195 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

Actually not too large of a surprise or immediate impact, but seems important anyway. I have a feeling they will not be the only ones in the long run.

 

https://www.motorspo...rt-tcr/4601530/
 

Volkswagen will end its factory support of all programmes using internal combustion engines after implementing a motorsport strategy focused on electric mobility.

In a statement released on Friday, Volkswagen said its motorsport division's "clear emphasis on fully electric racing cars" would be complemented by a "farewell" to all regular programmes, which would include stopping the production of its Golf GTI TCR car at the end of this year.
 

 

A spokesperson confirmed to Motorsport.com that the decision will bring an immediate end to the development of a new TCR car based on the Mk8 Golf, and Volkswagen Motorsport's alliance with the Sebastien Loeb Racing World Touring Car Cup team.

 

Of course cannot go unmentioned that other programmes within the larger VW group are not affected at this stage.

Edited by Vielleicht, 22 November 2019 - 23:29.

[Vielleicht]

https://e-racing365....ric-motorsport/

As part of its wholesale electrification, Volkswagen plans to base its future ID. family race cars on the Modular Electric Drive Toolkit (MEB) used by its production wing.

[JHSingo]

So, where's it going to race then? All very well saying that, but VW isn't currently in Formula E, is it?

 

Yet more PR guff to try and get people to forget diesel-gate, and say how wonderful VW now is.

 

Or is that me just being cynical again?

[pdac]

So, where's it going to race then? All very well saying that, but VW isn't currently in Formula E, is it?

 

Yet more PR guff to try and get people to forget diesel-gate, and say how wonderful VW now is.

 

Or is that me just being cynical again?

 

Or maybe this is the beginning of the end for fossil fuel motorsport. Maybe one by one they'll all pull out.

[ATM]

Too soon. Nobody leaves a working market if they’re not forced to do it. If there is still demand, somebody else will step up and full the void.
So, I’m going with the PR agenda guff for the time being.

[Vielleicht]

So, where's it going to race then? All very well saying that, but VW isn't currently in Formula E, is it?

 

Yet more PR guff to try and get people to forget diesel-gate, and say how wonderful VW now is.

 

Or is that me just being cynical again?

Well... there's a healthy dose of that, let's be honest about it.

 

But the news of real value is that it sounds like they want to race their MEB platform in some capacity. The MEB is their new, ground-up battery EV platform intended for use across the VW group including VW, Audi, Seat and Skoda. Racing this in some sort of touring car championship (either existing or future) would make sense.

[Fastcake]

Important. Expect to see more of this in the future.

 

Like it or not, electric is the future, and it's coming far quicker than I ever thought it would.

[Vielleicht]

Or maybe this is the beginning of the end for fossil fuel motorsport. Maybe one by one they'll all pull out.

I think it's just a shift that motorsport needs to be aware of and understand. I don't think this is the last of this kind of annoucement that we will see in the next 5-10 years. For example, Daimler has also announced it is ending commercial ICE development (not sales) in the 2020s, how long will it be before they end up making a similar announcement - at least for the flagship, factory-backed race programmes?

 

At the end of the day, it's a shake up of the way things currently are. That brings oppportunity both for EV and ICE racing, depending on who plays their cards right.

[doc83]

So, where's it going to race then? All very well saying that, but VW isn't currently in Formula E, is it?

 

Yet more PR guff to try and get people to forget diesel-gate, and say how wonderful VW now is.

 

Or is that me just being cynical again?

 

I own VW a diesel-gate engine and I got zero compensation from VW. Literally nothing. It's all lies and PR. The company from my perspective may disappear altogether.

[ElectricBoogie]

There's the I-Pace eTrophy. 
Wouldn't hurt for VW to get a nice cup car together that offer good excitement and lap times. A bit more race engineering into it will make that happen.
Could be an accessible rally cross series. Small batteries, light cars.

If they want something, they can make it happen and make it work.
A time attack version, factory, of the ID.4 would be popular. A battery for one lap at the Nordschleife. A free charger on that track and others.
Then a Formula ID. Again, small battery, light enough car. Laps at fast as a F4. 
None would be too expensive, but gain good promotion for the brand as the future of electric autosports.

[JavierDeVivre]

Important. Expect to see more of this in the future.

Like it or not, electric is the future, and it's coming far quicker than I ever thought it would.

Then watch them reverse it pretty quickly when their sales figures nose dive. The industry are falling for their own PR nonsense in regards to EVs, they are not as popular and viable as they wish to believe.

