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Racing Point protest against Renault, Japan 2019


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#51 eREr

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:10

New boss at Renault.... if this ends up as a big scandal & Renault accuses/found to be cheats... could be the catalyst for their exit from F1?


This is not race fixing, not crash-gate.

Anyway checking night pole lap videos (e.g. Singapore) where the display on the steering wheel is clearly visible I didn't see any break bias setting changes on the display of Ferrari too, even not bigger hand/finger movements by the driver.

On other pole laps in daylight from Merc, RB I saw only the gears, other things on the display were invisible. While in the past break bias setting had always big numbers on the display.

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#52 theflyingwheel

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:15

Props for Renault trying something unsual.
Mass dampers, reactive braking system, this..
But if it's illegal it should be banned. :wave:


Had it not been for their creative solutions like mass dampers we wouldn’t have a championship under the name Alonso though

#53 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:41

If it is something like this then I imagine the corner by corner switch would effectively be an offset with a separate master setting to allow overall adjustments for changing conditions.
I think it must be something more automated than that though.


Well...what's the bigger cheat, having an automated bias or giving the drivers corner presets? Is it just something they never thought they would get caught using?

#54 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:44

Maybe Hulk has fessed up to someone in the paddock seems as Renault have cast him aside?

And there is most definitely a Hulk/Racing Point link, same with Ocon, albeit he wouldn't have ratted out his new team.

And then there is Sainz, who adds an extra dimension with the WCC battle, but crucially also helps tie in the (new) Racing Point-McLaren-Mercedes link.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is something that Mercedes have found out and passed on to Racing Point.

I doubt anything will come from it. The FIA don't care about midfielders, let alone midfielders who are so god damn slow they can plead innocence because "it didn't give us an advantage!".

Edited by TomNokoe, 13 October 2019 - 12:49.


#55 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:47


(In answer to a question about are RP saying Renault cheated)

Chris Medland@ChrisMedlandF1 29m29 minutes ago


More

Chris Medland Retweeted Paco


That's exactly what Racing Point is accusing Renault of. And as it's ECU-related, FIA should be able to find out if they have been cheating and where and when. Could be multiple races, so potentially very big consequences.

Only if they can prove it - in the previous races - as do they still have the data from previous races?

#56 shure

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:48

And there is most definitely a Hulk/Racing Point link, same with Ocon, albeit he wouldn't have ratted out his new team

And then there is Sainz, who adds an extra dimension with the WCC battle, but crucially also helps tie in the Mercedes link.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is something that Mercedes have found out and passed on to Racing Point.

I really hope that is not the case because if Hulk did pass the info on Renault would have little choice but to summarily terminate him for breach of contract and it would be a sad end to their partnership.  It would also lead his next team to be a little cautious when sharing information with him in future as they wouldn't be able to trust him.  All in all it wouldn't be good for Hulk at all if he was the leak



#57 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:49

Had it not been for their creative solutions like mass dampers we wouldn’t have a championship under the name Alonso though

It doesn’t make it right though does it?

#58 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:50

I really hope that is not the case because if Hulk did pass the info on Renault would have little choice but to summarily terminate him for breach of contract and it would be a sad end to their partnership. It would also lead his next team to be a little cautious when sharing information with him in future as they wouldn't be able to trust him. All in all it wouldn't be good for Hulk at all if he was the leak


It's just a little bit of mischievous speculation, Hulk doesn't have a seat for next year anyway.

If it really was Hulk who spilled the beans (I doubt it), then that would be two drivers in 10 years (Piquet) who have ratted out their old teams :lol:

#59 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:54

Had it not been for their creative solutions like mass dampers we wouldn’t have a championship under the name Alonso though

But the mass damper was legal for 1 and a half seasons, and even that required a spurios bit of reasoning . At this point the complaint appears to be about something that is explicitly not allowed.

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#60 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 13:05

But the mass damper was legal for 1 and a half seasons, and even that required a spurios bit of reasoning . At this point the complaint appears to be about something that is explicitly not allowed.


