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2019 Mexican Grand Prix build up Thread (Championship Decider Part Three?)


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#1251 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 15:00

Because the deterrent isn't big enough, they barely have to slow down at all to avoid penalties, plus there's always a question of whether they did the sector before the yellow flag was out, etc.


If the times were deleted then there’s no incentive to drive fast through the incident area at all. You could still penalise drivers who do not slow down of course.

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#1252 zanquis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 15:26

Shocking. I've been reading your arguments here with interest and at least now I can understand the hubris. I don't think anyone needs to have a degree to see the quite obvious flaws in your reasoning.


So far all I see is that people try to find a fault by misreading or misrepresentation of what I said into something completely opposite of what I say.

Seriously my main point I made here is that:
- Verstappen broke the rules (I see 100% agreement on that)
- Bottas didn’t have his car under control prior to his accident (Bottas confirmed)
- Bottas accident was a result from him still trying to improve his lap despite this loss of control
- there was only 1 yellow flag on entire track waved (not visible as a double yellow from what I saw on onboards)
- from the moment Max could see the flag he had control and he knew he had control.
- at that moment he steered away from Bottas and the risk of an accident was zero.
- at that time Max judged the situation as safe to continu as there was zero risk of him hitting bottas and he could see a clear track
- if Max didn’t notice the flag because he was relying on the lights instead that would be bad from Max.
- at no point did Max put himself, Bottas or the Marshalls in any danger with his action.
- the only “risks” people can come up with are totally imagined risks that Max could see where not present (debris) or based on that Max would AND lose control of his car AND keep full throttle while understeering (which is stupid, just ask Bottas) or based on a freak occurrence like a blown tire or something else launching Max towards Bottas. (When was the last blown tire without hitting a car/debris again?)
- he still broke the rules and deserved his penalty, he just isn’t the villain people make of him. Every driver on the grid would do the same if they don’t notice the yellow (maybe because they are focused on the crashed car And the track instead of flags)

#1253 DarthWillie

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 15:40

So Max doesn't see the yellow flag but is able to see there is no debris. Convenient.

The biggest flaw is Max believes he was in control. And though he was, the risk was he could lose it. Pretending where Bottas lost it was the only place ho could lose it is the flaw in Max's thinking

#1254 zanquis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 15:57

So Max doesn't see the yellow flag but is able to see there is no debris. Convenient.

The biggest flaw is Max believes he was in control. And though he was, the risk was he could lose it. Pretending where Bottas lost it was the only place ho could lose it is the flaw in Max's thinking


Thank you for demonstrating again how people misrepresent what is written and what the laws of physic allow to happen...

1) a driver will always focus more on what is up the road than the marshall post especially if he already sees a crashed car. It is called human not convenient.

2) on the exit of a corner is basically a very safe situation especially since in order for Max to lose control and than to end up any where near Bottas he would need to ignore multiple warning signs and keep going full throttle like an idiot. There has never been any indication that Max is that stupid ever. You need to make loads of assumptions just to put a minor element of danger in Max actions.

#1255 Peter3hg

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 16:05

Thank you for demonstrating again how people misrepresent what is written and what the laws of physic allow to happen...

1) a driver will always focus more on what is up the road than the marshall post especially if he already sees a crashed car. It is called human not convenient.

2) on the exit of a corner is basically a very safe situation especially since in order for Max to lose control and than to end up any where near Bottas he would need to ignore multiple warning signs and keep going full throttle like an idiot. There has never been any indication that Max is that stupid ever. You need to make loads of assumptions just to put a minor element of danger in Max actions.

 

The biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you seem to think it should be up to the driver to judge what is safe in these situations. It absolutely should not be. If there is a yellow flag then you slow. No ifs, no buts, no "it looked safe to me".

The FIA need to come down much harder on those ignoring yellow flags. If they all do it as you claim then they will soon stop when a few of them get an appropriate punishment.
They've created this situation by allowing drivers to pay lip service to the marshal's safety instructions.



#1256 YoungGun

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 16:15

Thank you for demonstrating again how people misrepresent what is written and what the laws of physic allow to happen...

