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Race direction / race control / stewarding incompetence


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#51 chrisj

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 23:37

 

Let's start of with how the Verstappen/Leclerc clash was managed ...

 
... Lap 3 ...
 
So they only take like 3 minutes to decide that no investigation is necessary, despite relevant footage proving otherwise was in the meantime shown on the live feed.
 
You lost me with your bias right there. No penalty was the right call, they blew it later. If every mistake is a penalty, the no one will be left on the grid. They're racing. Let them race. I don't even want to hear about stewards unless the offense is obviously intentiional (Senna, Schumacher). Drivers will sort themselves out.


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#52 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 06:22

They should've shown a meatball flag on lap 1, that's clear, and they didn't.


I love how you guys say "meatball flag" like it's a serious term.

That being the case, can the black and white warning flag be the meathead flag? Thanks.

#53 JeePee

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 06:28

I love how you guys say "meatball flag" like it's a serious term.

That being the case, can the black and white warning flag be the meathead flag? Thanks.

Meatball is a lot shorter than 'black flag with an orange disc' and everybody knows what it means, since it's been used for ages.



#54 Marklar

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 06:36



Let's start of with how the Verstappen/Leclerc clash was managed ...

... Lap 3 ...

So they only take like 3 minutes to decide that no investigation is necessary, despite relevant footage proving otherwise was in the meantime shown on the live feed.

You lost me with your bias right there. No penalty was the right call, they blew it later. If every mistake is a penalty, the no one will be left on the grid. They're racing. Let them race. I don't even want to hear about stewards unless the offense is obviously intentiional (Senna, Schumacher). Drivers will sort themselves out.

90 % of this forum will disagree with you, so you can hardly accusse anyone of bias.

#55 Lights

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 08:51

 

 

Let's start of with how the Verstappen/Leclerc clash was managed ...

 
... Lap 3 ...
 
So they only take like 3 minutes to decide that no investigation is necessary, despite relevant footage proving otherwise was in the meantime shown on the live feed.
 

 

You lost me with your bias right there. No penalty was the right call, they blew it later. If every mistake is a penalty, the no one will be left on the grid. They're racing. Let them race. I don't even want to hear about stewards unless the offense is obviously intentiional (Senna, Schumacher). Drivers will sort themselves out.

 

Completely unclear to me why I lost you with bias right there. All I claimed there was that there was relevant footage that proved it should at least be investigated. If that is what you disagree with me on, then just say that instead of calling me biased. Because this was clearly not about drivers, it's about the FIA.



#56 Lights

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 20:07

FIA tell [BBC's Jennie Gow] no investigation into Verstappen

 

Of course, "no investigation necessary". Heard that one before.

 

Why even investigate a driver going full throttle next to a crashed car, right? 

 

Why even investigate why the yellow flag system clearly wasn't working properly?

 

Another one to add to the list. And the weekend isn't over yet.


Edited by Lights, 26 October 2019 - 20:08.


#57 SCUDmissile

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 20:10

This moron Masi will get a driver killed.

Part of why this has come about is that stewards have always been afraid of punishing title contenders or the top drivers, but that kind of carry-on has to stop.

#58 Lights

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 20:32

https://mobile.twitt...7302026241?s=19

"FIA taking another look at Verstappen's data following his provocative comments in the press conference. #MexicanGP"

Why not look at the data properly the first time around, FIA?

#59 Heyli

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 20:35

https://mobile.twitt...7302026241?s=19

"FIA taking another look at Verstappen's data following his provocative comments in the press conference. #MexicanGP"

Why not look at the data properly the first time around, FIA?

"we looked at the data an he lifted"

 

That should be a rather easy thing to see. Either he lifted, or he didnt. I´m not sure how comments in a press conference can have influence on that specific data...



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#60 Sterzo

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 21:58

One odd thing is that they don't seem to enforce the 107% qualifying rule. Kubica is outside it today, but there's a long (and not very distinguished) list of poor so-and-sos who have been allowed to race despite being too slow. I can understand having a 107% qualifying rule. I can understand not having a 107% qualifying rule. I can't understand having a 107% qualifying rule and not applying it.