It will be wonderful time to be in the second hand car market though, since there will be a greater demand for real usable cars instead of novelty ornament EVs.

[ElectricBoogie]

Then watch them reverse it pretty quickly when their sales figures nose dive. The industry are falling for their own PR nonsense in regards to EVs, they are not as popular and viable as they wish to believe.

It will be wonderful time to be in the second hand car market though, since there will be a greater demand for real usable cars instead of novelty ornament EVs.

You make it seem as if it's a choice and if BEVs can end up not being what replace ICEVs.

This is happening. Soon enough you'll be paying extra in taxes, fuel and even purchase price to be able to burn gas. They can reduce allowed tank sizes, horsepower, fuel flow, etc, if the conversion goes too slowly.
The reak question is whether festivals with historical cars will be allowed to exist. Be loud, burn petrol in public, etc.

[404KF2]

I wonder how they'll manage to cheat customers with their electric cars.....maybe just the rust and reliability problems, rather than that plus emissions cheating.....

[loki]

So does that mean VAG won’t be joining F1 in 2021?...

[Widefoot2]

So does that mean VAG won’t be joining F1 in 2021?...

The racing version of: "Does that mean he's not coming on, then?".

[Widefoot2]

I think it's just a shift that motorsport needs to be aware of and understand. I don't think this is the last of this kind of annoucement that we will see in the next 5-10 years. For example, Daimler has also announced it is ending commercial ICE development (not sales) in the 2020s, how long will it be before they end up making a similar announcement - at least for the flagship, factory-backed race programmes?

Depending on how significant "near term" weather and political events are, it could be even faster.  We could see emergency declarations that shut down all manner of "inefficient" events, even things like concerts and the like.  Whatever involves mass movement of people consumes energy, and may be forced to shrink or disappear as a sop towards "fixing" things.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Important. Expect to see more of this in the future.

Like it or not, electric is the future, and it's coming far quicker than I ever thought it would.

Yes, but it’s not the right fix.

This is good motor vehicle equivalent of the fat vs sugar debate ...

The petrol ICE is actually quite clean - The Diesels aren’t.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Depending on how significant "near term" weather and political events are, it could be even faster. We could see emergency declarations that shut down all manner of "inefficient" events, even things like concerts and the like. Whatever involves mass movement of people consumes energy, and may be forced to shrink or disappear as a sop towards "fixing" things.

Also know as population control.

We are moving to a dictatorship - under the guise of saving the planet! Time to wake up!

Will they ground all the aircraft first?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 23 November 2019 - 07:11.

[balage06]

You guys forgot about this it seems.

https://electric-tcr.com/en/

[Requiem84]

Then watch them reverse it pretty quickly when their sales figures nose dive. The industry are falling for their own PR nonsense in regards to EVs, they are not as popular and viable as they wish to believe.

It will be wonderful time to be in the second hand car market though, since there will be a greater demand for real usable cars instead of novelty ornament EVs.

When are you learning your lesson this is actually happening?

You (again) sound very much in denial about the world outside you. OEM’s are going to focus on electric, whether you like it or not.

[Vielleicht]

You guys forgot about this it seems.

https://electric-tcr.com/en/

Yes, very relevant in this case.

 

The initial ETCR plan though is currently based on taking existing TCR chassis and retrofitting them with spec battery/motor units. VW is saying that it would like to race its new MEB platform which is a pure, commercial battery EV in its own right. Allowing these to compete would be the natural progresson for ETCR to take, but can they adapt plans soon enough? 

 

FE is as good as it is now because it got the timing and the format just right for launching in the mid 2010s. There will be more elecric series in coming years and those who suceed will also need to judge the 2020s situation correctly if they want to be sccessful.

Edited by Vielleicht, 23 November 2019 - 07:51.

[Requiem84]

Why aren’t there any hydrogen series yet?

[Vielleicht]

There's the I-Pace eTrophy.
Wouldn't hurt for VW to get a nice cup car together that offer good excitement and lap times. A bit more race engineering into it will make that happen.
Could be an accessible rally cross series. Small batteries, light cars.

If they want something, they can make it happen and make it work.
A time attack version, factory, of the ID.4 would be popular. A battery for one lap at the Nordschleife. A free charger on that track and others.
Then a Formula ID. Again, small battery, light enough car. Laps at fast as a F4.
None would be too expensive, but gain good promotion for the brand as the future of electric autosports.

Yeah, they could easily set something like that up if they have the will. They could run such categories as support series or as stand alone ‘VW ID World Series’ events where they’re all on the same day at race tracks around the world. A bit like Renault used to do.

