195 replies to this topic

[Alfisti]

i still have NFI why racing cars need to environmentally friendly. They are a spec of dust in regards to global emissions. It is fundamental to the sport to hear the driver battling a mechanical device, motor racing in near silence is akin to sex with a blow up doll.

 

If one wants to address waste int he sport then;

 

- Correct the calendar so there is way less zig zagging about 

- Use one tyre compound plus wets or even inters (as we don't race in wets anymore anyway), 5 sets for the weekend, that's it. This also reduces freight emissions. 

- Reduce pit dudes to 6 guys to drastically reduce staff and therefore freight emissions

 

Done. 

[mclara]

Long trips are not really the issue, I will never understand people arguing this way or saying "we don't have the electricity", we will figure that out. Medium trips are far more concerning, say a one hour drive in bad weather and you want to return to where you came from but you are on 60% charge so now you're nervous and need a charge to be sure .... it's trips like that not cross country epics where sure you will stop for a feed and pee. 

 

I don't drive EV so i wouldn't know what the real issue is. I was just using someone's elses example where they planned a route with approx. 8-9 hours of driving time.

 

The problem for most people is charging time and range. And you are not suppose to drive the EV to the batteries are close to empty which limits your range even more.

 

The reason why people have som much againts EV at least from what I have understood in Norway, is that the government spend so much money on subsidizing a product that is inferior to thire fossiled fueled rivals. Money that could be spent on other environment program that would benefit the whole popolation and not giving rich people in Oslo west a reason to buy an expensive Tesla. Because that is whats happening right now....

[Augurk]

Um no. The issue is not range, as i keep saying and you keep ignoring, it's charge time combined with range. Yeah i drive my car close to empty because i can fill i tin 2 minutes. If it takes 2 hours to fill I am far more likely to make sure I never leave the house unless topped up.

 

You guys are trying to will something to fruition that is not ready. We went through this with autonomous vehicles where we were promised they would revolutionize mobility by now and they have been an embarrassing failure. 

 

Also this whole "costs to manufacture will come down" argument. When?? We have been told that for nigh on a decade and still every single electric car has lost money. Tesla has small moments of profit before hemorrhaging money for extended periods, the i3, Leaf etc have all lost billions. And this is with HEAVY subsidies that are unsustainable if mass adoption took place.

 

You guys are dreaming. Seriously dreaming. 

Maybe we don't want to understand each other. Range and charging time is definitely connected. In practice, most charging happens when you're not waiting on the car. It's at home at night or at your destination while you're at work or in a meeting. Then for the longer trips there are very fast charging capabilities. Current gen cars don't even need 1 hour to fill up to 100% on a fast charger (which you rarely do), so you're completely right in saying I don't understand the issue. 

 

Yep, if you regularly want to drive for more than 4 hours straight without any form of break current gen EVs aren't for you. But most people don't, thankfully. But it's a shame if you're not even willing (to reduce your impact on the environment) to change that attitude to driving for 3-4 hours, then charging for about 30-40 minutes and driving another 3-4 hours. Hopefully most people are willing to accept that some form of change is necessary, even if the progress made in EVs will make it more and more compatible with different needs in use.

[F1Lurker]

i still have NFI why racing cars need to environmentally friendly. They are a spec of dust in regards to global emissions. It is fundamental to the sport to hear the driver battling a mechanical device, motor racing in near silence is akin to sex with a blow up doll.

 

If one wants to address waste int he sport then;

 

- Correct the calendar so there is way less zig zagging about 

- Use one tyre compound plus wets or even inters (as we don't race in wets anymore anyway), 5 sets for the weekend, that's it. This also reduces freight emissions. 

- Reduce pit dudes to 6 guys to drastically reduce staff and therefore freight emissions

 

Done. 

In terms of actual emissions you are 100% right. But for manufacturers, F1 is about marketing, and to a lesser extent, R&D, and staff training. I truly believe that 4 to 8 years from now a manufacturer being in a F1 that uses ICEs would NOT be 1) good marketing OR 2) good R&D.

 

More and more young persons and many affluent persons of all ages want strong action to move the world away from CO₂ emitting technologies—these people make their case with their wallets.  A few critical articles (a few years from now) about Mercedes and Honda (for example) spending hundreds of millions of year in F1 on polluting technologies could have a material impact on their brands and thus sales. Symbolism and narratives are important.

Edited by F1Lurker, 25 November 2019 - 17:07.

[Augurk]

I don't drive EV so i wouldn't know what the real issue is. I was just using someone's elses example where they planned a route with approx. 8-9 hours of driving time.

 

The problem for most people is charging time and range. And you are not suppose to drive the EV to the batteries are close to empty which limits your range even more.

 

The reason why people have som much againts EV at least from what I have understood in Norway, is that the government spend so much money on subsidizing a product that is inferior to thire fossiled fueled rivals. Money that could be spent on other environment program that would benefit the whole popolation and not giving rich people in Oslo west a reason to buy an expensive Tesla. Because that is whats happening right now....