What makes it legal though, that it hadn't been deemed illegal yet? It was moveable ballast the whole time which is illegal, even though it was banned for moveable aero.

#61 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 13:19

Maybe a disgruntled recently unsigned driver has been chatting with friends. Who have then told their engineers.

My guess. He's got no seat, F1 career is done, what's to lose? Doesn't strike me as the type to care much either, given Renault have discarded him.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 13 October 2019 - 13:22.


#62 Quickshifter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 13:22

This is not a frivolous off the cuff protest going by the way RP have prepared a detailed and comprehensive twelve page protest. The fact that FIA have admitted the protest after a brief preliminary enquiry suggests this is not going to go away easily.

If proven t i think it will not just be a disqualification from the race which is obvious but also potentially more because of the alleged deliberate obfuscation and breach of sporting and technical regulations.

I repeat it has to be proven first but given that Renault are having to resort to a detailed and complex reply it shows there is definitely some weight to the allegations

#63 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 13:31

What makes it legal though, that it hadn't been deemed illegal yet? It was moveable ballast the whole time which is illegal, even though it was banned for moveable aero.

It was legal because it had been cleared by the FIA the previous season. I agree it should have banned as movable ballast, but it wasn't, and the reason it was banned was appalling.

#64 NixxxoN

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 13:55

I don't understand what the benefit would be. It's not too hard for the driver to set bias manually before every braking point?

With so many buttons and stuff they have to do during the race, this automatic brake bias adjustment system would be like an enormous relief for the drivers.

#65 NixxxoN

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 14:04

It was legal because it had been cleared by the FIA the previous season. I agree it should have banned as movable ballast, but it wasn't, and the reason it was banned was appalling.

Yep, it was banned basically because other teams didnt have a clue on how to copy it properly, which is a bit lame but thats how it went

#66 Risil

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 14:20

What's the reason for this kind of system being illegal in the first place? I would have thought something that keeps a driver's hands on the steering wheel and not fiddling with dials would be a positive, safety-wise.



#67 jannyg

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 14:26

Sounds serious

#68 Viryfan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 14:28

Let's see some Marcin Budkowski magic from his FIA experience.... :rotfl:  :rotfl:



#69 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 14:44

Let's see some Marcin Budkowski magic from his FIA experience.... :rotfl: :rotfl:

Based on what Laurent Mekies delivered on the Vettel case he is going to ask Karun for his opinion? ;)

#70 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 15:03

Hulk will still be very friendly with the guys from his force india days. Renault have ditched him even though he’s been doing a solid job for them... he’s maybe had a few beers with his old crew and spilled the beans.

#71 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 15:11

I mean I dont rate Hulkenberg as a person at all, but to speculate so much that he's been whispering stuff that can end really ugly for the team that paid him handsomely just in an act of revenge because they didnt extent with him seems a bit much, when he personally has nothing to gain from this (yes, Piquet jr. has neither, but Piquet jr was proper race fixing, not secret illegal-y stuff that probably everyone is doing to some extent). I dont say that it is impossible of course, especially if he is not aware of the consequences, but I would rather assume that Racing Point has been carefully studying their opponents, and maybe new staff coming from there told them something.



#72 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 15:23

This is not a frivolous off the cuff protest going by the way RP have prepared a detailed and comprehensive twelve page protest. The fact that FIA have admitted the protest after a brief preliminary enquiry suggests this is not going to go away easily.

If proven t i think it will not just be a disqualification from the race which is obvious but also potentially more because of the alleged deliberate obfuscation and breach of sporting and technical regulations.

I repeat it has to be proven first but given that Renault are having to resort to a detailed and complex reply it shows there is definitely some weight to the allegations

For that to happen then surely they would have to prove it was used for more than one race?

#73 Jellyfishcake

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 15:38

I mean I dont rate Hulkenberg as a person at all, but to speculate so much that he's been whispering stuff that can end really ugly for the team that paid him handsomely just in an act of revenge because they didnt extent with him seems a bit much, when he personally has nothing to gain from this (yes, Piquet jr. has neither, but Piquet jr was proper race fixing, not secret illegal-y stuff that probably everyone is doing to some extent). I dont say that it is impossible of course, especially if he is not aware of the consequences, but I would rather assume that Racing Point has been carefully studying their opponents, and maybe new staff coming from there told them something.