It’s all fascinating to me.

Edited by Vielleicht, 23 November 2019 - 08:04.

[Ben1445]

Why aren’t there any hydrogen series yet?

WEC/Le Mans are hoping to look into it for endurance racing
https://www.autospor...le-mans-by-2024

But I think the main reason is that the market just isn't mature enough to support it yet. The most popular battery electric vehicle models are selling well into the 100,000s and recharging stations are actually a common sight these days (depending on where you live). There are only four production hydrogen cars on sale and the most popular (Toyota Mirai) is only selling into the 1000s. Hydrogen refuelling stations are also few and far between. Basically the battery EV market is way more established and has been able to support a racing series before Hydrogen.

Hydrogen has its own problems to solve, like not producing 95% of the hydrogen from fossil fuel cracking and catching up on battery vehicle tech and infrastructure. I personally think most of us leaving behind the ICE will be switching to battery EVs rather than hydrogen and hydrogen will be used for more heavy duty, long range applications like trucks/lorries, coaches, trains and the like. For your average day to day vehicle, I think hydrogen's supposed advantage is actually fading.

Edited by Ben1445, 23 November 2019 - 09:57.

[TennisUK]

All very well saying that, but VW isn't currently in Formula E, is it?

Well, Porsche is.

[Sterzo]

Too soon. Nobody leaves a working market if they’re not forced to do it.

Nobody puts their marketing effort into the declining part of their market; they direct their energy at the growing part with the most potential.

[krapmeister]

Or maybe this is the beginning of the end for fossil fuel motorsport. Maybe one by one they'll all pull out.

 

I can definitely see the major OEM brands pulling out of ICE-based motorsport, but I am sure fossil fuel motorsport will continue for a while yet - unless of course governments ban fossil fuels completely.

[Ben1445]

I can definitely see the major OEM brands pulling out of ICE-based motorsport, but I am sure fossil fuel motorsport will continue for a while yet - unless of course governments ban fossil fuels completely.

I agree, but the nature of ICE racing would inevitably change. Even if it remains permitted, without OEM cash and less will from sponsors to associate with ICE racing then budgets could be significantly reduced on what they are today.

[JavierDeVivre]

When are you learning your lesson this is actually happening?

You (again) sound very much in denial about the world outside you. OEM’s are going to focus on electric, whether you like it or not.

I can see it's happening, but unlike some I aren't getting carried away.

The OEM's are getting in on it because it an extra revenue stream for them, they can sell their vehicles with a more premium price tag simply because they have downgraded the vehicle's usability by replacing the ICE with batteries and an electric motor.

They are able to fleece money out of EV fans whilst also providing ordinary cars for the majority of the customer base.

You can fool the easily fooled, but there will always be those who are more knowledgable that won't be.

Perhaps i should start preparing and buy a fleet of generators, I will make a killing in this supposed EV future, charging the toy cars st the road side for a fee when they die.

[JavierDeVivre]

Well, Porsche is.

Audi too, not that you would know from yesterday's race...

[pdac]

Always remember that there are major political issues like climate change that will make government force people to change. But also remember that the whole world is now capitalist and, as such, money will always trump. If the money aspect will destabalise a goverment or state, then the government will choose to defer or postpone policies.

 

As far as the move towards EV, the big money is going that way. So I think it's inevitable that ICE in mainstream motorsport is on the way out. Of course, though, it will remain as a niche interest. But the megabuck will not be there in the future.

[Clatter]

Always remember that there are major political issues like climate change that will make government force people to change. But also remember that the whole world is now capitalist and, as such, money will always trump. If the money aspect will destabalise a goverment or state, then the government will choose to defer or postpone policies.

As far as the move towards EV, the big money is going that way. So I think it's inevitable that ICE in mainstream motorsport is on the way out. Of course, though, it will remain as a niche interest. But the megabuck will not be there in the future.

I hope VW are going to spend some of that money on their EV road cars. Took a quick look and range anxiety would be an issue very quickly.

[JHSingo]

Well, Porsche is.

 

But not VW as a single entity. I don't believe there has ever been talk that VW would enter Formula E, which is odd when you consider pretty much every single other big German brand is.

 

But if you do consider the whole VWAG group, this statement isn't even true - since Porsche is entered as a manufacturer in the GTE class in WEC and GTLM in IMSA , for instance.

Edited by JHSingo, 23 November 2019 - 12:32.

[pdac]

I hope VW are going to spend some of that money on their EV road cars. Took a quick look and range anxiety would be an issue very quickly.