1) a driver will always focus more on what is up the road than the marshall post especially if he already sees a crashed car. It is called human not convenient.

2) on the exit of a corner is basically a very safe situation especially since in order for Max to lose control and than to end up any where near Bottas he would need to ignore multiple warning signs and keep going full throttle like an idiot. There has never been any indication that Max is that stupid ever. You need to make loads of assumptions just to put a minor element of danger in Max actions.

 

Max admitting he failed to back off earns my respect. :up:



#1257 Flyhigh

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 16:23

My gosh what is this nonsense discussion, I love Max´s talent and I hope he become a champion soon, but what he did yesterday is just mentally ******** in many levels. Botta´s accident was really bad, as bad as it gets right in the main straight with him not feeling so well and not leaving the car right after it, and Max simply ignores everything and just flats it out without an inch of hesitation at all, and afters even boost about it "we need to go for it"  I mean it doesn´t get a more slam dunk case than this. 
 



#1258 gillesfan76

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 16:33

So far all I see is that people try to find a fault by misreading or misrepresentation of what I said into something completely opposite of what I say.

Seriously my main point I made here is that:
- Verstappen broke the rules (I see 100% agreement on that)
- Bottas didn’t have his car under control prior to his accident (Bottas confirmed)
- Bottas accident was a result from him still trying to improve his lap despite this loss of control
- there was only 1 yellow flag on entire track waved (not visible as a double yellow from what I saw on onboards)
- from the moment Max could see the flag he had control and he knew he had control.
- at that moment he steered away from Bottas and the risk of an accident was zero.
- at that time Max judged the situation as safe to continu as there was zero risk of him hitting bottas and he could see a clear track
- if Max didn’t notice the flag because he was relying on the lights instead that would be bad from Max.
- at no point did Max put himself, Bottas or the Marshalls in any danger with his action.
- the only “risks” people can come up with are totally imagined risks that Max could see where not present (debris) or based on that Max would AND lose control of his car AND keep full throttle while understeering (which is stupid, just ask Bottas) or based on a freak occurrence like a blown tire or something else launching Max towards Bottas. (When was the last blown tire without hitting a car/debris again?)
- he still broke the rules and deserved his penalty, he just isn’t the villain people make of him. Every driver on the grid would do the same if they don’t notice the yellow (maybe because they are focused on the crashed car And the track instead of flags)

 

Cool story, but Max went faster, he was on the limit or at the very least close enough to it, and many a time a driver has thought he's got control and next moment he's off the track. Drivers even spin in the pitlane, hardly a place where they have their car out of control. As others have pointed, no one could have known if there was oil on the track, marshalls on it etc. etc. No one else here is claiming that the risk of an accident was high, merely that there was the possibility of some unknown parameters that could have led to a dangerous situation. Yet you've managed to detail a complete alternative narrative to fit the point you wish to prove which is that there was little possibility of such other unknown parameters.

 

btw I agree with you that he's definitely not a villain, it was a split second decision and he made the wrong one, got the penalty and moved on. So you can put that strawman back in its box.



#1259 zanquis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:04

The biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you seem to think it should be up to the driver to judge what is safe in these situations. It absolutely should not be. If there is a yellow flag then you slow. No ifs, no buts, no "it looked safe to me".
The FIA need to come down much harder on those ignoring yellow flags. If they all do it as you claim then they will soon stop when a few of them get an appropriate punishment.
They've created this situation by allowing drivers to pay lip service to the marshal's safety instructions.


See that is again not reading what I said well.
Cause my position is that Max should have backed off and was wrong to continue as he did.

I am als realistic enough that in similar conditions this would/could happen to Vettel, Hamilton, Leclerc, etc. If they miss the flag none of them would slow down if they so no obstructions on their road.

The only thing I am defending him from people who act as if Max put anyone in danger. He didn't. (but it wasn't his call to make)

Race control should have been more active and ready to send out yellow or even red flag the situation. Except for the nearest Marshall the rest was basically sleeping.

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#1260 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:14

Does it take vision of a free track or a green flag to floor it again?



