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:24

There is already one less toy electric car on the road, Dyson have just announced yesterday that their electric vehicle is not viable.

I love how the arrogant moron who makes overpriced and poor quality vacuum cleaners cancelling his EV project before he even showed off a prototype is considered some sort of useful market indicator. 

 

In fact, the cynic will say he (James Dyson) took millions in taxpayer money from UK Government's EV development funds, developed key knowledge in strategic areas for his whole company (batteries, sensors, robotics, machine learning...) and then cancelled the project claiming it is not viable - basically a subsidised R&D exercise. He would certainly not the be the first. 


Edited by Ben1445, 11 October 2019 - 11:37.


#422 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:31

I don’t see how that would work. An engine mechanically connected to the wheels will always be more efficient then an engine connected to a generator that charges the battery that then powers a motor. There is just way too much loss in such a system. I would also agree that it’s not a hybrid though. I’ve never heard anyone call a Diesel locomotive a hybrid but that is essentially the same system; A Diesel engine with an electric transmission.

 

I meant to reply to this.

 

It's true that there are greater losses in an electric transmission, but it could very well be overcome by allowing the ICE to run at it's most efficient power output constantly or until the battery is full. If it is producing more power than is needed it will charge the battery. If it is producing less than required the battery provides the extra power. The constant changing power requirements of an engine on the road (more so on the track) are the greatest source of inefficiency. That's why fuel saving entails driving less aggressively.

 

Diesel-electric locomotives don't tend to use battery storage though. It's a pure electric transmission and the engine must run to the required power output. Diesel locomotives can also use hydraulic or mechanical transmissions.



#423 pdac

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:40

The  future is bright I reckon. No more polluting fossil fuelled dinasaurs!  :kiss:

 

I'm sure that, when Western Europe, the UK, Eastern Europe Australasia and even Canada and the US have switch to EV, I'm sure India and China and Brazil will still be churning out enough pollution from their billions of vehicles to cover it.



#424 pdac

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:42

The classic telltale of someone who has never watched FE. It’s one of the most exciting classes of motorsport around at the moment. Great racing on a regular basis.

 

Yep, but that's the problem. Not many will ever bother to watch it.



#425 Ben1445

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:49

Yep, but that's the problem. Not many will ever bother to watch it.

It was only 5 years or so ago that it was predicted by the sceptics that interest, ticket sales and attendance for electric racing/FE would be so low that it wouldn't make it through a single season.

 

Here's their situation now: https://www.ft.com/c...67-807ebd53ab77

 

- Turned it's first pre-tax profit 

- Sponsorship revenues up 25% on previous year

- Cumulative global audience up 24% on previous year 


Edited by Ben1445, 11 October 2019 - 11:55.


#426 pizzalover

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:24

EVs aren't "ahead of the game". They are a bad solution to the problem of climate change. The heads of car manufacturers have said so themselves, but politicians and bandwagons have dictated the market direction(so far).

 

F1 simply needs to rule use of CO2 neutral synfuels. That would be ahead of the game. 



#427 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:37

It was only 5 years or so ago that it was predicted by the sceptics that interest, ticket sales and attendance for electric racing/FE would be so low that it wouldn't make it through a single season.

 

Here's their situation now: https://www.ft.com/c...67-807ebd53ab77

 

- Turned it's first pre-tax profit 

- Sponsorship revenues up 25% on previous year

- Cumulative global audience up 24% on previous year 

Not trying to knock FE but based purely on your summary (the link is behind a paywall) those aren't particularly impressive stats without context.  I mean FE has been going since 2011 so just turning a profit now is not that amazing, while without knowing the baseline increases of c 25% can be amazing or just about adequate.  It's undeniable that there has been intense marketing and lobbying for FE in recent years so I wouldn't expect much less tbh. 



#428 Pingguest

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:50



EVs aren't "ahead of the game". They are a bad solution to the problem of climate change. The heads of car manufacturers have said so themselves, but politicians and bandwagons have dictated the market direction(so far).

 

F1 simply needs to rule use of CO2 neutral synfuels. That would be ahead of the game. 

 

Formula One would be really ahead of the game if the energy used to propel the car, would be carbon-negative. And yes, carbon-negative are viable.

https://www.recharge...on-fuel-by-2025



#429 Ben1445

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 13:00

Not trying to knock FE but based purely on your summary (the link is behind a paywall) those aren't particularly impressive stats without context.  I mean FE has been going since 2011 so just turning a profit now is not that amazing, while without knowing the baseline increases of c 25% can be amazing or just about adequate.  It's undeniable that there has been intense marketing and lobbying for FE in recent years so I wouldn't expect much less tbh. 

Fair. I had intended the context be implicit from from the statement above it. It's the comments and predictions of the FE sceptics over what it would have been able to achieve compared to what it has achieved. 

 

It was said FE wouldn't make it past its first season or two - it is going into Season 6 

It was said that no one would watch it - the audience is healthy for a motorsport category

It was said that after the initial buzz of interest and enthusiasm that growth would decline - growth is still being recorded 

It was said that it would struggle to turn any sort of profit - it has now turned a pre-tax profit 

It was said that chasing the young demographic would never work - their audience has a much younger make up than traditional motorsports

 

etc. 


Edited by Ben1445, 11 October 2019 - 13:01.


#430 MikeV1987

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 13:43

They should probably get their **** together in this era first, they are still recouping from the last time they pushed for something like this.

#431 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 13:56

They should probably get their **** together in this era first, they are still recouping from the last time they pushed for something like this.

yep agree.  I's like I wrote earlier they don't seem to have learned anything from the last time they pushed for radical technology change



#432 absinthedude

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 14:00

Can I just sit back, happily in the knowledge that my wife owns 40 acres of forest in Missouri....far outweighing the impact of our "carbon footprint" ?



#433 Kalmake

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 15:33

Can I just sit back, happily in the knowledge that my wife owns 40 acres of forest in Missouri....far outweighing the impact of our "carbon footprint" ?

I guess that depends on what would happen to the forest if she didn't own it.



#434 Kalmake

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 15:37

Formula One would be really ahead of the game if the energy used to propel the car, would be carbon-negative. And yes, carbon-negative are viable.

https://www.recharge...on-fuel-by-2025

If that poo project works it would bring back the bio fuel hype. Currently car companies don't seem to have much faith in it as we have heard news of winding down ICE development.



#435 Pingguest

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 17:03

If that poo project works it would bring back the bio fuel hype. Currently car companies don't seem to have much faith in it as we have heard news of winding down ICE development.

 

Both the internal combustion engine and electric drive could be either carbon-positive or carbon-negative. It totally depends on the energy source. If carbon-negative fuels are used, from a climate point of view one should stick with internal combustion engines. These are far less efficient, therefore consume more energy and thus would help us to revert man-made climate change. It would enable mankind to continue life as it is.

 

That being said, the emissions from an internal combustion engine still pollutes the air. This raising concerns for public health, particularly in densely populated areas. Electric drive helps to improve the environment in that respect. And from a technical point of view, an electric motor is superior to an internal combustion engine. But lets stay realistic: it is unlikely that some forms of transportation - for example: aviation - could be come (fully) electric in the near future.



#436 BalanceUT

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 01:57

Could you offer anecdotal evidence to that? In the case of market leader Tesla focusing on energy density mainly due to correlation with cost, it's not been the case. Not since the 2012 Model S at least. the original Roadster was indeed a good bit down on that.

Graph in this Australian government report for one. https://arena.gov.au...attery-storage/

This graph in a published academic paper on the issues: https://www.semantic...2c397d/figure/4