In what way are EVs inferior to fossil fuel cars, other than range and charging times? Which - again - is no issue for average use of a personal vehicle. Then there's a lot of benefits that counter those 2 things. 

[Augurk]

i still have NFI why racing cars need to environmentally friendly. They are a spec of dust in regards to global emissions. It is fundamental to the sport to hear the driver battling a mechanical device, motor racing in near silence is akin to sex with a blow up doll.

 

If one wants to address waste int he sport then;

 

- Correct the calendar so there is way less zig zagging about 

- Use one tyre compound plus wets or even inters (as we don't race in wets anymore anyway), 5 sets for the weekend, that's it. This also reduces freight emissions. 

- Reduce pit dudes to 6 guys to drastically reduce staff and therefore freight emissions

 

Done. 

As F1Lurker said it's much more about the bigger message than it is about the actual emmission of the show. I dare not say road relevance, but in this case it's more "state of the world"-relevance. Public opinion is shifting away from accepting burning of fossil fuels and emitting greenhouse gasses. If anything manufacturers want to cater to the public opinion, not against it!

[Requiem84]

i still have NFI why racing cars need to environmentally friendly. They are a spec of dust in regards to global emissions. It is fundamental to the sport to hear the driver battling a mechanical device, motor racing in near silence is akin to sex with a blow up doll.

 

If one wants to address waste int he sport then;

 

- Correct the calendar so there is way less zig zagging about 

- Use one tyre compound plus wets or even inters (as we don't race in wets anymore anyway), 5 sets for the weekend, that's it. This also reduces freight emissions. 

- Reduce pit dudes to 6 guys to drastically reduce staff and therefore freight emissions

 

Done. 

 

Then you completely missed the point.

 

It's not about the 'polution' of 20 race cars on a track, it is all about the marketing. 

 

All manufacturers who are in racing are in racing as a marketing tool, or brand exposure tool if you like. They have very smart guys calculating the Return on Investment of their racing expenses. The moment it becomes more profitable to race electric, all manufacturers will make quick work of it. In fact, this has been happening with a huge pace already! 

 

Pure racing teams like Williams problaby do not really care as long as they can fund themselves. But how interested will non-car sponsors be (Unilever etc) to sponsor ICE racing when OEM's are making the switch? 

[Pingguest]

It is not only about marketing. Motor sports could play an important role in developing transportation to be friendly to public health, the environment and global climate.

[Requiem84]

It is not only about marketing. Motor sports could play an important role in developing transportation to be friendly to public health, the environment and global climate.

 

I consider that marketing too to be honest. 

 

'Company showing how they can make the world a better place'. 

[Alfisti]

The reason why people have som much againts EV at least from what I have understood in Norway, is that the government spend so much money on subsidizing a product that is inferior to thire fossiled fueled rivals. Money that could be spent on other environment program that would benefit the whole popolation and not giving rich people in Oslo west a reason to buy an expensive Tesla. Because that is whats happening right now....

 

The irony is Norway heavily subsidizes electric vehicles with ...... yep.......... oil and gas money. 

[Alfisti]

Then you completely missed the point.

 

It's not about the 'polution' of 20 race cars on a track, it is all about the marketing. 

 

Yeah i do not disagree, however i do wonder if folks that worry about the environmental aspect are really the type to follow motorsports anyway. And you risk losing your core base. 

[mclara]

In what way are EVs inferior to fossil fuel cars, other than range and charging times? Which - again - is no issue for average use of a personal vehicle. Then there's a lot of benefits that counter those 2 things. 

 

Well these are most important criterias for people because they actually use the car to get to places fast and convenient. Or else they would use trains or buses outside the cities and other public transportation in big cities. And then comes the prices as we have just discussed.

 

Just look to Norway who whas by far the biggest benefits for buying EV. Fossil fueled cars are expensive because of weight fees, emission fees and horsepower fees. EV skips two of these fees and even get total VAT exemption. And just to add to that, electricity is very cheap in Norway. Despite all of this most families still have a fossil fueled car additional to their EV. And on the countryside you have to travel far between every EV.

 

And look at Denmark; EV sales plummeted once they removed the benefits of buying EVs. That is a clear sign to me that most people think that EV are inferior to fossil fueled cars.

[Ben1445]

Professional level motorsport and marketing are intrinsically linked. Red Bull didn't choose to fund a race race for the fun of it, they did it because it sells drinks. 

 

It's why I don't quite get the general aversion to 'PR Fluff' - it's literally the thing paying for these cars to race around for your entertainment. 

[Alfisti]

Maybe we don't want to understand each other. Range and charging time is definitely connected. In practice, most charging happens when you're not waiting on the car. It's at home at night or at your destination while you're at work or in a meeting. Then for the longer trips there are very fast charging capabilities. Current gen cars don't even need 1 hour to fill up to 100% on a fast charger (which you rarely do), so you're completely right in saying I don't understand the issue. 

