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Racing Point protest against Renault, Japan 2019


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 09:53

There is an official protest lodged by Racing Point against both Renault cars "pre-set lap distance-depent brake bias adjustement system". Team represantatives are required to report to the stewards. #AMuS #F1 #JapaneseGP

 



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#2 SenorSjon

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 09:54

A what?

#3 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 09:59

A what?


I guess a kind of active brake bias system?

#4 Victor_RO

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:09

I guess a kind of active brake bias system?

 

By that naming, it seems like it adjusts the brake bias based on distance covered, so automatically corner-by-corner if you can track it accurately enough.



#5 dimoose

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:12

If Renault have an illegal device. How does Racing Point know and not the stewards?

#6 Victor_RO

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:13

If Renault have an illegal device. How does Racing Point know and not the stewards?

 

Intercepted radio messages? Calculations based on trackside observations? F1 teams have all kinds of ways to spy on each other...



#7 goldenboy

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:14

If Renault have an illegal device. How does Racing Point know and not the stewards?

Lol because one is smarter than the other.

#8 Kalmake

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:27

I don't understand what the benefit would be. It's not too hard for the driver to set bias manually before every braking point?



#9 RPM40

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:29

I don't understand what the benefit would be. It's not too hard for the driver to set bias manually before every braking point?


It is. Theoretically this system could make small adjustments 0.1% in every corner to optimize braking depending on weight transfer. Impressive really.

#10 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:30

I don't understand what the benefit would be. It's not too hard for the driver to set bias manually before every braking point?


The benefit is that you can have a bespoke brake bias setting for every single corner on the track without the driver needing to adjust a thing. This could potentially have benefits relating to ERS harvesting too as perhaps there is scope to more efficiently harvest energy through a brake bias setting...

#11 Montie

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:30

I don't understand what the benefit would be. It's not too hard for the driver to set bias manually before every braking point?


It would be easier for the drivers and such a system would probably be more accurate in adjusting the brake force. Meaning they can brake later and more efficiently.

#12 Kalmake

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:31

It is. Theoretically this system could make small adjustments 0.1% in every corner to optimize braking depending on weight transfer. Impressive really.

Yeah I suppose so if it adjusts during braking/cornering as well.



#13 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:34

If Renault have an illegal device. How does Racing Point know and not the stewards?


Maybe Hulk has fessed up to someone in the paddock seems as Renault have cast him aside?

#14 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:36

Love a good old fashioned technical controversy, especially when it involves Benetton/Renault/Enstone.

Really interesting idea and I agree with those who are speculating as to what it does. It would be a hell of a driver aid. There’s so many adjustments that can be made to an F1 car, taking one out of the driver’s hands is a major driving aid. But, is it legal?

#15 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:41

Can't say it's working great Considering their position

#16 statman

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:42

"pre-set lap distance-depent brake bias adjustement system"

 

did anyone else try to say this quickly 10 times?  :smoking:



#17 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:45

The P-SLD-DBBA System

#18 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:47

 

There is an official protest lodged by Racing Point against both Renault cars "pre-set lap distance-depent brake bias adjustement system". Team represantatives are required to report to the stewards. #AMuS #F1 #JapaneseGP

 

 

@tgruener

FIA has accepted the protest by Racing Point vs. Renault. But there won't be a decision tonight. The technical department of the FIA has time until Wednesday to fully investigate the matter. 

 
#AMuS #F1 #JapeneseGP


#19 Claudius

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:48

P-SLD-DBBAS.
Easy.

Edit: Marklar beat me to it...

Edited by Claudius, 13 October 2019 - 10:49.


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#20 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:55

Pronounced “Pee-sled-bass”.

#21 Baddoer

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:03

Yeah I suppose so if it adjusts during braking/cornering as well.

 

It is. Theoretically this system could make small adjustments 0.1% in every corner to optimize braking depending on weight transfer. Impressive really.

Can it adjust left-right braking balance depending on corner?



#22 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:08

RP presented a 12 page dossier. So maybe they've been sitting on this a while and it could possibly affect more past race results if found guilty?

Edited by JimmyTheFox, 13 October 2019 - 11:09.


#23 teejay

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:16

12 page dossier. They know a lot. Someone's been talking.

#24 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:17

FIA impound Renault ECUs and steering wheels.

https://www.motorspo...nt/4557425/amp/

Edited by JimmyTheFox, 13 October 2019 - 11:18.


#25 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:18

Renault's steering wheels and ECUs impounded and sealed in wake of Racing Point protest

https://t.co/MvAIkrDlLK



#26 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:18

12 pages sounds like nothing in F1 terms :p

#27 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:19

‘PissDabGate’

#28 krapmeister

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:20

But of course.

Because Daniel Ricciardo luck.

#29 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:21

RP presented a 12 page dossier. So maybe they've been sitting on this a while and it could possibly affect more past race results if found guilty?

 

(In answer to a question about are RP saying Renault cheated)

 

Chris Medland Retweeted Paco  

That's exactly what Racing Point is accusing Renault of. And as it's ECU-related, FIA should be able to find out if they have been cheating and where and when. Could be multiple races, so potentially very big consequences.



