666 replies to this topic

[ExFlagMan]

Flag marshals tend to work in pairs - one on blue facing the oncoming traffic and the other on yellow, facing the other way, so any delay is marginal.

 

This is sometimes not possible as a result of a shortage of marshals, but that should not be a problem at F1 level.

 

I have seen photos of the FIA approved light control panel and it looked quite complicated and I am not sure how easy it would be to use whilst wearing gloves and also trying to wave a yellow flag at the same time.

 

I found this photo of the marshal control panel on pistonheads - it dates from 2012 but it was produced by the company that appears to be the only one producing an FIA T1 grade panel control systems requifred for F1,

 

http://formula1.file...day_4.jpg?w=468

 

One concern I have is that Silverstone was reported to have 16 light panels round the track at last years races, but I am pretty sure there are more than 16 flag points round the circuit, so it would appear that could be a potential problem area.

 

 

Edited by ExFlagMan, 08 June 2021 - 10:44.

[Ferrim]

Fair to who? Red flag and the win to Verstappen could be seen as fair as the crash was totally out of his hands.

As well as red flag and points to Stroll, I guess. Failures are part of the game. You can't get a fair outcome for everyone, but under the circumstances I would have gone for that.

[Fastcake]

I don’t know, but I don’t feel the focus should have been green flag racing in the slightest after Max’s crash. Yep there’s a totaled Red Bull and driver on the circuit but move along, nothing to see here, back to green flag racing is certainly not the right signal.... As you all said earlier, the marshals cannot throw flags Willy nilly. They need permission from race control. But that’s what led to an improper looking moment with debris clearly strewn across the track, a car and driver in the fastest part of the track, and green flags still being shown.

 

If you start yellow flagging sectors after a crash that are clear, you’d likely just increase the problem of drivers disrespecting yellow flags. The flags are not meant to be used just for the show of those watching at home.

 

Fair to who? Red flag and the win to Verstappen could be seen as fair as the crash was totally out of his hands.

It would be a bad idea if race control started handing out wins based on a personal judgement of fairness.

[andyscoot]

 It would be a bad idea if race control started handing out wins based on a personal judgement of fairness.

 

Exactly.

 

The cause of the crash isn't yet known. We don't know whether the tyre failed because of poor construction on Pirelli's part or if it was debris/driver related (going over kerbs etc). 

[Clatter]

It would be a bad idea if race control started handing out wins based on a personal judgement of fairness.

I agree, but the post I replied to said finishing under the SC would have been fairer. Hence the question, to who.

Edited by Clatter, 08 June 2021 - 12:23.

[WOT]

In Baku have the Stewards set a precedent here? Had STR and VER's accidents happened say around the lap 40 mark, would the cars have kept circulating behind the Safety Car until green flag conditions?

 

Will future incidents like this be "red flagged" to create our "sprint races"?

 

Was the race red flagged for "The Show" or perceived safety conditions?

 

If for perceived safety reasons, does this mean that every time we have a tyre failure they are going to red flag a race to let them change tyres?

 

Or will Pirelli get their act together?

[ANF]

Does anyone know what takes precedence - the flag or the light panel.  I wonder what would heve been shown if Verstappens car had slid a bit further and ended up between the light panel and the flag point.f a driver getting a penalty where his onboard showed he passed a green flag that was followed by the green light panel.

None, the light panel is like an extra flag.

From every Race Director's event notes:
"The FIA track light panels have been installed in the positions shown on the circuit map. In accordance with Appendix H to the ISC the light signals have the same meaning as flag signals."

So if Verstappen's car would have stopped after the light panel that was flashing green, it would have meant the "track is clear" although it was not. (But the car did stop a long way away from it.)

[gillesfan76]

If we want to understand Masi’s competence, or lack thereof, we only have to see his latest response after Nico Rosberg - an actual recent F1 driver and WDC - said that the Baku pit entry is dangerous. Nico went on to explain technically why he finds it dangerous and goes on to say he’s always found Baku pit entry the most dangerous of all the tracks.

 

https://www.autospor...-entry/6547371/

 

Vettel said similar https://www.racefans...-speed-crashes/

 

Masi’s response is literally that he disagrees because Baku is FIA Grade 1 circuit. So forget about actually considering the technical aspect of what Nico says, just dismiss it instantly because if it’s been homologated by the FIA, it must be good.

 

Not to mention the fact that it’s not just Nico saying this. Most of the drivers said the same back in 2016 when they first saw the track https://www.motorspo...-787672/787672/

 

Masi being in that position is enough to understand how the FIA is run.

[ExFlagMan]

None, the light panel is like an extra flag.

From every Race Director's event notes:
"The FIA track light panels have been installed in the positions shown on the circuit map. In accordance with Appendix H to the ISC the light signals have the same meaning as flag signals."

So if Verstappen's car would have stopped after the light panel that was flashing green, it would have meant the "track is clear" although it was not. (But the car did stop a long way away from it.)

 

Which just shows what happens when people with very little, if any, experience of working track-side are allowed to change systems that have been working pretty well for many years.

