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Race direction / race control / stewarding incompetence


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#151 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:05

Monaco - Verstappen/Bottas was 5 seconds
Brazil - Verstappen/Kubica was 5 seconds

I guess that's your answer.

 


That's what they hand out, but is that what it should be? Personally I think a far harsher penalty needs to be applied.

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#152 jannyg

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:12

Was a full SC over a VSC really needed for Bottas' blowout?

#153 CharlesWinstone

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:12


That's what they hand out, but is that what it should be? Personally I think a far harsher penalty needs to be applied.


Punish the team not the driver. So different punishment not harsher.

#154 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:13

Was a full SC over a VSC really needed for Bottas' blowout?

 

They needed neither, a yellow flag would suffice.

 

:cool:



#155 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:17

Punish the team not the driver. So different punishment not harsher.

 


The driver is part of the team. Or do you think a driver should be allowed to gain from an unsafe release because someone else made the decision?

#156 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:17

Punish the team not the driver. So different punishment not harsher.

not really. It has a lot of implications on the driver's race. They would take more chances with this if the driver was left alone 



#157 r4mses

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:21

It's a real shame their slow work - while everyone knew the result - took Sainz'/McLaren's podium ceremony

 

/e: nevermind if that DRS thing turns out to be the case


Edited by r4mses, 17 November 2019 - 20:26.


#158 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:22

That's what they hand out, but is that what it should be? Personally I think a far harsher penalty needs to be applied.

 

I'd say it's more a drive-through level transgression.



#159 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:24

I'd say it's more a drive-through level transgression.

 


I agree.

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#160 Winterapfel

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:28

Was a full SC over a VSC really needed for Bottas' blowout?


It was clear that the engine would fail. Should have gone into the pits. Would have prevented the unsafe parking of the car at all!

#161 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:30

It was clear that the engine would fail. Should have gone into the pits. Would have prevented the unsafe parking of the car at all!

 


Obvious to those watching on TV, but maybe not so obvious to the driver, who was concentrating on the car just in front of him.

#162 Marklar

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:32

Can somebody explain to me why drivers even can use DRS under double yellows?



#163 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:36

Can somebody explain to me why drivers even can use DRS under double yellows?

 


Must admit that I thought they were disabled. What happens if they already have the DRS open, and then the flags come out?

Edited by Clatter, 17 November 2019 - 20:38.


#164 Muz Bee

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:38

I thought race control had disabling ability at those times (first two laps). 🙃

#165 Bleu

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:40

Obvious to those watching on TV, but maybe not so obvious to the driver, who was concentrating on the car just in front of him.

 

Team should be one of those watching and they surely had time to say on the radio: "Box. retire the car." or something like that.



#166 SophieB

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:41

Can somebody explain to me why drivers even can use DRS under double yellows?

 

A good question.



#167 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 20:43

Team should be one of those watching and they surely had time to say on the radio: "Box. retire the car." or something like that.

 


They were probably still looking at the data. No point panicking and needlessly retiring a car because of a bit smoke.

#168 Muz Bee

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 09:31

Hamilton admitted his fault immediately. So why didn’t Masi rule on a clear 5 second penalty before the podium? Sainz and McLaren robbed of the moment. And the procrastination went on for nearly an hour....

#169 SenorSjon

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 09:35

A good question.

 

Usually we have a DRS disabled banner during this. I think they forgot to switch off the system.



#170 ANF

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 10:48

Can somebody explain to me why drivers even can use DRS under double yellows?

Probably this:
 

Ok.. se when through the the sporting regulations and this is what I've seen:

21.5 Driver adjustable bodywork permitted by Article 3.6.8 of the F1 Technical Regulations :

c) The system will be disabled by the control electronics the first time the driver uses the brakes after he has activated the system. In conditions of poor visibility, or if yellow flags are being shown in the activation zone, the race director may, at his absolute discretion, disable all such systems until conditions improve or yellow flags are withdrawn.