 

Who is building all these public chargers? The gas companies had motivation to do it but we would need millions of them to make this EV dream work and even then what happens when the tech changes and the current chargers are obsolete, who pays for it??

 

You guys are just not thinking this through, the full ecosystem of what would need to happen to see EV's take over. It is not going to happen. 

[Alfisti]

Just look to Norway who whas by far the biggest benefits for buying EV. Fossil fueled cars are expensive because of weight fees, emission fees and horsepower fees. EV skips two of these fees and even get total VAT exemption. And just to add to that, electricity is very cheap in Norway. Despite all of this most families still have a fossil fueled car additional to their EV. And on the countryside you have to travel far between every EV.

 

Give mean effin break, Norway can pay for all this because they sell vast, vast quantities of oil and gas!

 

The top exports of Norway are Crude Petroleum ($22.7B), Petroleum Gas ($21.6B), Non-fillet Fresh Fish ($5.24B), Refined Petroleum ($3.23B) and Raw Aluminium ($2.59B). So of the top 4 exports, 95% of the value is tied to some nasty as enviro damaging filth,.

 

****ing Norway. 

Edited by Alfisti, 25 November 2019 - 17:59.

[mclara]

Give mean effin break, Norway can pay for all this because they sell vast, vast quantities of oil and gas!

And what does that have to do with the fact that people tend to buy these cars because they are heavily subsidized?

Did you actually read what I wrote?

[Ben1445]

Who is building all these public chargers? The gas companies had motivation to do it but we would need millions of them to make this EV dream work and even then what happens when the tech changes and the current chargers are obsolete, who pays for it??

 

You guys are just not thinking this through, the full ecosystem of what would need to happen to see EV's take over. It is not going to happen. 

And I suppose the full ecosystem that allowed petrol ICE cars to take over from what came before just magically appeared out of nowhere? People said that wouldn't happen either. 

[Alfisti]

And what does that have to do with the fact that people tend to buy these cars because they are heavily subsidized?

Did you actually read what I wrote?

 

Because in the case of Norway, other than the sheer irony of it, if EV's are essentially subsidized by oil money and everyone switches to EV's and doesn't burn oil then there's no money for EV's as they cannot survive without the oil derived subsidy money.

 

It's full circle unsustainability. 

 

You can make the same argument in regards to VW, they are funding their EV program with ICE money, it better work because if they are left behind on the ICE front there will not be any money to prop up a money losing EV program. It's one thing to develop an EV product line to stand with your Hybrid and ICE offerings but to drop everything else and go full EV ...... utter madness. 

Edited by Alfisti, 25 November 2019 - 18:07.

[mclara]

Because in the case of Norway, other than the sheer irony of it, if EV's are essentially subsidized by oil money and everyone switches to EV's and doesn't burn oil then there's no money for EV's as they cannot survive withotu the opil derived subsidy money.

 

It's full circle unsustainability. 

Well this isn't about how the government spends their money but about whether or not poeple think that EV are inferior to fossil fueled cars. What I have mentioned so far should be a good indicator of just that. People don't buy EV unless they are subsidized...

[Alfisti]

We're saying the same thing chief. 

[Vielleicht]

Yeah i do not disagree, however i do wonder if folks that worry about the environmental aspect are really the type to follow motorsports anyway. And you risk losing your core base.

FE's audience has captured a much younger demographic than traditional motorsport. Last count has about 70% of FE viewers as under 35, with F1 being sort of the other way around.

Given that attracting younger viewers has been a challenge for traditional series, FE's success in this regard signals that the environemental aspect may actually be quite important to gaining these new, younger viewers that will sustain the sport in the coming decades.

Edited by Vielleicht, 25 November 2019 - 18:20.

[loki]

Who is building all these public chargers? The gas companies had motivation to do it but we would need millions of them to make this EV dream work and even then what happens when the tech changes and the current chargers are obsolete, who pays for it??

 

You guys are just not thinking this through, the full ecosystem of what would need to happen to see EV's take over. It is not going to happen. 

We have chargers everywhere locally and on the west coast including gas stations.  Some are Tesla but most are third party networks.  The charger ports are standardized.  You can charge a Leaf in the same bay you charge a Tesla.  

 

In the US the fuel and the auto industry are heavily subsidized by tax revenue, local incentives for plants, etc.  Because it’s rolled into government spending you don’t see it as a line item like you would if you bought a Leaf.   In comparison to what those industries get year after year a few grand for an EV is a drop in the bucket.  

[pdac]

Well this isn't about how the government spends their money but about whether or not poeple think that EV are inferior to fossil fueled cars. What I have mentioned so far should be a good indicator of just that. People don't buy EV unless they are subsidized...

 

People will buy EV if that's their only choice. That's where government comes in. If they ban the sale of non-EV vehicles or make it prohibitively expensive to buy one, then people will buy EV.

[Fatgadget]

Good riddance.