#61 Kalmake

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 22:04

One odd thing is that they don't seem to enforce the 107% qualifying rule. Kubica is outside it today, but there's a long (and not very distinguished) list of poor so-and-sos who have been allowed to race despite being too slow. I can understand having a 107% qualifying rule. I can understand not having a 107% qualifying rule. I can't understand having a 107% qualifying rule and not applying it.

It's 107% of the fastest Q1 time. Kubica was below that.



#62 P123

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 22:13

Masi just isn't up to the job. Probably a bit drunk on 'let them race'. And the actual FIA electronic warning flag system seems unfit for purpose.

#63 CountDooku

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 22:22

No worries folks, we have the halo. 🤬
Stupid race direction got Jules killed. Stupid race direction could have killed Hamilton two weeks ago. And now we have max going full beans round an extremely fast corner with a stricken car. But of course nothing will happen!

#64 OvDrone

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 22:26

Masi just isn't up to the job. Probably a bit drunk on 'let them race'. And the actual FIA electronic warning flag system seems unfit for purpose.

 

'Let them race' wasn't there in Montreal. I'm not sure it's here either. Or if it ever was. This is 'let them whatever'. Whatever has no place in Motorsport.



#65 Lerdes

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 22:38

Well earned penalty for Max. Vettel lifted in front of him and he didn't. Then tell the world he didn't lifted. Just stupid.

#66 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 00:03

So if you're unfortunate enough to have to replace a part in the PU, that's a 5-place penalty. But if you ignore yellow flags and put the lives of the marshals at risk, it's only 3.



#67 SCUDmissile

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 00:09

these fools only punished him because he threw their incompetence in their faces and dared them to do it.

 

At least Liberty/FIA have balls when it comes to the 2021 rule changes, hopefully it will eventually trickle down to these kind of stewarding issues. This system is not fit for purpose.



#68 Garndell

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:10

Masi just isn't up to the job. Probably a bit drunk on 'let them race'. And the actual FIA electronic warning flag system seems unfit for purpose.

 

To be fair to Masi he wasn't fully trained when Charlie died (probably still isn't).  The sheer fact that the FIA had nobody fully trained is a pox on their house.



#69 Flasheart

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:23

That’s a weak penalty. He deliberately disregarded a safety directive (then laughed about it), potentially putting lives at risk. Surely that’s worth more than three places, and two penalty points. DSQ from qualifying, and three points (I think that’s the most they can give at any one time yes?) would be closer to the mark.

#70 pingu666

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:46

its a blind bend too. really bad from max, and then to take so long to get it sorted... ugh.



#71 Lights

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 06:21

these fools only punished him because he threw their incompetence in their faces and dared them to do it.

 

Yeah that's the worrying thing. It appears as if had the driver in question not spoken so bluntly about it, the driver would've gotten away with it.

 

This is the second time in 2 weeks where the FIA has gone from "We won't investigate it", *something to happen*, to them investigating it and it taking 3+ hours to reach a verdict that should have been reached in the first place.

 

They have all the video and telemetry that was needed to decide these cases, and through their own incompetence the drivers twice almost got away with it. It's just a matter of time before a driver does get away with it if this continues.



#72 Lights

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 06:39

Additionally, the way the marshalling sensors broke due to a car crashing is a bad sign to me. These sensors should be super reliable. I understand that this doesn't remove the fact that marshalls can wave a flag, but it's not the same because drivers have grown used to the huge yellow LED lights around the track and yellow lights on their steering wheels, which are far more obvious for the driver. Max said he hadn't seen the yellow flag, and while technically it's his responsibility to see it, it's plausible a driver can miss 1 waved flag, especially when they have grown used to the LED lights and steering wheel lights to inform them. Regardless of the driver in question needing to be penalized or not, it can cause dangerous situations.

 

Hopefully the FIA understands this is a serious issue that can't happen again, instead of it just writing it off as a one-off.



#73 TheFish

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 07:22

The staggering bit to me is how it takes the stewards hours to come to a conclusion that everyone at home sees instantly. As soon as Verstappen improved whilst Bottas is there like that... it’s clear he hasn’t lifted. Even if he did lift, it wasn’t enough in the circumstances.

Any fan of f1 knows that.