 

Whilst I agree with your post in terms of doubting Hulk would be the one to release information, I'm a interested to know what he did to make you not think much of him as a person?



#74 ensign14

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 15:41

I wonder if this is a reason why McLaren have switched back to Mercedes...

 

...because I also wonder whether this is something reaaaaallllllly serious and could lead to Renault withdrawing...



#75 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 15:43

I wonder if this is a reason why McLaren have switched back to Mercedes...

...because I also wonder whether this is something reaaaaallllllly serious and could lead to Renault withdrawing...


Wouldn’t it depend on if they can prove it has been used at all
- and if it was used more than once? We don’t even know if Renault used it? Do we? So it’s far to early to judge, it could be something that Renault looked at but didn’t use? Innocent until proven guilty?

#76 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:06

Whilst I agree with your post in terms of doubting Hulk would be the one to release information, I'm a interested to know what he did to make you not think much of him as a person?

Nothing special really, and perhaps not rating as a person is a bit exagerated, but when I used to go to F1 races he appeared always as one of the less pleasant guys, his enitre Williams exit also left a sour taste to me, and I cant really find anything positive about him, stuff like him grinning in Monza about holding up the whole field and causing dangerous situation riles me up, for example.

I do rate him as a driver though, even if I find him overrated  :p  



#77 TheMessiah

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:25

I wonder if this is a reason why McLaren have switched back to Mercedes...

 

...because I also wonder whether this is something reaaaaallllllly serious and could lead to Renault withdrawing...

 

It does make you wonder....



#78 Bleu

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:41

If the system is as distance-based as it is, I wonder how it will react if driver shortcuts a chicane or runs much wide, so the lap distance will be different compared to what it is supposed to be.



#79 CSF

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:43

The system sounds like a great piece of innovation to me... 



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#80 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:49

If the system is as distance-based as it is, I wonder how it will react if driver shortcuts a chicane or runs much wide, so the lap distance will be different compared to what it is supposed to be.

I seem to recall an Alonso incident (spin?) in a McLaren which hinted at this kind of system on some sort of traction control?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 13 October 2019 - 16:49.


#81 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:50

The system sounds like a great piece of innovation to me...

Are you saying its OK do something that breaks the rules if you can call it innovative?

#82 CSF

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:53

Are you saying its OK do something that breaks the rules if you can call it innovative?

 

 

No, sure if its outside of the rules then fair enough, but a system like that sounds pretty clever in its inception. 



#83 Jvr

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:57

Sounds like Cyril might be in some kind of troubles.

 

If proven accurate, I'd be not very surprised, though.



#84 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:17

If the system is as distance-based as it is, I wonder how it will react if driver shortcuts a chicane or runs much wide, so the lap distance will be different compared to what it is supposed to be.

 

I'd imagine you could reset such a system in a situation like that.



#85 Reinmuster

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:23

12 page dossier. They know a lot. Someone's been talking.

 

did someone from technical department had been sacked from Renault recently?



#86 NotAPineapple

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:24

you can use gps and other driver inputs to correct the lap distance

#87 CountDooku

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:25

What other team has recently experienced a huge upturn in chassis performance in-season...?
I predict lots of industrial shredding of steering wheels and ECUs in....Maranelo!

#88 Giz

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:30

12 page dossier. They know a lot. Someone's been talking.


Really big font

#89 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:31

did someone from technical department had been sacked from Renault recently?

AMuS suggests that the info is from a new-hired staff from Renault to Racing Point.

Officially RP says that they just studied the onboards.

#90 Viryfan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:32

Sounds like Cyril might be in some kind of troubles.

 

If proven accurate, I'd be not very surprised, though.

 

Well Mercedes was caught cheating in 2013, was it the end of the world?



#91 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:34

What other team has recently experienced a huge upturn in chassis performance in-season...?
I predict lots of industrial shredding of steering wheels and ECUs in....Maranelo!