 

But that holds true for all big manufacturers who are heading down the EV route. The fact is that this will not be the first time in history where the world decides they are going with something inferior and will ban the better option in order to force it through.

[NixxxoN]

So, where's it going to race then? All very well saying that, but VW isn't currently in Formula E, is it?
 
Yet more PR guff to try and get people to forget diesel-gate, and say how wonderful VW now is.
 
Or is that me just being cynical again?

It's not PR guff. Its a logical move. VW made a mistake in the past, they paid the price and surely learnt from it.

It makes complete sense from car manufacturers to end the combustion-engined motorsports from R&D point of view... Sadly for us that dont want it to end.

And who cares if they use the VW brand, or Audi brand, or Porsche brand, or whatever... they are all the same group.

Edited by NixxxoN, 23 November 2019 - 12:52.

[Sunnny]

So does that mean VAG won’t be joining F1 in 2021?...

 

lol when did they ever say they will? FE is the future. 

[Clatter]

But that holds true for all big manufacturers who are heading down the EV route. The fact is that this will not be the first time in history where the world decides they are going with something inferior and will ban the better option in order to force it through.

 

Is around 150 mile range the norm? The few I've looked at have been better than that.

[Requiem84]

Is around 150 mile range the norm? The few I've looked at have been better than that.

250 miles is becoming the norm and its increasing. Newest Tesla truck has around 350 miles range.

[Clatter]

250 miles is becoming the norm and its increasing. Newest Tesla truck has around 350 miles range.

 

Thats about what I've seen, which makes the VW offering rather unattractive.

[Requiem84]

I can see it's happening, but unlike some I aren't getting carried away.

The OEM's are getting in on it because it an extra revenue stream for them, they can sell their vehicles with a more premium price tag simply because they have downgraded the vehicle's usability by replacing the ICE with batteries and an electric motor.

They are able to fleece money out of EV fans whilst also providing ordinary cars for the majority of the customer base.

You can fool the easily fooled, but there will always be those who are more knowledgable that won't be.

Perhaps i should start preparing and buy a fleet of generators, I will make a killing in this supposed EV future, charging the toy cars st the road side for a fee when they die.

You are fooled, by your own conservatism.

EV’s are no simple extra revenue stream for standard ICE OEM’s. It requires bizarre amount of investments to make this transition. It will take quite a few loss making years to earn back the investment.

There’s a big push from governments and local municipalities to get rid of ICE.

In turn that will give non ICE OEMs a lot of tax benefits, cheaper production etc.

ICE is slowly dying.

Will the future be EV? I dont know. Might be something else. But if you think ICE will still rule the world in 20 years time, you’re full on in denial.

[Fatgadget]

But that holds true for all big manufacturers who are heading down the EV route. The fact is that this will not be the first time in history where the world decides they are going with something inferior and will ban the better option in order to force it through.

Yeah.Just like back in the early days of electric cars eh!

[Vielleicht]

But not VW as a single entity. I don't believe there has ever been talk that VW would enter Formula E, which is odd when you consider pretty much every single other big German brand is.

 

But if you do consider the whole VWAG group, this statement isn't even true - since Porsche is entered as a manufacturer in the GTE class in WEC and GTLM in IMSA , for instance.

What they do enter or where they race is a very interesting question. They don't have an large programmes right now and that is in part because they've been charting a new course since diesel-gate, and this is the result.

 

An FE entry probably is off the table for now, especially with Audi and Porsche in there already. I'm not sure it's ever really been a match with their brand anyway tbh. They might apply pressure to people like ETCR and WRX to find a place to race the I.D.3 competitively, or they could set up their own trophy/cup series with I.D. technology. Perhaps if an electric junior single seater feeder series starts up they could be involved with powertain supply like they were in F3. Maybe Extreme E.

 

There's lots of options I think. There will be more electric racing than just FE and in one of those VW will almost certianly be involved.

Edited by Vielleicht, 23 November 2019 - 13:24.

[Ben1445]

But that holds true for all big manufacturers who are heading down the EV route. The fact is that this will not be the first time in history where the world decides they are going with something inferior and will ban the better option in order to force it through.

It's not inferior if it cuts overall emission levels. As long as an ICE is using hydrocarbon fuel they will only be more and more problematic in the future. 

 

The Concorde was superior to competitors in transatlantic flight times but inferior in terms profitability and pollution. If all you care about is flight time you get a different answer for which the superior option than the other two. 