So this must mean the race director didn't disable such systems.



#171 Anderis

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:19

That's what they hand out, but is that what it should be? Personally I think a far harsher penalty needs to be applied.

5 seconds penalties for:
- dangerous situations like unseafe release

- ruining the race of another driver after a collision that was your fault (yay, he DNFs but you only get dropped from 3rd to 4th, 15 or so WDC points net gain)

- gaining advantage like overtaking outside track limits

 

are absolute jokes.

 

A 5 second penalty could be OK for exceeding the pit lane speed by 1 km/h or for crossing the white line at the pit exit while not impeding any other driver. But for anything that has a much bigger impact on how the race goes they should be using drive-through penalties minimum. The worst thing in 5 seconds penalties is that they often only count dozens of laps after they had been handed. This means that, for example, you can make an illegal overtake, build an advantage and not suffer a single position loss due to the penalty, gaining advantage from breaking the rules. If that happens it means the penalty does not do its job. The same could happen with unsafe release. It might be more advantageous to release the driver in front of another driver and then take the 5 seconds penalty than to let that another driver by and get stuck behind him for the rest of the race.

A penalty should take care that you're always better off staying within rules than breaking them. Right now it does not seem to be the case and I don't know why isn't FIA doing anything about it. To me it seems like they have bent too much to the "let them race" opinions. But it's not fair the way it is now.


Edited by Anderis, 18 November 2019 - 11:22.


#172 Marklar

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:22

a 5 seconds penalty is a joke in any case. Sometimes it costs you 10 positions, sometimes it GAINS you positions.

#173 Kalmake

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 12:08

5 seconds is the scared compromise between "let them race" and strict policing.



#174 registered

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:02

Hamilton admitted his fault immediately. So why didn’t Masi rule on a clear 5 second penalty before the podium? Sainz and McLaren robbed of the moment. And the procrastination went on for nearly an hour....

Because Masi doesn't do penalties. Charlie Whiting didn't issue penalties either. That's the job of the stewards.

#175 Garndell

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:24

Hamilton admitted his fault immediately. So why didn’t Masi rule on a clear 5 second penalty before the podium? Sainz and McLaren robbed of the moment. And the procrastination went on for nearly an hour....

 

Part of it is the mandatory post race commitments of the drivers meaning they cannot just go straight to the stewards until after those commitments.



#176 Clrnc

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:03

Part of it is the mandatory post race commitments of the drivers meaning they cannot just go straight to the stewards until after those commitments.

I'm pretty sure Max was stripped off the podium for Kimi in one of the races. They mentioned when it involves podium they want to decide as quickly as possible if its obvious. 

 

This should have been one of those



#177 pdac

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:17

a 5 seconds penalty is a joke in any case. Sometimes it costs you 10 positions, sometimes it GAINS you positions.

 

Yep. I don't understand why they don't have position penalties (i.e. you either have to give back position to those behind you or else your final position is adjusted at the end of the race). They seem to be happy with grid-position penalties. Why not race-position ones?



#178 pdac

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:20

Part of it is the mandatory post race commitments of the drivers meaning they cannot just go straight to the stewards until after those commitments.

 

They can (and do) make a temporary ruling, which is then adjusted later. At the moment their 'temporary' ruling is to not apply any penalties. Perhaps they could rethink that and, in circumstances like this, where one driver has freely admitted blame, they could 'temporarily' apply a penalty that can be adjusted after the meeting.



#179 Myrvold

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:26

Part of it is the mandatory post race commitments of the drivers meaning they cannot just go straight to the stewards until after those commitments.

 

They don't need to talk to the drivers.



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#180 JeePee

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:32

I'm pretty sure Max was stripped off the podium

Twice actually. Mexico '16 and USA '17

#181 Bleu

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 17:44

I think race director can't disable just one zone for DRS - it's all zones or no zone. So in this case, disabling zone due to Bottas's car, it would have also meant to disable the zone on the S/F straight.