   VW were very successful in  Formula Vee and Rallying. And Formula Vee was about the most affordable racing category ever. What is there not to like?

[pdac]

We have chargers everywhere locally and on the west coast including gas stations.  Some are Tesla but most are third party networks.  The charger ports are standardized.  You can charge a Leaf in the same bay you charge a Tesla.  

 

In the US the fuel and the auto industry are heavily subsidized by tax revenue, local incentives for plants, etc.  Because it’s rolled into government spending you don’t see it as a line item like you would if you bought a Leaf.   In comparison to what those industries get year after year a few grand for an EV is a drop in the bucket.  

 

I saw a new item recently where they covered a trip in the UK by someone who was an EV convert. Although, in theory, there should not have been any problems, in practice he found that charging points were either in-use, faulty or were incompatible with all of the many charging cables that he had. The end result was that, having been an EV convert, he decided that he was going to sell his EV and get a 'normal' car.

 

Another issue that is not always highlighted ... I'm not sure what it's like in other big cities, but in London a great number of people cannot park their car close to where they live. This means that they would not be able to charge the car overnight.

 

So in the UK, at least, there is a very very very big amount of work to be done to put in the infrastructure needed to have the majority of people switch to EV effectively, I'm not convinced that any political party has the desire to spend the sorts or money required. That means that they will be looking to the private sector to provide the infrastructure. This, in turn, means that it's going to be patchy and, no doubt, expensive for the consumer.

[ElectricBoogie]

USA can afford to subsidise anything because they double their GDP with printed money that will never be repaid.
Norway exports more oil and gas than it can ever use itself, thus even ICEVs being banned locally wouldn't close their income stream in itself. Great window dressing.

I agree that most pollution takes place when we are not driving. Why, because most people don't even drive. Hard to imagine for most people in the English speaking world, but we are a monority. Extremely privileged to create more pollution than the majority combined. Pollution requires income. But income doesn't generate pollution in itself. Choices do.

I don't even have a car myself but can't even imagine driving a gas car anymore. So antiquated. Uncool. Apart from the pollution even. 

Let's hope even more inspiring BEV race series start attracting young people to racing and clean energy initiatives. But we should not look away from the other times we could be less wasteful. Like eating beef when the chicken on the menu is great as well. Let alone a mean veggie burger. That stuff really makes a difference. 

[ElectricBoogie]

Another issue that is not always highlighted ... I'm not sure what it's like in other big cities, but in London a great number of people cannot park their car close to where they live. This means that they would not be able to charge the car overnight.

And exactly London has this lamp post power outlet program I mentioned earlier. This is the way.

Let's not pretend that we need to charge EVERY day. For commuters with a PHEV, that may be the cars, but BEV's can probably make it through most of the week on a charge, in most cases. That leaves a limited number of cars that need overnight charging. One slow charger added facilitates multiple households. But IMO every parking spot should just have a slow charger right there. It'll cost something but the BEV subsidies are way most costly. Just ban new ICEV and imports and see what happens. People will convert. Or everyone will keep their old car, which in the short term is a huge saving on emissions even an overnight BEV mania can't fix.

[doc83]

And exactly London has this lamp post power outlet program I mentioned earlier. This is the way.

Let's not pretend that we need to charge EVERY day. For commuters with a PHEV, that may be the cars, but BEV's can probably make it through most of the week on a charge, in most cases. That leaves a limited number of cars that need overnight charging. One slow charger added facilitates multiple households. But IMO every parking spot should just have a slow charger right there. It'll cost something but the BEV subsidies are way most costly. Just ban new ICEV and imports and see what happens. People will convert. Or everyone will keep their old car, which in the short term is a huge saving on emissions even an overnight BEV mania can't fix.

 

    

[Requiem84]

I saw a new item recently where they covered a trip in the UK by someone who was an EV convert. Although, in theory, there should not have been any problems, in practice he found that charging points were either in-use, faulty or were incompatible with all of the many charging cables that he had. The end result was that, having been an EV convert, he decided that he was going to sell his EV and get a 'normal' car.

Another issue that is not always highlighted ... I'm not sure what it's like in other big cities, but in London a great number of people cannot park their car close to where they live. This means that they would not be able to charge the car overnight.

So in the UK, at least, there is a very very very big amount of work to be done to put in the infrastructure needed to have the majority of people switch to EV effectively, I'm not convinced that any political party has the desire to spend the sorts or money required. That means that they will be looking to the private sector to provide the infrastructure. This, in turn, means that it's going to be patchy and, no doubt, expensive for the consumer.

To be honest, that video item you saw sounds like ICE propaganda.

Charging ports incompatible with the cables he had??! Come on, that is all standardized stuff!

[azza200]

Would VW back in the 60's make a film nowadays called herbie today? I doubt it as some snowflake would get offended because the car is not being gender neutral enough they would cause an uproar about it & the car would have to be electric to keep everyone happy as well 

Edited by azza200, 25 November 2019 - 20:04.