#30 Celloman

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:23

It would be easier for the drivers and such a system would probably be more accurate in adjusting the brake force. Meaning they can brake later and more efficiently.

Not sure it would bring any absolute performance benefit. Drivers already use some sort of selector that picks the correct bias for each corner quite cleverly, you can see them doing this multiple times each lap. I'd say the main advantage with this alleged system is that drivers can spare their brain from fiddling with yet another button and focus more on the driving part.



#31 Silberpfeil

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:24

Well, that might put an end to the pink-yellow Twitter banter sessions… In all seriousness: This does indeed look like RP has known about this for a while. Looks like they went for maximum impact with the recent upheavals within the company at Renault.

#32 NotAPineapple

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:25

Rules are pretty explicit:

 

11.1.4 Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system, other than any movement of the minimal
flexible parts described in Article 11.4 to 11.6, whilst the car is on the track must be made by
the driver's direct physical input or by the system referred to in Article 11.9, and may not be
pre‐set.


#33 gowebber

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:31

Surely they would have looked at the rules properly before designing the system. Would be daft to think noone would find out if it is illegal, especially in this day and age. Budkowski who pretty much signs off on everything technical at Renault is ex FIA you would think he would be diligent in checking what is and isn't legal.


Edited by gowebber, 13 October 2019 - 12:18.


#34 Spillage

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:33

Serious allegations. I imagine the consequences will be far-reaching if they're found to be true.

#35 GoldenColt

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:33

12 pages sounds like nothing in F1 terms :p

Sounds like an index.



#36 OneAndOnly

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:34

Not sure it would bring any absolute performance benefit. Drivers already use some sort of selector that picks the correct bias for each corner quite cleverly, you can see them doing this multiple times each lap. I'd say the main advantage with this alleged system is that drivers can spare their brain from fiddling with yet another button and focus more on the driving part.

It's not hard to implement it to be easy for driver to use. Just preset bias for every corner and let driver set it for each corner by pressing single button. For 15 braking corners preset 15 settings and that's it. Possibilities are endless.



#37 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:35

I don't understand what the benefit would be. It's not too hard for the driver to set bias manually before every braking point?

Young American Santino Ferrucci had a great year in Indycar until the last race at Laguna Seca when he forgot to reset the brake bias at a race restart and ploughed into ever-innocent Takuma Sato: https://youtu.be/ja1jPIgURXY?t=870

#38 Nobody

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:36

'may not be pre-set'

Edited by Nobody, 13 October 2019 - 11:37.


#39 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:36

Who has crossed over to racing point recently from Renault?

Or over to Mercedes power from Renault power....

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#40 sportyskells

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:37

I wonder how long will we wait for this?



#41 teejay

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:39

Who has crossed over to racing point recently from Renault?

Or over to Mercedes power from Renault power....


Maybe a disgruntled recently unsigned driver has been chatting with friends. Who have then told their engineers.

#42 Kalmake

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:39

Young American Santino Ferrucci had a great year in Indycar until the last race at Laguna Seca when he forgot to reset the brake bias at a race restart and ploughed into ever-innocent Takuma Sato: https://youtu.be/ja1jPIgURXY?t=870

Well, he is known for using cellphone while driving.



#43 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:39

New boss at Renault.... if this ends up as a big scandal & Renault accuses/found to be cheats... could be the catalyst for their exit from F1?

#44 Boxerevo

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:42

But of course.

Because Daniel Ricciardo luck.

haha



#45 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:42

Well, he is known for using cellphone while driving.

Can't blame his multitasking skills then!

#46 goldenboy

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:44

But of course.

Because Daniel Ricciardo luck.

I don't think Ricciardo will be crushed. This Renault venture is more about getting away from Max and putting his name in the spotlight again. Plus the monies :p

#47 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:46

Trying to think what could be going on that isn't obviously illegal. Maybe a system that has a preset for optimum bias at each corner, and leading into each corner the driver presses a switch to change preset? The driver would still be in control, but rather than 2 clicks forward, one back, 3 forward, 4 back etc on a rotary switch it's just click click click with no more thought? Seems like something better suited to perfect conditions in qualifying than an unpredictable race.

#48 Baddoer

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:52

Props for Renault trying something unsual.

Mass dampers, reactive braking system, this..

But if it's illegal it should be banned. :wave:



#49 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:08

1000hp ... special brake bias ... and still really slow!

#50 Peter3hg

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:08

Trying to think what could be going on that isn't obviously illegal. Maybe a system that has a preset for optimum bias at each corner, and leading into each corner the driver presses a switch to change preset? The driver would still be in control, but rather than 2 clicks forward, one back, 3 forward, 4 back etc on a rotary switch it's just click click click with no more thought? Seems like something better suited to perfect conditions in qualifying than an unpredictable race.

 

If it is something like this then I imagine the corner by corner switch would effectively be an offset with a separate master setting to allow overall adjustments for changing conditions.

I think it must be something more automated than that though.