#74 ANF

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 08:04

Just to play devil's advocate... Jennie Gow's initial quote from the FIA was "no investigation", not "no investigation necessary". Could it be that Masi, the race director, hadn't asked the stewards to investigate the matter yet? Perhaps he was busy looking into whether the destroyed run-off area sensors could be repaired for the Porsche race that was coming up? And qualifying was over anyway.

#75 Lights

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 08:27

Just to play devil's advocate... Jennie Gow's initial quote from the FIA was "no investigation", not "no investigation necessary". Could it be that Masi, the race director, hadn't asked the stewards to investigate the matter yet? Perhaps he was busy looking into whether the destroyed run-off area sensors could be repaired for the Porsche race that was coming up? And qualifying was over anyway.

 

Good points. I shouldn't have twisted her words. I really got it as her saying there would not be an investigation.

 

This is supported by the later quote of  "FIA taking another look at Verstappen's data". 

 

But I have to be fair and admit this is all hearsay by reporters, not statements from FIA. It's just that I have a good sense of how the FIA works by now and sadly the worst interpretation of how they could mean it is definitely believable.



#76 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 08:52

It would be much simpler for everyone if they just had a rule that said you cannot set a time if part of your lap involved driving through a yellow sector. That way drivers would know that their time would be deleted and would therefore not have any reason not to respect the yellow. The stewards would only need to establish which cars were affected by the yellow.



#77 Mishvili

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 09:08

It would be much simpler for everyone if they just had a rule that said you cannot set a time if part of your lap involved driving through a yellow sector. That way drivers would know that their time would be deleted and would therefore not have any reason not to respect the yellow. The stewards would only need to establish which cars were affected by the yellow.


Isn’t part of the problem that most of the rules are written generically - ie. to cover all driving contexts - practice, qualifying, races etc? And bear in mind that yellow flags can sometimes appear for a very short period of time - they aren’t always triggered by a crash, sometimes by something as minor as a driver getting a bit out of shape. To disqualify entire laps on the basis of this would be a bit harsh (especially in eg. Changeable track conditions).

#78 Zava

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 09:56

No worries folks, we have the halo.
Stupid race direction got Jules killed. Stupid race direction could have killed Hamilton two weeks ago. And now we have max going full beans round an extremely fast corner with a stricken car. But of course nothing will happen!

sorry, what? I don't remember last weekend very well so I'd need a reminder on this. thanks in advance!



#79 anyeis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 09:58

sorry, what? I don't remember last weekend very well so I'd need a reminder on this. thanks in advance!

 

Leclerc although he was allegedly told to pit..

 

Maybe Masi is getting pushed around a bit too much by the drivers "let them race".. clearly he didnt want to take Max pole away


Edited by anyeis, 27 October 2019 - 09:59.


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#80 Zava

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 09:59

Leclerc although he was allegedly told to pit..

 

Maybe Masi is getting pushed around a bit too much by the drivers "let them race"..

ah, right, I remember that. close shave with the debris destroying the right mirror on Hamilton's car, that was pretty scary.



#81 joegsmro

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 10:02

we must accept that f1 is a show and the show must go on but the actors of this show are the drivers ( at least the living part of it ) , the safety of our drivers must be the first concern in the ruling .I will not comment on Max penalty but two weeks ago I was praying for Lewis life ... Many of you will say that I am melodramatic but just remember Massa`s incident at Hungaroring when a loose spring from a car in front broke his helmet / visor and induced severe injury. All cars that are danger to the other participants and marshals and public too must be black and white flagged immediately and return to box to allow the engineers to repair / make it safe again ... if not black flag .


Edited by joegsmro, 27 October 2019 - 10:11.


#82 ANF

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 10:13

Good points. I shouldn't have twisted her words. I really got it as her saying there would not be an investigation.
 
This is supported by the later quote of  "FIA taking another look at Verstappen's data". 
 
But I have to be fair and admit this is all hearsay by reporters, not statements from FIA. It's just that I have a good sense of how the FIA works by now and sadly the worst interpretation of how they could mean it is definitely believable.

Yeah, Gow's tweets certainly implied that the stewards changed their mind. But I guess it might have been her jumping to conclusions when she was told there was no investigation (yet).

#83 Bleu

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 10:30

The staggering bit to me is how it takes the stewards hours to come to a conclusion that everyone at home sees instantly. As soon as Verstappen improved whilst Bottas is there like that... it’s clear he hasn’t lifted. Even if he did lift, it wasn’t enough in the circumstances.