[absinthedude]

"What problem with the electricity generation...we'll figure a way".

 

will we? I mean just how do you propose that we generate sufficient electricity not only to continue our existing use but to cover millions upon millions of EVs each needing 100+kW to get around. Especially if we don't want to use fossil fuels to generate that electricity (which I totally agree would be a bad idea and would defeat the purpose)? Go on, tell me in full detail...not "oh someone will figure it out". This isn't hoping. If the grid fails and we all have EVs....people can't get to work, to appointments, kids can't get to school, people can't get to doctors and hospitals, freakin' doctors can't get to hospitals...ambulances can't get to sick and injured people because either they're EVs or they can't weave their way through the jam of dead EVs. 

 

The street light thing is OK as far as it goes but remember they only deliver a couple of kW. And the network is not designed for each traffic light connection being used at full capacity. 

 

As for petrol stations closing or getting rid of petrol/diesel pumps...remember what I said about not falling into the trap of assuming your own bubble is repeated everywhere. That's simply not happening most places. 

 

Until a new propulsion system can effectively be made to work as well or better than current ICE cars, then the EVs will be inferior. And who wants an inferior product that costs more (once the subsidies are taken into account)? 

 

As for "how apart from range and charging times are EVs inferior?".....what planet are you from, and do you visit earth often? My 8 year old Skoda Octavia can get over 500 miles on one fill of petrol, which I can accomplish in a couple of minutes. And that car is nothing special....it's not uncommon at all and isn't new. There is no EV in the world that can do what this unremarkable mass market car can do. On many occasions my wife and I have done 450 miles in one trip with the boot full of camping equipment, roof box on and towing a trailer. Show me an EV that can do that....with boot/trunk capacity of 550 litres and the ability to tow without losing range. 

 

For the conferences that we organise again the car is stuffed full, would an EV get us where we need to be without worry about range and recharge time? No point arriving late, 300 people will be pissed off and wanting a refund. 

 

I do actually use the train for my regular job because I work in London. I can't get from my house to work, there is no viable public transport route. So my wife drives me to the station (zero buses from our end of town to the station at 7am and I don't fancy a 35 minute walk in winter thank you...and it's up hill so I can't bike)....take a train and then a bus....hardly convenient but it does work....when the damned train isn't buggered by overhead power line problems and power failures!

 

EVs do certainly have a place. For people who genuinely don't travel that far and just do their daily short commute and shopping and the school run...yeah, they're probably fine IF you have charging points available. What about when our friends in Wales hold a party, as they do four times a year. Various people drive there....could be done in an EV with 200-300 mile range so it's feasible....but are all four cars gonna charge from our friends' charging point (if they had one...the village they live in has ZERO charging points). How do we all charge up in order to leave and go home the next day? How do our friends, who are disabled and NEED a car, charge theirs? Are we to use the train and bus? 7 hours instead of 3-4 by car. 

 

We need to remember that our lifestyles depend on being able to drive ourselves from A to B. All this guff about "personal transportation going out of fashion" only counts in big cities and for people who don't want to visit friends or do business any distance away. Personally my world is bigger than that. Yes, I know plenty of Londoners who don't use a car but crucially they don't go places like Treherbert or Lizard. IF they venture out of London at all it is to go to a city with a direct train link such as Manchester. Some simply don't venture out of London. 

[Myrvold]

The reason why people have som much againts EV at least from what I have understood in Norway, is that the government spend so much money on subsidizing a product that is inferior to thire fossiled fueled rivals. Money that could be spent on other environment program that would benefit the whole popolation and not giving rich people in Oslo west a reason to buy an expensive Tesla. Because that is whats happening right now....

 

Norwegian, or just read it somewhere?

[Vielleicht]

"What problem with the electricity generation...we'll figure a way".

will we? I mean just how do you propose that we generate sufficient electricity not only to continue our existing use but to cover millions upon millions of EVs each needing 100+kW to get around. Especially if we don't want to use fossil fuels to generate that electricity (which I totally agree would be a bad idea and would defeat the purpose)? Go on, tell me in full detail...not "oh someone will figure it out".

I would do my absolute best if not for the fact that it would veer wildly off topic.

[pdac]

And exactly London has this lamp post power outlet program I mentioned earlier. This is the way.

Let's not pretend that we need to charge EVERY day. For commuters with a PHEV, that may be the cars, but BEV's can probably make it through most of the week on a charge, in most cases. That leaves a limited number of cars that need overnight charging. One slow charger added facilitates multiple households. But IMO every parking spot should just have a slow charger right there. It'll cost something but the BEV subsidies are way most costly. Just ban new ICEV and imports and see what happens. People will convert. Or everyone will keep their old car, which in the short term is a huge saving on emissions even an overnight BEV mania can't fix.

 

Two points about lamp post outlets ...