#1261 messy

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:24

Must say I keep forgetting this is on and when I remember it’s on just after 7 it’s a new surprise every time. 
 

it’s either losing my marbles, a sad indication of falling out of love with F1 or the effects of three months of sleep deprivation after having a baby. 
 

or all three. Looking forward to seeing angry Max take the fight to the Ferraris he beat so handily in qualifying but I’m not a massive fan of this track. 



#1262 JBJ

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:36

Cool story, but Max went faster, 

he went faster, but not in the last mini sector



#1263 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:38

Thank you for demonstrating again how people misrepresent what is written and what the laws of physic allow to happen...

1) a driver will always focus more on what is up the road than the marshall post especially if he already sees a crashed car. It is called human not convenient.

2) on the exit of a corner is basically a very safe situation especially since in order for Max to lose control and than to end up any where near Bottas he would need to ignore multiple warning signs and keep going full throttle like an idiot. There has never been any indication that Max is that stupid ever. You need to make loads of assumptions just to put a minor element of danger in Max actions.

 

I thought that was basically what he did.



#1264 loki

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:43

Which is why any comparing like some did with Bianchi is so insulting as Bianchi accident happened under very tricky conditions and no driver had their car fully under control, they where constantly correcting their cars.

 

You’re the only one comparing the crashes.  I’m comparing the state of mind of the drivers not thinking it’s as risky as it was.  They both willfully did not lift in a yellow condition.  That is the similarity.  



#1265 BalanceUT

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:48

Max is not a "villain" based on the rules infraction. He's not even a "villain" based on his comments that then lead to the investigation and penalty. He acted the arrogant punk at the press conference on a matter related to the safety of another driver. The FIA decided that wasn't cool and a lesson needed to be taught. They were willing to let it go based on the obvious timing of things meaning Verstappen barely had time to properly react and likelihood of accident being low. But, when players act arrogant about the rules related to safety, action must be taken. 

 

That's all this is about. 

 

All the rest are people trying to get clicks to their sites and/or blustering to hear their own voices. 

 

I like Verstappen and Leclerc and see in them a great future for Formula 1. 

 

So far all I see is that people try to find a fault by misreading or misrepresentation of what I said into something completely opposite of what I say.

Seriously my main point I made here is that:
- Verstappen broke the rules (I see 100% agreement on that)
- Bottas didn’t have his car under control prior to his accident (Bottas confirmed)
- Bottas accident was a result from him still trying to improve his lap despite this loss of control
- there was only 1 yellow flag on entire track waved (not visible as a double yellow from what I saw on onboards)
- from the moment Max could see the flag he had control and he knew he had control.
- at that moment he steered away from Bottas and the risk of an accident was zero.
- at that time Max judged the situation as safe to continu as there was zero risk of him hitting bottas and he could see a clear track
- if Max didn’t notice the flag because he was relying on the lights instead that would be bad from Max.
- at no point did Max put himself, Bottas or the Marshalls in any danger with his action.
- the only “risks” people can come up with are totally imagined risks that Max could see where not present (debris) or based on that Max would AND lose control of his car AND keep full throttle while understeering (which is stupid, just ask Bottas) or based on a freak occurrence like a blown tire or something else launching Max towards Bottas. (When was the last blown tire without hitting a car/debris again?)
- he still broke the rules and deserved his penalty, he just isn’t the villain people make of him. Every driver on the grid would do the same if they don’t notice the yellow (maybe because they are focused on the crashed car And the track instead of flags)


Edited by BalanceUT, 27 October 2019 - 17:49.


#1266 GAZF1nut

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:53

Why are we still debating Verstappen’s penalty? He didn’t lift, he got a fair penalty, simple as that. Let’s focus on the race  :D



#1267 danstheman

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 17:59

So far all I see is that people try to find a fault by misreading or misrepresentation of what I said into something completely opposite of what I say.