Any fan of f1 knows that.

 

Compared to Rosberg in Hungary there was at least explanation that conditions were changing as qualifying started wet and got better as the session progressed. No such thing happened in Mexico.



#84 Mishvili

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 11:05

I see from the provisional grid posted on the race thread apparent confirmation that Verstappen DIDN’T get his second lap deleted? A rather careless omission? Had he not set an initial time then the implication is that he would have benefitted from the offence?

#85 Pimpwerx

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 11:43

https://mobile.twitt...7302026241?s=19

"FIA taking another look at Verstappen's data following his provocative comments in the press conference. #MexicanGP"

Why not look at the data properly the first time around, FIA?

This, this, this, and oh yeah, THIS! Measure twice, cut bleeping once. You don't deliver a decision, until you do your due diligence. Anything less is irresponsible, reckless, and just plain bush league.

 

'Let them race' wasn't there in Montreal. I'm not sure it's here either. Or if it ever was. This is 'let them whatever'. Whatever has no place in Motorsport.

To be fair, Canada was actually an example of good stewarding, and a bunch of fans disgruntled about Mercedes dominance delivered the mother of all tantrums. The decision was thoroughly reviewed, agreed by majority, and delivered in a timely manner. In typical FIA knee-jerk reaction, they decided that rather than do their jobs, they would instead allow the show to dictate their behavior. Austria was the start. A questionable decision delivered after a super long delay. Monza saw a softball warning for indecent behavior, followed by complete ignorance of a second violation, because to actually address it would have resulted in a penalty after the first violation got a warning. We has Suzuka, where a delay in officiating a pitstop via the official meatball flag almost got a driver hit by debris, and then they flip-flopped from no investigation to conducting one, seemingly as a means of covering for the dangerous situation they allowed. They ignored the Albon-Norris incident, and I'm not sure they ever looked into the Gasly-Perez one. Not to mention the jump start and checkered flag issues.

 

This has been a shambolic performance post-Canada. I want to go back to the post-Austria thread and give a like to all the other fans who predicted this precipitous dropoff in race officiating at the time, because the slippery slope was all too evident. People complained in Canada, because established precedent has determined that the exciting chase had to be ruined due to a mandatory penalty. The rules were easy to read that race, and though it brought an end to the chase, you can only blame that on Seb for driving in a manner that ended it prematurely. Penalties shouldn't be conditional, where we weigh them based on how much they impact what is happening. Now, we have exactly that. In Austria, the stewards probably didn't want to have to deal with a swarm of irate Max fans that were in attendance, but tough nuts if the rules and precedence up to that point called for a penalty. Penalties should give pause to the driver thinking about performing a questionable maneuver. They shouldn't only be enforced when it's most convenient for the stewards to do so.

 

Do your bleeping job, or step aside to make room for someone else who is willing to do so. I keep blaming Masi, but I honestly don't know the specifics of the stewarding workflow, so maybe issue lies elsewhere. But I can't help but think that things have taken a noticeable turn for the worst under Masi, and I don't like it. They were fully prepared to let Max get away with speeding under yellow yesterday, had he not incriminated himself (and by extension the stewards) in the press conference. So, once again, the stewards/RC's boldest move of the weekend is covering their own asses, because to not investigate at that point would have spotlighted their negligence in the wake of Jule's death under the same kind of conditions. Hooray for the FIA cowards. Good job getting shamed into doing your jobs.

 

This could have been avoided if the FIA properly defended the actions of its stewards in Canada, and didn't bend to the backlash of some bitter fans. Austria would have been a penalty. Leclerc wouldn't have been a jerk in Monza, and possibly wouldn't have taken Max out at Suzuka. We might not have seen a flip-flop at Suzuka or yesterday as well. I can't help but feel that the Canada reaction has caused a cascade of crap since, because this is precisely what some of us were predicting would happen. Now we reap what we sow. We have inconsistent, shambolic stewarding, and no one knows exactly how the next transgression will be ruled, because everything now hinges on what the outcome of that particular moment in time will be. This is shameful.

