25 replies to this topic

[Ben1445]

DTM released this today:

https://www.dtm.com/...2019-11-06.html

“DTM organiser, the ITR, has now begun to explore future powertrain solutions, creating a spectacular concept study of how racing cars could evolve to embrace new technologies, while also critically retaining the power and spectacle that has made motorsport so unique and compelling.

ITR has always believed that racing must always be fast and spectacular, providing fans and competitors alike with visceral, sensory overload.”

And with this vision that means 1000bhp electric or hydrogen vehicles with battery/hydrogen tank swap pit stops carried out by industrial robots.

I’d imagine there will be...opinions...on this

[noikeee]

battery/hydrogen tank swap pit stops carried out by industrial robots.

 

 

That's... new. Would be quite the vision at first.

 

Pros: much safer for the pitcrew (presumably wouldn't be called up unless it's something the robot can't fix). Potentially spectacular and eyebrow-raising, specially at first.

Cons: no more winning the race on the pits due to a well executed team pitstop that does better than another team's crew. Expensive. Soulless.

 

Gets a cautious thumbs up from me.

[Kalmake]

They seem lost.

 

1000bhp with EV is always some peak number. Doesn't mean much.

 

Removing ICE sound while speaking of sensory overload.

 

Pit stop robots might be impressive... once. Removing human element makes things very predictable.

[LucaP]

That's.... very german

[Tsarwash]

Excellent idea. It'll probably fail horribly. But that will be fun in itself. 

[MKSixer]

Don't they already do this in video games?

[Ben1445]

[AustinF1]

I love that they're not ignoring hydrogen.

[ArrowsLivery]

Spectacular. Soul-less vacuum cleaner powertrains.
Pick one.

[balage06]

I think it's an interesting concept for sure, the question is how can they put the theory into practice. But I do feel Formula E could benefit from strong competition in the future, because it's kinda becoming the Max Verstappen of FIA series: supporters brush off criticism with sentences like "come on, it has barely started, but it has a bright future, come back in five years and this thing will be legendary", then you slowly realize that five years have already passed and even though it looks slightly more polished, more mature, after a few races it turns out it's still the same stuff after all.

[Pingguest]

How can DTM pioneer if the technology is standardized.

[ElectricBoogie]

 

That's... new. Would be quite the vision at first.

Have DTM gotten themselves on the interwebs forums?
I've been preaching this for quite a while.

My RC car in the 80's had a swappable battery. Why not a 2020's DTM let alone F1 car?

Really such a battery needs not have tremendous capacity. But once the tech allows it, why not? Decently long stint, high power.

Making a DTM level electric race car to race at same lap time with just one or two quick stops shouldn't be too hard.

Edited by ElectricBoogie, 07 November 2019 - 20:32.

[Vielleicht]

I think it's an interesting concept for sure, the question is how can they put the theory into practice. But I do feel Formula E could benefit from strong competition in the future, because it's kinda becoming the Max Verstappen of FIA series: supporters brush off criticism with sentences like "come on, it has barely started, but it has a bright future, come back in five years and this thing will be legendary", then you slowly realize that five years have already passed and even though it looks slightly more polished, more mature, after a few races it turns out it's still the same stuff after all.

I can defintely agree with the bolded sentiment. The more the merrier for me, especially now that Formula E has a full capacity grid. Bobby Rahal says he is interested in branching his team out to electric racing but says he's missed out on getting a foot in the door early for FE, hence his I-Pace eTrophy entry.

 

I can't wait to see more electric categories start up and try and do things their own way.

[Vielleicht]

As for the announcement itself, I don't think DTM really has much of a coice but to consider future electric options and to do so publically like this as well. It's just a sensible thing to do, in my opinion.

 

They're also clear on what they want this technolgy to be befroe it can be adopted:

- techically feasible

- financially viable

- has clear fan, manufaturere and sponsor interest

 

And those are fair enough standards to hold as condtions for adoption. Personally, I'm fairly confident that all three conditions are likely to be met within the next decade. I like the intent of this, whatever the final product of it will be.

[Beri]

At least it's hydrogen. About time.

[Ben1445]

It's not definitely hydrogen, they're just looking at possibilities for an electrically powered future in which hydrogen is one of the options.

 

I think current market momentum would have to make a massive shift towards hydrogen before it stands a good chance of be adopted by DTM, the kind of shift we already see starting with battery electrics. 

[RA2]

Swapping batteries so that they can use prime cells?