 

1. I live just outside of the London area (walk 200m and I'm there). At night, all of our lamp posts are turned off (saving energy and avoiding light pollution). I guess they could adjust that to ensure that power outlets would stay on, but that probably means double-wiring each one.

 

2. I'm not sure I would want to have my car tethered to a lamp post overnight, when I do not know what anyone is up to outside.

[pdac]

To be honest, that video item you saw sounds like ICE propaganda.

Charging ports incompatible with the cables he had??! Come on, that is all standardized stuff!

 

I don't know enough about it to say, but it did seem like there were several 'standards' and not all charging points supported all of them.

Edited by pdac, 25 November 2019 - 21:26.

[F1Lurker]

"What problem with the electricity generation...we'll figure a way".

 

will we? I mean just how do you propose that we generate sufficient electricity not only to continue our existing use but to cover millions upon millions of EVs each needing 100+kW to get around. Especially if we don't want to use fossil fuels to generate that electricity (which I totally agree would be a bad idea and would defeat the purpose)? Go on, tell me in full detail...not "oh someone will figure it out". This isn't hoping. If the grid fails and we all have EVs....people can't get to work, to appointments, kids can't get to school, people can't get to doctors and hospitals, freakin' doctors can't get to hospitals...ambulances can't get to sick and injured people because either they're EVs or they can't weave their way through the jam of dead EVs. 

 

The street light thing is OK as far as it goes but remember they only deliver a couple of kW. And the network is not designed for each traffic light connection being used at full capacity. 

 

As for petrol stations closing or getting rid of petrol/diesel pumps...remember what I said about not falling into the trap of assuming your own bubble is repeated everywhere. That's simply not happening most places. 

 

Until a new propulsion system can effectively be made to work as well or better than current ICE cars, then the EVs will be inferior. And who wants an inferior product that costs more (once the subsidies are taken into account)? 

 

As for "how apart from range and charging times are EVs inferior?".....what planet are you from, and do you visit earth often? My 8 year old Skoda Octavia can get over 500 miles on one fill of petrol, which I can accomplish in a couple of minutes. And that car is nothing special....it's not uncommon at all and isn't new. There is no EV in the world that can do what this unremarkable mass market car can do. On many occasions my wife and I have done 450 miles in one trip with the boot full of camping equipment, roof box on and towing a trailer. Show me an EV that can do that....with boot/trunk capacity of 550 litres and the ability to tow without losing range. 

 

For the conferences that we organise again the car is stuffed full, would an EV get us where we need to be without worry about range and recharge time? No point arriving late, 300 people will be pissed off and wanting a refund. 

 

I do actually use the train for my regular job because I work in London. I can't get from my house to work, there is no viable public transport route. So my wife drives me to the station (zero buses from our end of town to the station at 7am and I don't fancy a 35 minute walk in winter thank you...and it's up hill so I can't bike)....take a train and then a bus....hardly convenient but it does work....when the damned train isn't buggered by overhead power line problems and power failures!

 

EVs do certainly have a place. For people who genuinely don't travel that far and just do their daily short commute and shopping and the school run...yeah, they're probably fine IF you have charging points available. What about when our friends in Wales hold a party, as they do four times a year. Various people drive there....could be done in an EV with 200-300 mile range so it's feasible....but are all four cars gonna charge from our friends' charging point (if they had one...the village they live in has ZERO charging points). How do we all charge up in order to leave and go home the next day? How do our friends, who are disabled and NEED a car, charge theirs? Are we to use the train and bus? 7 hours instead of 3-4 by car. 

 

We need to remember that our lifestyles depend on being able to drive ourselves from A to B. All this guff about "personal transportation going out of fashion" only counts in big cities and for people who don't want to visit friends or do business any distance away. Personally my world is bigger than that. Yes, I know plenty of Londoners who don't use a car but crucially they don't go places like Treherbert or Lizard. IF they venture out of London at all it is to go to a city with a direct train link such as Manchester. Some simply don't venture out of London. 

I agree with much of this post.

 

I don't see how current electrical grids could handle millions of battery electric cars if ICEs go away. I'm not saying a transition could not happen—it could, just like to cars from horses and buggies, but the level of power generation infrastructure would be immense. In fact, I think a hydrogen distribution network for fuel cells would be more feasible in the short to medium term.

 

However, aside from the difficulties and timeline of shifting the entire vehicular transport system (or most of it) to electric powertrains, that would still not save a ICE powered F1 from manufacturers leaving. Already ICE's are seen as yesterdays polluting and emitting technologies, F1 should be a platform to showcase future tech. Which is why VW, Honda, Renault and Mercedes are sensitive to the need to transition away from internal combustion engines.

Edited by F1Lurker, 25 November 2019 - 21:53.

[Fatgadget]

Two points about lamp post outlets ...

 

1. I live just outside of the London area (walk 200m and I'm there). At night, all of our lamp posts are turned off (saving energy and avoiding light pollution). I guess they could adjust that to ensure that power outlets would stay on, but that probably means double-wiring each one.