 

The real tipping point for EVs will probably be cost parity (when it becomes cheaper to purchase and cheaper to run/maintain then ICEs) because I think finance is a much bigger influence than range anxiety compared to ICEs. We've actually come a really long way with the technology, in this decade alone, in both performance and price. We mustn't forget that. 

[Ben1445]

An FE entry probably is off the table for now, especially with Audi and Porsche in there already. I'm not sure it's ever really been a match with their brand anyway tbh. They might apply pressure to people like ETCR and WRX to find a place to race the I.D.3 competitively, or they could set up their own trophy/cup series with I.D. technology. Perhaps if an electric junior single seater feeder series starts up they could be involved with powertain supply like they were in F3. Maybe Extreme E.

ETCR and eWRX are both planning retrofitted ICE body shells aren't they? What touring car series could newer, bespoke EV architecture race in? I'd love to see an I.D. 3 racing in something like BTCC, a reflection of your average hatchbacks, but I don't see the organisers being on board with anything like that anytime soon. Is VW moving too fast or established series moving too slow? 

[ElectricBoogie]

Yeah, they could easily set something like that up if they have the will. They could run such categories as support series or as stand alone ‘VW ID World Series’ events where they’re all on the same day at race tracks around the world. A bit like Renault used to do.

It’s all fascinating to me.

Yeah, I may have been too unambitious to mention F4. To go more for a FR3.5/F2 kind of series, they could really put their stamp of intent on the sport and the future.
I've written enough in FE threads that with the right will, a BEV race car can be much faster than FE is today. Just make the battery swappable (DTM listened), use proper slicks and use some 80's level aero. It's not that hard! FE was allowed to be this big due to explicitly not challenging other open wheel series on pace. It's a silent F3 car, pretty much.
VW ID World Series could be a step above. And not be all that expensive. Spec series, right. So just the same cost as FE or less. Battery swaps make it GP track capable. 
If I had the money, I'd LOVE to take the fight to FE. Show them how it's done. BEVs need not be that slow.
Notice that the announce $70K Tesla Cybertruck matches a Formula E car for 0-60 and probably beats it over 1/4 mile? FE is a compliance series like some road BEV are compliance cars. NOt made to be good, just made to achieve some portfolio demands.

[Vielleicht]

I can just about imagine VW taking it's own series around classic tracks with I.D.3/Audi/SEAT/Skoda MEB based touring cars, an F4 level electric junior single seater series, some sort of I.D. R derived thing and an F3-F2 level single seater headline event. Might take a while to sort out and introduce categories one by one organically. Might need a non-FIA sanctioning body if they want single seaters unless they want to test FE's exclusivity contract. Would need lots of funding though and might be too big a risk for them. Not a completely crazy idea though.

 

ETCR and eWRX are both planning retrofitted ICE body shells aren't they? What touring car series could newer, bespoke EV architecture race in? I'd love to see an I.D. 3 racing in something like BTCC, a reflection of your average hatchbacks, but I don't see the organisers being on board with anything like that anytime soon. Is VW moving too fast or established series moving too slow? 

Bit of both I reckon. Series like TCR/ETCR and BTCC obviosuly don't want to shake up what they have too much, preferring incremental changes. But there is a risk that manufacturers will have a load of bespoke battery vehicles which could be raced as touring cars with no ruleset visibly ready to accept them as of yet. Would ETCR allow an I.D.3? I don't know. Maybe. You'd have thought they should.

 

But I don't think it's very clear. It's why the one-make trophy/cup option may be something of a bridging option for now.

[pdac]

It's not inferior if it cuts overall emission levels.

 

I suspect that the real reason for this push is not so much about saving the planet as where the remaining oil reserves are and the political situations in those regions.

[Requiem84]

I suspect that the real reason for this push is not so much about saving the planet as where the remaining oil reserves are and the political situations in those regions.

That is a part maybe, but environmental reasons are a push too.

Governments make EV’s more attractive tax wise and capitalism jumps in (out of self interest obviously).

[Ben1445]

Politics and the like may be in the boardrooms... but environmental concerns are absolutely key at the consumer end, the people actually buying and using the cars. 

[pdac]

Politics and the like may be in the boardrooms... but environmental concerns are absolutely key at the consumer end, the people actually buying and using the cars. 

 

I don't believe this. People will not say that they could not care less about the environment, but I think people are only concerned about the environment as long as it doesn't cost them very much. There are very few selfless people in the world and there are zero selfless politicians.

 

The boardroom are interested in growing trends. There's lots of talk about the environment and it currently is costing people very little to say "yes, I'm concerned too". So it's a growing trend that companies (and politicians) can exploit.