296 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Autosport have picked up a story that I admit I had completely missed over the summer, that as part of Zandvoort's renovations for 2020 the circuit is going to add a high-banked corner leading onto the main straight. The angle of the banking will be 18 degrees, which is similar to what they have at scary American oval Michigan International Speedway. The turn will be a bit tighter, of course. It's also significantly steeper than other banked corners F1 has used in recent years at Indianapolis and Mexico City, which again makes this Super Newsworthy.

Banked turn not pictured here because, er, it's not been built yet. However what I can tell you is that it's going to be in that long turn before the pit straight with the nice copse of trees on the inside.

 

Max Verstappen, who is categorically not getting his excuses in early, says that everyone will have to run really high tyre pressures. But it might also improve overtaking opportunities onto the straight.

 

This news has already being discussed in the 2020 Dutch GP thread, but I thought this is remarkable enough news to have its own thread. What do you think? Pointless gimmick or welcome lateral (heh) thinking? Any other tracks in need of some sweet, sweet tilted road? And please share all the stories and insights you have of banked corners that have been shoehorned into road courses.

[jonpollak]

Oooh... last corner drama installation!!!!
I’m all ‘Hoofddorrudered’ up for that
Jp

[PayasYouRace]

Good idea. I’ll just provide some quotes of myself in the other thread to provide some context to the intended banking:

 

If anyone needs help imagining it, 18 degree banking looks like this:

 

 

 

Watching film footage from 1970, it was never particularly steep.

 

 

Go to 0:50 or so and you can see the turn (with the dome in the background for reference). You can see that it's fairly flat.

 

Going to the 1980s refurbishment, again, not particularly steep.

 

 

 

Maybe 5 degrees? Doesn't look steeper than Indy.

[ElectricBoogie]

Does this make it a full speed section from the exit of the last left hander? What exit speed to expect onto the straight? Nice high top speed with one or two corners less, less wing to allow for this and a high entry speed onto the short straight.

[maximilian]

Yet another way F1 has started to copy IndyCar, it seems 

[404KF2]

Nice!  Wish Monza'd do the same.

[Arska]

Based on that image, if a car goes spinning near the end of the corner, there's not much room before crashing. Speed will be pretty high with a banked corner in place.

[ToniF1]

You just know Grosjean will crash there...

[Requiem84]

Kudos to Zandvoort for doing something new!!

They will enter that banked corner with 200km/h plus I think. I guess the banking doesnt rub that much speed, so exit onto the straight should be around 300 (?!).

Then there still is 600 metres of straight or so. Speeds will be quite high.

How will they handle this stuff from a safety pov? Two cars going side by side through the banked corner, one with DRS open. What if they touch and fly over the banking?

It sounds very exciting, but are the FIA closing an eye for safety here?

[TauriJ]

Catch fencing obviously

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think a car has flown over the wall at any banked oval since the 1960s, if that. We're quite good at keeping cars where they should be.

 

I would understand concerns about when a car hits that catch fencing. We're still not quite there yet, and guys like Kenny Brack, Dan Wheldon and Robert Wickens have all suffered to some extend from that kind of accident.

[Sterzo]

Yet another way F1 has started to copy IndyCar, it seems 

Brooklands, surely?

[Jvr]

Hugenholz apparently will also be banked so not one but two highly banked corners.

Edited by Jvr, 23 November 2019 - 10:19.

[ANF]

Obviously, the reason for turning the last corner(s) into a banked corner with a SAFER barrier is the current lack of run-off area in the last corner.

[Klauzer]

This circuit looks tailor made for Red Bull, literally (good downforce required). Also... 

 

 

Edited by Klauzer, 23 November 2019 - 10:29.

[TecnoRacing]

I was under the impression that all FIA grade 1 circuits regs. had strict limits on the amount of positive camber that was allowable in turns. I would have thought that this applied not only to new constructed circuits, but newly revised or reconstructed corners as well.

Anyone know the what gives?

[Risil]

Hugenholz apparently will also be banked so not one but two highly banked corners.

 

I was under the impression that Hugenholz was already slightly banked (it was a nice corner to drive in Grand Prix Legends, anyway) but perhaps I'm confusing it with Tarzan, the first corner.

[FPV GTHO]

What's the banking at Shanghai? Obviously that was allowed.

[Jvr]

I was under the impression that Hugenholz was already slightly banked (it was a nice corner to drive in Grand Prix Legends, anyway) but perhaps I'm confusing it with Tarzan, the first corner.

Seems they will modify it steeper.

 

"The third corner of the track will be banked as well for the F1 race. It will be made parabolic, so that two cars can get through the corner next to each other and more importantly at the same speed.

"The banking will vary between 8 percent and 18 percent for that purpose."

https://www.espn.com...ep-indianapolis

[PayasYouRace]

Seems they will modify it steeper.

 

"The third corner of the track will be banked as well for the F1 race. It will be made parabolic, so that two cars can get through the corner next to each other and more importantly at the same speed.

"The banking will vary between 8 percent and 18 percent for that purpose."

https://www.espn.com...ep-indianapolis

 

I doubt they'll get that effect given the layout leading up to that hairpin. Anyway, that's between 4.5 and 10 degrees.