Has Renault had a huge upturn?

#92 Viryfan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:36

AMuS suggests that the info is from a new-hired staff from Renault to Racing Point.

Officially RP says that they just studied the onboards.

 

Also AMuS said that in terms of results the worst case scenario would be the loss of the 9 points.



#93 Viryfan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:37

Has Renault had a huge upturn?

 

Both Renault made it to Q3 four times in a row since the summer break.

 

Their best qualy records since 2016, they also recorded their best results since their comeback at Monza.

 

So yeah they had some sort of upturn.



#94 cpbell

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:42

Both Renault made it to Q3 four times in a row since the summer break.

 

Their best qualy records since 2016, they also recorded their best results since their comeback at Monza.

 

So yeah they had some sort of upturn.

In addition, according to Ricciardo earlier on the Channel 4 highlights, his qualifying position this weeked wasn't an acurate reflection of their performance level; it was due to an suspension problem that was presumably missed.



#95 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:59

This is not race fixing, not crash-gate.

Anyway checking night pole lap videos (e.g. Singapore) where the display on the steering wheel is clearly visible I didn't see any break bias setting changes on the display of Ferrari too, even not bigger hand/finger movements by the driver.

On other pole laps in daylight from Merc, RB I saw only the gears, other things on the display were invisible. While in the past break bias setting had always big numbers on the display.

Mercedes still had their full-screen brake bias screen here: Hamilton 2019 pole at Hockenheim https://youtu.be/Gh2pzFreJ9k
Vettel got a quick "BS" (?) screen before and after turns 9–10: Vettel 2018 pole at Bahrain https://youtu.be/LxRvrkXIZcY
Leclerc had... no brake bias info on his display as far as I can tell, but a bright LED was lit around turns 9–10: Leclerc 2019 pole at Bahrain https://youtu.be/xTezG7LJL5o
Hamilton was using his right thumb, and I suppose Ferrari might have a button on the back of the steering wheel? I don't know.

#96 Viryfan

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 19:16

If Renault indeed breached regulations, i can't see why they would get a heavier penalty than Alfa Romeo for cheating at Hockhenheim.

 

At worst it will be DSQ, IMHO.

 

Anything heavier would be a joke.



#97 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 19:19

The thing is Racing Point has prepared this protest for a while, so it is about something that affected more races than this.

Now whether you can prove it beyond Suzuka is a different question, though.

Though I doubt that much will happen, the FIA isnt really prone to dishing out penalties retrospectively 



#98 Talisman

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 19:20

Maybe a disgruntled recently unsigned driver has been chatting with friends. Who have then told their engineers.

 

So that said driver ensures he won't be in F1 again?

 

More likely its a junior engineer whose name won't be known to anyone outside the sport, it usually is when information leaks from team to team.  Especially so if RP have enough information for a 12 page dossier.

 

Agree that it could be a significant performance enhancer over a race distance especially if it can be used to optimise harvesting too.



#99 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 19:44

I'd have to say an 'automatic' brake bias system would have so many variables that it would badly mismanage itself with any sort of change. A VSC, pit stop, off track excursion, held up in traffic, you name it. Basically for it to perform flawlessly it would have to know the exact weight of fuel at all times, any variation of fuel consumption and you may as well turn it off. Besides that, no system like that would weigh so little as to offset it's use. The amount of sensors and motors to move itself would be too many to not be easily detected.

Interesting however.


Edited by whitewaterMkII, 13 October 2019 - 19:47.


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#100 teejay

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 23:24

I'd have to say an 'automatic' brake bias system would have so many variables that it would badly mismanage itself with any sort of change. A VSC, pit stop, off track excursion, held up in traffic, you name it. Basically for it to perform flawlessly it would have to know the exact weight of fuel at all times, any variation of fuel consumption and you may as well turn it off. Besides that, no system like that would weigh so little as to offset it's use. The amount of sensors and motors to move itself would be too many to not be easily detected.

Interesting however.

 

Knowing precise amount of fuel on board would be incredibly easy these days.