[ElectricBoogie]

It's either being polite or setting up hydrogen for a monumental diss. 
What's the highest power output from a hydrogen power unit in a personal vehicle, so far?
A battery could buffer to smooth out the peak demand, but a DTM like car with 1000 hp peak still needs 400 kW average over a lap. That makes it a 15 minute stint on the largest commercial battery currently on the market, in a Tesla (that once used to also come in more environmentally sensible battery options).
Even at 300 kW average over a lap, that's just 20 minutes. 
The power output aspired to is certainly that, aspirational. 
If any of the rumoured high energy density cells were to become reality in series production, enough to supply two or three batteries for 30-40 DTM cars (including spares), even if only ready for about 50-100 cycles which should last a whole season...stint could be longer at such a high pace, or much lighter for short stints, or a combination.
Commercially, 500-1000 charge cycles are needed to make an automotive cell viable. Experimental technologies will usually aim at (really) high energy densities. Power density is well enough. Example is the Porsche Taycan battery that will barely show a hint of fatigue in outright track load, until the battery is empty. And plenty powerful to be DTM worthy. If a race car could shed close to a ton and have a battery swap, that would make for some extensive great racing, at TODAY'S state of the art, commercially.
Experimentally, there ought to be cells out there that can double stints or more. Just not recharge as often, or at all. To uphold the sense of responsibility, a battery should last a season, don't you think? That's too bad, because there are awesome one-way batteries that don't cost too much and offer way more power or stint length. And there's recycling. Affordable to develop and produce, costly per stint.

 

How long does a race fan need a stint to last for it to constitute "exciting" or "fun" to watch?
Formula E by looking away from swappable batteries and forcing itself to sqeeze 48 minutes or so from a battery, now has a pretty low power car relatively to the expertise of the driver field.
Cars lap similarly to F3. Which in itself doesn't sell many grandstand tickets.
Racing on super tight street is needed to somewhat make it to the end of the race. This was already a fact when they still used the car swap mid race which was a slap in the face of engineering and road relevance. The tyres, I'll admit, are the most road relevant in racing, because they are basically road tires. Further slowing cars down, while making the cars seem somewhat powerful by lack of traction/grip. When did racing last NEED slow tyres?
In the 90's when I followed racing more closely, DTM and F3 had about the same lap times. On high speed tracks, DTM would lap quicker (old Hockenheim), more corners was better for F3.
An electric DTM car built with genuine intent, could well end up faster than F3. Even on Monaco style tracks. AWD is more attainable, more torque vectoring options if allowed.
On a decent battery, DTM could have a race as long as FE but output more than double the power using just one battery swap stop. Let alone when going more power dense and for 2 stops.

FIA supposedly awarded FE a long terms electric open wheel single seater monopoly? If so I wonder why and on which terms. Slow racing?

Off-topic: I'm currently travelling in Eastern Europe. Lots of dirt/rubble roads. And outright bad state of repair ie potholes. It would be so awesome to have an electric off-road vehicle to negotiate the lovely villages without going all Dakar hooligan on the unsuspecting villagers. Someone is finally making an Ariel Nomad electric conversion. That ought be as much fun as one can have with goggles on.

[Beri]

It's not definitely hydrogen, they're just looking at possibilities for an electrically powered future in which hydrogen is one of the options.

I think current market momentum would have to make a massive shift towards hydrogen before it stands a good chance of be adopted by DTM, the kind of shift we already see starting with battery electrics.

Well, the concept for DTM that were discussing here is what it says: a concept.
It's a bunch of ideas, but it definitely includes hydrogen.

[Ben1445]

Well, the concept for DTM that were discussing here is what it says: a concept.
It's a bunch of ideas, but it definitely includes hydrogen.

I never said it didn’t, was just clarifying that we all understand that using hydrogen is only one of their considerations and not the sole concept.

[r4mses]

 

this might actually get me back to watching DTM

[BobbyRicky]

Spectacular. Soul-less vacuum cleaner powertrains.
Pick one.

 

Okay, boomer.

[RA2]

It would be more dramatic if the battries are changed when the car is moving in the pitlane.

 

The battery pack by itself robotic with its own shate board sized wheels

Edited by RA2, 08 November 2019 - 12:43.

[BalanceUT]

Each team designing their own robotic solutions to the pitstop would bring yet another element of visible differentiation between teams. 

[BalanceUT]

Okay, boomer.

Me = boomer. 

Me = pro-electric and automation. 

Me = access code for my millennial students taking an exam right now was "OkayBoomer"... they laughed as I said, "I'll lean into that." LOL!

Edited by BalanceUT, 08 November 2019 - 14:21.

[BobbyRicky]

Me = boomer. 

Me = pro-electric and automation. 

Me = access code for my millennial students taking an exam right now was "OkayBoomer"... they laughed as I said, "I'll lean into that." LOL!

 

Got to love some banter between generations you know. Humor unites the people.