[Jvr]

I doubt they'll get that effect given the layout leading up to that hairpin. Anyway, that's between 4.5 and 10 degrees.

I guess the only way is to wait and see.

However, I am curious how the "parabolic" banking profile is defined: is it changing parabolically along the flow of the track keeping the banking angle constant at each part of the track getting the steepest but constant angle at the apex or is the corner's banking profile parabolically concave.

Edited by Jvr, 23 November 2019 - 11:35.

[PayasYouRace]

I guess the only way is to wait and see.

However, I am curious how the "parabolic" banking profile is defined: is it changing along the flow of the track keeping the banking angle constant at each part of the track getting the steepest but constant angle at the apex or is the corner's banking profile concave.

It’ll be steeper on the outside, so a concave shape. A few American ovals such as Las Vegas and Homestead-Miami have a similar thing. It makes the outside line faster than it normally would be.

[Clatter]

I was under the impression that all FIA grade 1 circuits regs. had strict limits on the amount of positive camber that was allowable in turns. I would have thought that this applied not only to new constructed circuits, but newly revised or reconstructed corners as well.

Anyone know the what gives?

 

It appears that the FIA are ignoring their rule book. I am assuming that the circuit owners have already agreed these changes with the FIA. Would be funny if they made the changes and were then refused the permit.

[B Squared]

And please share all the stories and insights you have of banked corners that have been shoehorned into road courses.

Meadowdale Raceway outside the Chicago area: "Called the Mecca of Auto Racing in the Midwest, this track featured the longest straight-away in the world as well as the steepest turn in the world - the 45 degree “Monza wall!”

https://www.aleopubl...dowdale-raceway

[Jvr]

It’ll be steeper on the outside, so a concave shape. A few American ovals such as Las Vegas and Homestead-Miami have a similar thing. It makes the outside line faster than it normally would be.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

That sounds interesting that there would be two prominent but very different style of banked corners in one F1 track.

[PayasYouRace]

Meadowdale Raceway outside the Chicago area: "Called the Mecca of Auto Racing in the Midwest, this track featured the longest straight-away in the world as well as the steepest turn in the world - the 45 degree “Monza wall!”

https://www.aleopubl...dowdale-raceway

Looks like an amazing track, though the banking was clearly part of an oval.

[SonGoku]

Carey wants this race and the 300.000 guaranteed visitors. Can't imagine them doing this without FIA permission, so my guess is that rules aren't that important now.

[Risil]

Looks to me from that aerial photo that half the oval had fallen into disuse, or perhaps the land was prepared but it was never built? Maybe not entirely unlike the situation in the early years of Fuji Speedway, which had one big oval-style turn but they never got around to building the others...

[LucaP]

I have to admit, these developments are pretty exciting.

F1 is likely to be awful there anyway, but it will be such a cool addition for Gt and Touring car series

[PiperPa42]

Based on that image, if a car goes spinning near the end of the corner, there's not much room before crashing. Speed will be pretty high with a banked corner in place.

You don’t want runoff on the outside on a corner with 18 degrees of banking.

[Atreiu]

I’m in a just do it state of mind. We’ll see after the race if it has any actual positive impact to the GP itself. I hope it does for no other reason than the event to be a success.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m definitely excited to see it in action. In comparison I couldn’t give a toss about the generic street track in Hanoi.

[cpbell]

Catch fencing obviously

Indeed, but, the thing is, you wouldn't want to fly into that at that sort of speed.

[Requiem84]

How much G will they pull through such a corner in an F1 car?

Im assuming the radius will be tighter than most oval tracks.

I recall an incident few years ago where Indycar drivers got dizzy on a certain track.

[Risil]

Carey wants this race and the 300.000 guaranteed visitors. Can't imagine them doing this without FIA permission, so my guess is that rules aren't that important now.

After the Baku circuit got the green light I think it's been clear that the FIA only selectively enforce their guidelines for track design.

I've never found it particularly clear what all the FIA's circuit rules were for, and what status they had, anyway.

[Risil]

How much G will they pull through such a corner in an F1 car?

Im assuming the radius will be tighter than most oval tracks.

I recall an incident few years ago where Indycar drivers got dizzy on a certain track.

That was Texas Motor Speedway. Those bends are steeper and presumably faster than Zandvoort's will be, and drivers will only be in the turn for a few seconds every minute instead of for half the lap.

F1 cars in high downforce trim don't travel as fast as CART-spec Indycars did in 2001 either. The fastest cars in practice were heading into the turns at 239mph. I'm not intimately familiar with the Zandvoort layout (post Grand Prix Legends anyway) but I'd be surprised if they're heading into the banked corner even at modern Indycar speeds.

[renzmann]

I think it would be a glorious thing. Do it, Zandvoort!

 

It will look amazing, allows for a reasonable chance of overtaking and I think putting the tyres under some serious stress is a good thing.

[Requiem84]

That was Texas Motor Speedway. Those bends are steeper and presumably faster than Zandvoort's will be, and drivers will only be in the turn for a few seconds every minute instead of for half the lap.