 

/rant



#86 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 12:03

Isn’t part of the problem that most of the rules are written generically - ie. to cover all driving contexts - practice, qualifying, races etc? And bear in mind that yellow flags can sometimes appear for a very short period of time - they aren’t always triggered by a crash, sometimes by something as minor as a driver getting a bit out of shape. To disqualify entire laps on the basis of this would be a bit harsh (especially in eg. Changeable track conditions).

 

Not really. Isn't the meaning of the yellow flag "slow down". The yellow should only be shown if the marshals feel that cars need to slow down. So it does not really matter what the circumstances are - the cars are supposed to slow down and, therefore, it should not be possible to set a fast lap time if they do so.



#87 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 12:10

Maybe Masi is getting pushed around a bit too much by the drivers "let them race".. clearly he didnt want to take Max pole away

 

Well, this is part of his job. If he bows to outside pressure, then he is not the correct person for that job.



#88 Mishvili

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 12:19

Not really. Isn't the meaning of the yellow flag "slow down". The yellow should only be shown if the marshals feel that cars need to slow down. So it does not really matter what the circumstances are - the cars are supposed to slow down and, therefore, it should not be possible to set a fast lap time if they do so.


Why not? The yellow flag means “slow down (and be prepared to stop/change direction) in the vicinity of the incident, not on the whole lap. “Fast lap time” is arguably a meaningless term if you are talking about disallowing it completely. For example, any lap is a “fast lap” if it is your only lap. And it’s all very well talking about aborting/disallowing laps etc in practice/qualifying, but where does that leave you in a race?

#89 jacdaniel

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 12:48

No one really slowed down anyways. Max just got punished for admitting it and improving his time.

#90 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 12:58

Why not? The yellow flag means “slow down (and be prepared to stop/change direction) in the vicinity of the incident, not on the whole lap. “Fast lap time” is arguably a meaningless term if you are talking about disallowing it completely. For example, any lap is a “fast lap” if it is your only lap. And it’s all very well talking about aborting/disallowing laps etc in practice/qualifying, but where does that leave you in a race?

 

Why? Because it makes it simple and easy to understand by all. Yes, it's possible that the time lost by slowing in a yellow area could be smaller than the time gained by improving your lap in other places, but I would sacrifice those for simplicity and, more importantly, encouraging drivers to actually slow down in yellow areas.



#91 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 13:00

No one really slowed down anyways. Max just got punished for admitting it and improving his time.

 

A sad truth.



#92 statman

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 13:07

There is an error in the official FIA document on Max Verstappen's penalty. It says he broke "Appendix H Article 2.4.5.1. (b)" of the ISC, which does not exist. I understand from the FIA he was actually found to have broken Article 2.5.5 (b).



#93 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 13:10

There is an error in the official FIA document on Max Verstappen's penalty. It says he broke "Appendix H Article 2.4.5.1. (b)" of the ISC, which does not exist. I understand from the FIA he was actually found to have broken Article 2.5.5 (b).

 

You couldn't make it up. Do they actually employ anyone who is competent?



#94 Kalmake

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 13:42

2.4.5.1(b) is correct for 2017 version that comes up first if you google for it. :rolleyes:  



#95 PlatenGlass

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 14:21

You couldn't make it up. Do they actually employ anyone who is competent?

You couldn't make it up but it seems the FIA did.

#96 pdac

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 14:40

2.4.5.1(b) is correct for 2017 version that comes up first if you google for it. :rolleyes:  

 

So either they have all memorised the 2017 code and are quoting it of the top of their heads, or else they are working with an outdated version of the code. Either way it's pretty scary considering these are the people who are supposed to be judging incidents against the rule books and applying penalties for contraventions. It makes you wonder how many mistakes they have made in the past because they've not realised that something has been updated.



#97 Marklar

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 14:45

Pretty sure they are using templates for the verdict and havent updated them



#98 FLB

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 14:54



#99 FLB

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 14:58

And this is a sport where major corporatIons put hundreds of millions of dollars in play and wants them to have LESS of a say in how it’s run?!

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#100 ExFlagMan

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 15:10

You have to remember that although the FIA has these published rules - F1 appears to have its own (somewhat variable) sub-set, especially where the yellow flag is concerned. 

 

The only people who can be blamed for this are the drivers themselves, as they invented to 'slight lift and a minor hand signal' is all that is required, and 'those upstairs' who allowed them to get away with it.