[PayasYouRace]

If we want to understand Masi’s competence, or lack thereof, we only have to see his latest response after Nico Rosberg - an actual recent F1 driver and WDC - said that the Baku pit entry is dangerous. Nico went on to explain technically why he finds it dangerous and goes on to say he’s always found Baku pit entry the most dangerous of all the tracks.

 

https://www.autospor...-entry/6547371/

 

Vettel said similar https://www.racefans...-speed-crashes/

 

Masi’s response is literally that he disagrees because Baku is FIA Grade 1 circuit. So forget about actually considering the technical aspect of what Nico says, just dismiss it instantly because if it’s been homologated by the FIA, it must be good.

 

Not to mention the fact that it’s not just Nico saying this. Most of the drivers said the same back in 2016 when they first saw the track https://www.motorspo...-787672/787672/

 

Masi being in that position is enough to understand how the FIA is run.

 

If I may borrow my analysis from another thread, I don't think much of Rosberg's opinion.

 

Walls don't have peaks so I assume you mean the end of the wall, which I've labelled "A".

 

 

That is the most dangerous part of the wall, but it is also shielded from oncoming cars by the track wall, which I've labelled "B".

 

 

In order to hit the wall at "A", you have to be going slow enough that you can make the turn around point "B" to hit it, following the route I've labelled "X". That's not going to happen at 330 km/h. A car crashing at 330 km/h tends to continue in the direction it's travelling, with only a small velocity to perpendicular to the track. Verstappen hit the wall, but he didn't hit it at 330 km/h perpendicular to it. His perpendicular velocity was small because a crashing car cannot turn like it's being driven on rails.

 

Hence, a car crashing at 330 km/h is most likely to follow path "Y", it will hit the Tecpro barriers and it will be a hard hit, but two things will happen. 1. The barriers will absorb a lot of energy from the crash. 2. They will deflect the car along the track, and it will slow down more gradually as we saw with Stroll and Verstappen, which is the safest way.

 

So far from being crazy, you can see how the pit entrance has been cleverly designed to hide the end of the wall "A" from cars approaching at maximum speed.

 

The Perez crash is irrelevant. The wall at the exit of the tunnel isn't shielded at all by any other walls.

[Brackets]

If I may borrow my analysis from another thread, I don't think much of Rosberg's opinion.

I still can't get round the fact he used a video-game still (well, technically, he stopped the car rather than freeze the feed ) to prove his point, when actual pictures from the track disprove his opinion.

 

I wonder if back in his days, a whopping five years ago, that pitlane entry ~was~ an affront.

 

(Yes: this is a challenge for people to find pictures prior to '17. Prizes are eternal fame and a like)

[Paa]

 

In Baku have the Stewards set a precedent here? Had STR and VER's accidents happened say around the lap 40 mark, would the cars have kept circulating behind the Safety Car until green flag conditions?

 

Will future incidents like this be "red flagged" to create our "sprint races"?

 

Was the race red flagged for "The Show" or perceived safety conditions?

 

If for perceived safety reasons, does this mean that every time we have a tyre failure they are going to red flag a race to let them change tyres?

 

Or will Pirelli get their act together?

 

 

No, the red flag was thrown so teams can change the tyres at that point it was not knows how risky was to continue on used tyres.

Under normal SC conditions nobody would have gone for the pitstop to lose one billion positions few laps before the end.

 

Also I think the topic is a bit derailed. The debate should not be about to fined the precise place where to show the yellow/green flags, but rather why was not an SC/VSC deployed at the time when a driver was out of the car in the fastest part of the track with considerate tyre explosion risk.

[WOT]

No, the red flag was thrown so teams can change the tyres at that point it was not knows how risky was to continue on used tyres.

Under normal SC conditions nobody would have gone for the pitstop to lose one billion positions few laps before the end.

 

Also I think the topic is a bit derailed. The debate should not be about to fined the precise place where to show the yellow/green flags, but rather why was not an SC/VSC deployed at the time when a driver was out of the car in the fastest part of the track with considerate tyre explosion risk.

 

I wasn't talking about three laps before the end. I had said if it had happened at the 40 lap mark....

[gillesfan76]

If I may borrow my analysis from another thread, I don't think much of Rosberg's opinion.

 

That’s a good analysis but it would be nice to see an overhead view. The perspective is a bit skewed in the second picture.

 

I wonder how quickly drivers can come in to take your path X? I don’t think it’s an issue of hitting point A coming down the main straight when not pitting, and I agree that the angle of the barriers past point A seems to safe. So I think the main danger is if something goes wrong while arriving towards point B.

[Paa]

I wasn't talking about three laps before the end. I had said if it had happened at the 40 lap mark....

 

You asked if they set a precedent.

I replied that I didn't believe so, because the consideration behind the red flag was not the number of laps, but to give people the chance to change the tyres.

So the lap count is irrelevant.

OF course, it is difficult to find any consistence in the decision making, so next time they can do basically anything.

[mkad]

What was the reasoning for not punishing Sainz for dangerously rejoining the track? The incident can be seen at about 45s in this clip: https://streamable.com/b69vb3

[Clatter]

What was the reasoning for not punishing Sainz for dangerously rejoining the track? The incident can be seen at about 45s in this clip: https://streamable.com/b69vb3

 

That could have been very nasty. Really don't see how that avoided a penalty.