 

2. I'm not sure I would want to have my car tethered to a lamp post overnight, when I do not know what anyone is up to outside.

Don't tether it at a lamp post then!

 

Are you saying you never park  your prized car in the middle of nowhere at times?

I also would imagine vandalising  a tethered anything these days stupidity personified.

 

 ..Your mindset is so set in the  last century pdac!

[Augurk]

"What problem with the electricity generation...we'll figure a way".

 

will we? I mean just how do you propose that we generate sufficient electricity not only to continue our existing use but to cover millions upon millions of EVs each needing 100+kW to get around. Especially if we don't want to use fossil fuels to generate that electricity (which I totally agree would be a bad idea and would defeat the purpose)? Go on, tell me in full detail...not "oh someone will figure it out". This isn't hoping. If the grid fails and we all have EVs....people can't get to work, to appointments, kids can't get to school, people can't get to doctors and hospitals, freakin' doctors can't get to hospitals...ambulances can't get to sick and injured people because either they're EVs or they can't weave their way through the jam of dead EVs. 

 

The street light thing is OK as far as it goes but remember they only deliver a couple of kW. And the network is not designed for each traffic light connection being used at full capacity. 

 

As for petrol stations closing or getting rid of petrol/diesel pumps...remember what I said about not falling into the trap of assuming your own bubble is repeated everywhere. That's simply not happening most places. 

 

Until a new propulsion system can effectively be made to work as well or better than current ICE cars, then the EVs will be inferior. And who wants an inferior product that costs more (once the subsidies are taken into account)? 

 

As for "how apart from range and charging times are EVs inferior?".....what planet are you from, and do you visit earth often? My 8 year old Skoda Octavia can get over 500 miles on one fill of petrol, which I can accomplish in a couple of minutes. And that car is nothing special....it's not uncommon at all and isn't new. There is no EV in the world that can do what this unremarkable mass market car can do. On many occasions my wife and I have done 450 miles in one trip with the boot full of camping equipment, roof box on and towing a trailer. Show me an EV that can do that....with boot/trunk capacity of 550 litres and the ability to tow without losing range. 

 

For the conferences that we organise again the car is stuffed full, would an EV get us where we need to be without worry about range and recharge time? No point arriving late, 300 people will be pissed off and wanting a refund. 

 

I do actually use the train for my regular job because I work in London. I can't get from my house to work, there is no viable public transport route. So my wife drives me to the station (zero buses from our end of town to the station at 7am and I don't fancy a 35 minute walk in winter thank you...and it's up hill so I can't bike)....take a train and then a bus....hardly convenient but it does work....when the damned train isn't buggered by overhead power line problems and power failures!

 

EVs do certainly have a place. For people who genuinely don't travel that far and just do their daily short commute and shopping and the school run...yeah, they're probably fine IF you have charging points available. What about when our friends in Wales hold a party, as they do four times a year. Various people drive there....could be done in an EV with 200-300 mile range so it's feasible....but are all four cars gonna charge from our friends' charging point (if they had one...the village they live in has ZERO charging points). How do we all charge up in order to leave and go home the next day? How do our friends, who are disabled and NEED a car, charge theirs? Are we to use the train and bus? 7 hours instead of 3-4 by car. 

 

We need to remember that our lifestyles depend on being able to drive ourselves from A to B. All this guff about "personal transportation going out of fashion" only counts in big cities and for people who don't want to visit friends or do business any distance away. Personally my world is bigger than that. Yes, I know plenty of Londoners who don't use a car but crucially they don't go places like Treherbert or Lizard. IF they venture out of London at all it is to go to a city with a direct train link such as Manchester. Some simply don't venture out of London. 

You do get very creative in posing arguments against EVs. I'll give you that. 

Power outages? Good point. Though no massive havoc would occur the first day as alot of cars will still have battery in them. Then again I suppose this would also affect electric trains, so maybe there would be issues. But then: fuel pumps also run on electricity, so if it's more than a few days even petrol cars would suffer. Besides that I think the future of the electric grid is one with smaller hub-sized local storage facilities (per neighbourhood or town) that store locally generated solar  power and redistribute it on the local net. That way peaks will be dealt with more easily and there will always be some electricity on the local net. Tests like these are already being performed. 

 

And assuming you don't wake up in the morning and decide to have a conference that day I don't see how you can not plan ahead your trip with the charging stops you need. Towing a large haul does cost a lot of range, I agree. You'd need to charge more. This is one thing EVs have room for improvement in still. 

 

And if you're still claiming in this day and age that electric cars are only for people who do short trips to the supermarket and the kid's school and back, you're making yourself rather ridiculous. The current key demographic that have bought into EV are business owners, consultants etc who are on the move constantly and do longer trips as well. 