#182 w1Y

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 18:24

Not sure why bottas retirement couldnt have been done under vsc

#183 JRodrigues

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 18:37

Can somebody explain to me why drivers even can use DRS under double yellows?

 

https://www.espn.com...1-podium-brazil

 

 

Drivers had been told in Friday's drivers' briefing that penalties would be handed down for opening the DRS during any double yellow situation, but Sainz was let off.

"It was actually the main topic on Friday we spoke about," Bottas said after the race. "They said that there would be penalties for that. Obviously, double yellows it means something severe. Pretty bad things have happened in the past with yellow flags so for sure it's not something to play with, the DRS."

After the race it was revealed Sainz was one of eight drivers to have momentarily opened the DRS flap on the rear wing while double yellows were in operation. FIA race director Michael Masi put this down to a force of habit and said all eight drivers had otherwise obeyed the No. 1 rule of double-waved yellows -- slow and be prepared to stop.

"We looked at it, and the overriding factor was double yellow flags is the requirement to slow, and significantly slow, and that's what we looked at with all of them," Masi said on Sunday evening. "All of them complied with that.

"Yes, a few of them did activate DRS for a relatively short period of time. I'll call it muscle memory. There isn't the ability of isolating single DRS zones to turn them off. It's either, they all get turned off, or... We had the stewards look at that and decide no investigation was necessary. The overriding factor of slowing for the double yellows was absolutely complied with."

 

I call this BS. If this was talked, they must follow it. No matter if it's 0.1s or 10s.  :down:



#184 balmybaldwin

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 18:45

They needed neither, a yellow flag would suffice.

 

:cool:

 

Yes lets see another driver decapitated running into a crane. :rolleyes:

 

Unfortunate as it may have been as soon as the car would not roll a crane was required.  Recovery vehicle on the wrong side of the barriers = SC



#185 balmybaldwin

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 18:47

Hamilton admitted his fault immediately. So why didn’t Masi rule on a clear 5 second penalty before the podium? Sainz and McLaren robbed of the moment. And the procrastination went on for nearly an hour....

 

Yes the delay was appauling... and nearly cost me my bet winnings (Bet365 don't care about the official result just who stands on the podium) Had a row with them on twitter before they resolved it by paying out


Edited by balmybaldwin, 18 November 2019 - 18:47.


#186 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 18:56

Masi has been a disaster since he took over......



#187 DaddyCool

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 19:01

It's been crystal clear for a while that nobody gives a heck about yellows, so I wonder why don't they actually use the VSC more? You know the thing that actually slows them down and not just some "I lifted for half a sec" BS.



#188 Myrvold

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 19:01

Masi has been a disaster since he took over......

 

He has after Austria and then Germany. Seemed like it was a good change from Whiting up to that point.



#189 Marklar

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 19:31

I blame Canada. The ridiculously immature reaction to this all over the world made them change their approach from acting sensible and consistent to going back making **** up as they go, just even worse than before.

#190 Diablobb81

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 19:35

I blame Canada. The ridiculously immature reaction to this all over the world made them change their approach from acting sensible and consistent to going back making **** up as they go, just even worse than before.

True, but the other way around. Canada was a BS interference in a fight. There was nothing sensible and consistent in their decision and they rightly were skewered for it.

While i blamed the stewards for not sorting the Lewis situation quickly in Brazil if they also had to sort the yellow flag/DRS situation at the same time it's more understandable.

Edited by Diablobb81, 18 November 2019 - 19:37.


#191 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 23:37

Yes lets see another driver decapitated running into a crane. :rolleyes:

 

Unfortunate as it may have been as soon as the car would not roll a crane was required.  Recovery vehicle on the wrong side of the barriers = SC

 

It was not possible to hit that crane, there were zero need for anything other than a flag.