F1 cars in high downforce trim don't travel as fast as CART-spec Indycars did in 2001 either. The fastest cars in practice were heading into the turns at 239mph. I'm not intimately familiar with the Zandvoort layout (post Grand Prix Legends anyway) but I'd be surprised if they're heading into the banked corner even at modern Indycar speeds.

Good info, thanks.

What speeds were they pulling at Texas for a longer period of time?

Obviously the speeds will be slower, but if the radius of the corner is tighter, the G’s will be higher.

The last corner at Zandvoort now is already flat in an F1 car, but in the new layout they start accelerating a lot earlier and will enter the corner much faster.

The last banked corner could be a 300 km/h corner for about 5-6 seconds, as it will be very long. It will be brutal (and fun!).

[Risil]

Average speeds in practice for Texas were around the 235mph (380km/h) mark. Not sure what the speeds would've been in the corners but given how long the turns are at Texas, somewhere between 220-230?

 

I agree that what we're missing from this analysis is the radius of the new Zandvoort turn. I'm not sure if that's known yet, but perhaps some enterprising soul could figure it out from photographs.

 

Do we know whether it'll be the whole 200 degrees of the final corner that'll be banked in this way or only the second half of it? In either case the more I look at the layout the more I think they'll be accelerating through it (like the Parabolica at Estoril), which will also make the corner speeds quite a bit lower than they would be in an oval.

[Requiem84]

Average speeds in practice for Texas were around the 235mph (380km/h) mark. Not sure what the speeds would've been in the corners but given how long the turns are at Texas, somewhere between 220-230?

I agree that what we're missing from this analysis is the radius of the new Zandvoort turn. I'm not sure if that's known yet, but perhaps some enterprising soul could figure it out from photographs.

Do we know whether it'll be the whole 200 degrees of the final corner that'll be banked in this way or only the second half of it? In either case the more I look at the layout the more I think they'll be accelerating through it (like the Parabolica at Estoril), which will also make the corner speeds quite a bit lower than they would be in an oval.

Afaik the whole final AND corner before that will become 1 banked corner.

Meaning that as of the Audi S (the chicane), it should be full throttle until T1. Effictively it will be a straight of (just guessing) more than 1 km.

[PayasYouRace]

The problem at Texas was that there was no rest for the drivers. It was the high G force for more than half of a 22 second lap, with no rest before the next lap, and every turn approached at well over 200 mph.

 

At Zandvoort, the approach to the last corner will be from the slow preceding chicane. It’ll be over in a few seconds and then there will be the rest of the lap for the body to recover. It won’t be a problem for the drivers.

[Requiem84]

I think you are right.

It could still become the corner with longest sustained high g forces, a bit like the fantastic triple apex corner in Turkey.

[Pete_f1]

How could such a corner be deemed safe??

[PayasYouRace]

How could such a corner be deemed safe??

 

It'll be deemed safe as the combination of entry speed, apex speed, track width, banking angle, barrier construction and catch fencing height (to name some of the more obvious parameters) will all almost certainly fall well within safe limits, and are not going to be anything more dramatic that what can be seen on at least half a dozen ovals in the USA.

[Requiem84]

It'll be deemed safe as the combination of entry speed, apex speed, track width, banking angle, barrier construction and catch fencing height (to name some of the more obvious parameters) will all almost certainly fall well within safe limits, and are not going to be anything more dramatic that what can be seen on at least half a dozen ovals in the USA.

But that’s full on ovals, with cars purposely built for ovals and exclusively set-up for ovals..

[PayasYouRace]

But that’s full on ovals, with cars purposely built for ovals and exclusively set-up for ovals..

 

So here were talking about a single corner, with cars designed with knowledge of that corner and set up for for that circuit. We're not talking about something magical that has never been done before.

[Requiem84]

So here were talking about a single corner, with cars designed with knowledge of that corner and set up for for that circuit. We're not talking about something magical that has never been done before.

Indy 2005 agrees with you.

[PayasYouRace]

Indy 2005 agrees with you.

 

Indy 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 actually do agree with me. I posted in the other thread that Zandvoort won't have the very specific circumstances that lead to the events of 2005. i.e the track being ground down prior to the event and the tyre war leading to one manufacturer not taking any safe prime tyres to the race.

[Requiem84]

Indy 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 actually do agree with me. I posted in the other thread that Zandvoort won't have the very specific circumstances that lead to the events of 2005. i.e the track being ground down prior to the event and the tyre war leading to one manufacturer not taking any safe prime tyres to the race.

It is something new for F1 since a long time. It is something new for Pirelli. It is new for these types of cars.

I expect it will be OK, but I dont think it should be underestimated. Saying it is OK cause Indycars have been doing it for years is totally irrelevant.

[PayasYouRace]

It is something new for F1 since a long time. It is something new for Pirelli. It is new for these types of cars.

I expect it will be OK, but I dont think it should be underestimated. Saying it is OK cause Indycars have been doing it for years is totally irrelevant.

The only people underestimating it are those on here who are worried.