 

Look - if you want to be against EVs you can find arguments against it. If you don't care about ruining our home planet - well, that's a real pity as we need everyone to chip in and do their part. I might be from another planet, so maybe I don't care. But I find it very funny that people claim EVs are not going to be for the general public and then come with examples of trips that the general public hardly (if ever) do. With the amount of miles driven each day on average, even the smallest EV battery would suffice.

[Augurk]

Two points about lamp post outlets ...

 

1. I live just outside of the London area (walk 200m and I'm there). At night, all of our lamp posts are turned off (saving energy and avoiding light pollution). I guess they could adjust that to ensure that power outlets would stay on, but that probably means double-wiring each one.

 

2. I'm not sure I would want to have my car tethered to a lamp post overnight, when I do not know what anyone is up to outside.

 

I don't get 2. Unless you would only keep your car parked in a garage overnight and not out on the streets. I don't see the link with charging on a lamp post. If that's your position it has no relation at all with EVs, but with your perception of the outside world. And if you leave it inside anyway you might as well hook it up to an outlet. 

[DS27]

I drive up and down the UK on a regular basis, and drove 500+ miles last night to get to work for this morning. Electric vehicles will work for some, but it will be many many years before they are close to working for people in my position. People who think not many do long trips should look outside their own little bubble.

 

My old A6 I use as a daily driver (and now probably worth less than 5K) that has served me faithfully for almost a decade once towed a race car from Kent to Knockhill without filling up with fuel - is there any 100K plus EV even close to doing that in the next decade?

 

Also, the the constant motorway closures going on in todays UK, I look forward to the stranded EV's making daily life more challenging. It's all fine, you have a range of 30 miles and there is a garage 20 miles up the M6. Oh wait the road ahead is now gridlocked and you will be inching forward in a 10-mile tail-back for the next 1 hour - what does that do to your range (especially if you need the A/C  or heating) This is not an out there scenario; I almost don't do a long journey where there are not serious hold-ups or road closures and lengthy diversions at one or more places on the trip.

Edited by DS27, 25 November 2019 - 22:38.

[Ben1445]

Where on Earth has this sudden talk of ‘stranded EVs’ come from?

Completely invented scaremongering.

[Clatter]

You do get very creative in posing arguments against EVs. I'll give you that. 

Power outages? Good point. Though no massive havoc would occur the first day as alot of cars will still have battery in them. Then again I suppose this would also affect electric trains, so maybe there would be issues. But then: fuel pumps also run on electricity, so if it's more than a few days even petrol cars would suffer. Besides that I think the future of the electric grid is one with smaller hub-sized local storage facilities (per neighbourhood or town) that store locally generated solar  power and redistribute it on the local net. That way peaks will be dealt with more easily and there will always be some electricity on the local net. Tests like these are already being performed. 

 

And assuming you don't wake up in the morning and decide to have a conference that day I don't see how you can not plan ahead your trip with the charging stops you need. Towing a large haul does cost a lot of range, I agree. You'd need to charge more. This is one thing EVs have room for improvement in still. 

 

And if you're still claiming in this day and age that electric cars are only for people who do short trips to the supermarket and the kid's school and back, you're making yourself rather ridiculous. The current key demographic that have bought into EV are business owners, consultants etc who are on the move constantly and do longer trips as well. 

 

Look - if you want to be against EVs you can find arguments against it. If you don't care about ruining our home planet - well, that's a real pity as we need everyone to chip in and do their part. I might be from another planet, so maybe I don't care. But I find it very funny that people claim EVs are not going to be for the general public and then come with examples of trips that the general public hardly (if ever) do. With the amount of miles driven each day on average, even the smallest EV battery would suffice.

 

I've seen plenty of stranded cars in traffic jams, mainly caused by overheating, but they can just as easily run out of fuel as well. If they are getting low then they would need to take the same solution as an EV driver would, turn everything off.

[pdac]

I don't get 2. Unless you would only keep your car parked in a garage overnight and not out on the streets. I don't see the link with charging on a lamp post. If that's your position it has no relation at all with EVs, but with your perception of the outside world. And if you leave it inside anyway you might as well hook it up to an outlet. 

 

I know where I grew up and what happens there now.

[pdac]

Where on Earth has this sudden talk of ‘stranded EVs’ come from?

Completely invented scaremongering.

 

Have you never run out of petrol somewhere and had to walk with your can to the nearest service station?

[DS27]

Have you never run out of petrol somewhere and had to walk with your can to the nearest service station?

 

 

I know you didn't quote me, but personally, I have run out twice in my 50 years. First time I had a long walk - second time I had a 5L can in the boot so no walk! 

[PayasYouRace]

Ok. Well I think we can gather from the approximately 10% of posts in this topic that VW won't exactly be missed in the world of fuel burning motorsport, as we can barely think of what they compete in, let alone what effect their electrification will have on the racing world.

 

The rest of the discussion, interesting as it is, should go elsewhere. Might I suggest the appropriately named and very undersubcribed "The EV Thread" over at the Technical Forum, which would be a much better place for this.

 

https://forums.autos...-the-ev-thread/