 

:cool:



#192 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 23:39

It's been crystal clear for a while that nobody gives a heck about yellows, so I wonder why don't they actually use the VSC more? You know the thing that actually slows them down and not just some "I lifted for half a sec" BS.

 

Just issue a drive through penalty to all drivers they deem not to have obeyed the flag. The many, many rules are really not that difficult, it is the lack of consistent application of the rules which continue to make it a circus.

 

:cool:



#193 Muz Bee

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:30

Because Masi doesn't do penalties. Charlie Whiting didn't issue penalties either. That's the job of the stewards.

Wrong. Masi issued Vettel with the time penalty in Canada before the race was finished - just one memorable snafu penalty he has issued this year. And the speed many decisions of more borderline cases has been made makes the near two hour wait by Sainz and McLaren look ridiculous. I’m not going to believe anyone who says Lewis’s admission of guilt was not given weight. Everyone at the podium ceremony had the strongest of hunches that the podium would be overturned.

Edited by Muz Bee, 19 November 2019 - 01:34.


#194 Sterzo

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 09:42

It was not possible to hit that crane, there were zero need for anything other than a flag.

 

:cool:

I think this ignores the need to have quick decision making based on clear guidelines. Currently, crane = Safety Car. Much better than a debate about how far out the crane might have to move to get in position, or an inquest into why the crane driver didn't put it exactly where the race director had hoped.



#195 registered

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 11:19

Wrong. Masi issued Vettel with the time penalty in Canada before the race was finished - just one memorable snafu penalty he has issued this year. And the speed many decisions of more borderline cases has been made makes the near two hour wait by Sainz and McLaren look ridiculous. I’m not going to believe anyone who says Lewis’s admission of guilt was not given weight. Everyone at the podium ceremony had the strongest of hunches that the podium would be overturned.

https://www.fia.com/.../82120/download
To me that looks like stewards decision not a penalty issued by Masi. He couldn't do it anyway the race director doesn't have the authority to issue penalties, the stewards do.

#196 ANF

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 11:47

I think this ignores the need to have quick decision making based on clear guidelines. Currently, crane = Safety Car. Much better than a debate about how far out the crane might have to move to get in position, or an inquest into why the crane driver didn't put it exactly where the race director had hoped.

Exactly. Bottas had stopped on the access road at the end of the straight and there was always the risk that the crane driver would put (part of) the crane (or the dangling Mercedes) in a position where it could be hit by another car.

T4b.jpg



No shots of the crane in the video, but the Mercedes can be seen at 0:47.

#197 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 12:48

The crane wasn't in the line of fire due to the way the barriers are arranged. But, it may have had to manoeuvre into a position where it would have been, so I don't blame race control of calling a safety car.

 

That it generated immense excitement is just a bonus.



#198 Ruusperi

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 13:04

Still don't understand the argument that VSC is not sufficient when a tractor is needed? What is the logic there? What should be changed so that VSC was deemed sufficient? I would say VSC is nowadays much safer option than SC in most cases. The exception would be when debris need to be broomed or a medical car is required.



#199 ANF

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 14:58

Is there any difference in VSC and SC minimum marshalling sector times?

I believe the current VSC/SC delta rules are flawed anyway. An absolute speed limit should be introduced.

For example, these are Leclerc's speeds on the nine laps before, during and after the safety car for Bottas (top = highest speed reached at any point on the straight before T4; apex = lowest speed reached through T4).
 
green flag:   top 303; apex 149
local yellow: top 294; apex 147
safety car:   top 183; apex 130
   [makes a pit stop]
safety car:   top 287; apex 106
safety car:   top 281; apex 139
   [catches the safety car train]
safety car:   top 253; apex 89
safety car:   top 252; apex 149
safety car:   top 237; apex 147
   [restart]
green + tow:  top 321; apex 127


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#200 statman

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 15:11

EJmEY7xWoAc2Pfk.jpg

 

:D