Seriously my main point I made here is that:
- Verstappen broke the rules (I see 100% agreement on that)
- Bottas didn’t have his car under control prior to his accident (Bottas confirmed)
- Bottas accident was a result from him still trying to improve his lap despite this loss of control
- there was only 1 yellow flag on entire track waved (not visible as a double yellow from what I saw on onboards)
- from the moment Max could see the flag he had control and he knew he had control.
- at that moment he steered away from Bottas and the risk of an accident was zero.
- at that time Max judged the situation as safe to continu as there was zero risk of him hitting bottas and he could see a clear track
- if Max didn’t notice the flag because he was relying on the lights instead that would be bad from Max.
- at no point did Max put himself, Bottas or the Marshalls in any danger with his action.
- the only “risks” people can come up with are totally imagined risks that Max could see where not present (debris) or based on that Max would AND lose control of his car AND keep full throttle while understeering (which is stupid, just ask Bottas) or based on a freak occurrence like a blown tire or something else launching Max towards Bottas. (When was the last blown tire without hitting a car/debris again?)
- he still broke the rules and deserved his penalty, he just isn’t the villain people make of him. Every driver on the grid would do the same if they don’t notice the yellow (maybe because they are focused on the crashed car And the track instead of flags)

 

You're only in control up to the point that you lose control and the actual moment this occurs is unpredictable. Nice logic...

 

Also the risk of Max crashing was not zero. Again, physically impossible

 

So you expect drivers at 300 km/h down a straight to just carry on and not slow down despite waved yellows because they're 'in control'

 

Dangerous thinking



#1268 Erwin123

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:12

Just saw Max his reaction in the yesterday persco for the first time.
Not cocky at all as some write here, he's very obviously aware of his quilt (schuldbewust) but can't bring himself to lie about it.

 

Now, can't wait for the race to begin for part II of this mexican saga



#1269 zanquis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:21

I thought that was basically what he did.


I Used to rate you higher then this...

Ignoring warning signs like losing grip, sliding and still going on. Basically he needed to do what Bottas did.

#1270 zanquis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:27

Max is not a "villain" based on the rules infraction. He's not even a "villain" based on his comments that then lead to the investigation and penalty. He acted the arrogant punk at the press conference on a matter related to the safety of another driver. The FIA decided that wasn't cool and a lesson needed to be taught. They were willing to let it go based on the obvious timing of things meaning Verstappen barely had time to properly react and likelihood of accident being low. But, when players act arrogant about the rules related to safety, action must be taken.

That's all this is about.

All the rest are people trying to get clicks to their sites and/or blustering to hear their own voices.

I like Verstappen and Leclerc and see in them a great future for Formula 1.


K based on your arguments I think I need to reverse my position... if THIS is the argument the penalty would be wrong and Max should start on pole.

Especially in order to judge it arrogant you need to put some criteria that can’t be proven or disproven. To me or any Dutch this wasn’t arrogance but just blunt Dutch honesty. This has nothing to do with Dutch view as fans but just how the Dutch are, he knew he didn’t slow down but he also never said he ignored a yellow as he didn’t notice that one yellow flag waved at that point. Remember we need a slomo to actually notice it, which is why normally multiple yellows and yellow warning lights are employed.

#1271 zanquis

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:30

You're only in control up to the point that you lose control and the actual moment this occurs is unpredictable. Nice logic...

Also the risk of Max crashing was not zero. Again, physically impossible

So you expect drivers at 300 km/h down a straight to just carry on and not slow down despite waved yellows because they're 'in control'

Dangerous thinking


See I never said I expect drivers to ignore yellow or say it is ok to ignore yellow. I said the exact opposite.

#1272 EndlessMotion

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:35

Why are we still debating Verstappen’s penalty? He didn’t lift, he got a fair penalty, simple as that. Let’s focus on the race  :D

 

Probably because those of us in Europe have had almost an entire Sunday to make it through with the race starting about 5-6 hours later than usual. Need something to talk/moan about :p



#1273 milestone 11

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:51

To me or any Dutch this wasn’t arrogance but just blunt Dutch honesty.


It comes across as extremely arrogant to a native english speaker. Knowing a number of Dutch people, I would not refer to it as Dutch honesty unless, of course, all my Dutch acquaintances are dishonest.

#1274 ClubmanGT

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 04:13

"Aren't we Dutch zany?" looks a lot like "We just don't give a **** if someone dies because we decided we knew better".