80 replies to this topic

[PlatenGlass]

Nothing personal, but I'll stick with the journos' opinions.

Saves having to think for yourself I suppose.

[Astandahl]

I thought he was being used a political tool whilst the Michael/Kimi thing played out. 

Still one of the worst Ferrari decision in recent history.

[Spillage]

Even if he was competitive I'd have been amazed if he was competitive enough to win the title. Just to be average would have been a remarkable achievement after switching from two wheels to four.

[Requiem84]

In 2009 Badoer jumped in the car in Valencia and Spa to replace Massa. 

 

He was 1,5 seconds of the guy in front of him. 

 

I think Valentino Rossi would have done a bit better tbh! And that would also be what I would expect from Rossi had he driven F1: between 0,5 - 0,7 from the really fast guys. 

 

Eventually he could be doing what Albon is now to Verstappen. 

 

So, no embarrassment, but never good enough to be at the very top.

[Nathan]

First of all 1 sec is huge!

Secondly from the same article "F2004 fitted with a V10 engine limited to reproduce the conditions set out in this year's regulations" which means that his car was significantly different to the V8 powered 2006 spec machines driven by the majority of drivers present."

It was the same engine used by Toro Rosso in 2006.

[PayasYouRace]

It was the same engine used by Toro Rosso in 2006.

Not quite. Toro Rosso had a Cosworth.

[ElectricBoogie]

In 2009 Badoer jumped in the car in Valencia and Spa to replace Massa. 

 

He was 1,5 seconds of the guy in front of him. 

 

I think Valentino Rossi would have done a bit better tbh! And that would also be what I would expect from Rossi had he driven F1: between 0,5 - 0,7 from the really fast guys. 

 

Eventually he could be doing what Albon is now to Verstappen. 

 

So, no embarrassment, but never good enough to be at the very top.

And how many car-focused drivers might achieve the same, given the chance?
How many of the Indycar field would slot into such pace after some testing and racing?
WOC?
WRC?
DTM?

Super Formula?
F2? - Albon was 3rd
F3 - we've seen better drivers right out of F3.
FE - most there seem to be capable ex-F1 drivers.

So Ferrari would by-pass 100s of better drivers to field Rossi for some promo?

 

[Beri]

And how many car-focused drivers might achieve the same, given the chance?
How many of the Indycar field would slot into such pace after some testing and racing?
WOC?
WRC?
DTM?
Super Formula?
F2? - Albon was 3rd
F3 - we've seen better drivers right out of F3.
FE - most there seem to be capable ex-F1 drivers.

So Ferrari would by-pass 100s of better drivers to field Rossi for some promo?

He's Italian and was very popular already then. It would have been a good choice. And back then there were GP2 and the Renault World Series that were the active feeder series of most new drivers. And aside from Hamilton, Kubica and Vettel, not many drivers got their break in F1 and stuck around in that 2006 to 2008 period. So Rossi would have been a good pick by Ferrari. Certainly since they didn't had their Talent programme up and running back then.

[KWSN - DSM]

I think it was a PR move, then he was much faster than they thought he would be, the car being powered and set up differently with the other cars being tested none-withstanding... So they did seriously think about this after he showed as much speed as he did. However Badoer and Fisichella not really being able to race the Ferrari while Massa was out, showed how difficult it is, and no matter how good Rossi was, he would not have matched them.

 

And the video... gotta love the Italians... all of them smoking.

 

[Myrvold]

In 2009 Badoer jumped in the car in Valencia and Spa to replace Massa. 
 
He was 1,5 seconds of the guy in front of him. 
 
I think Valentino Rossi would have done a bit better tbh! And that would also be what I would expect from Rossi had he driven F1: between 0,5 - 0,7 from the really fast guys. 
 
Eventually he could be doing what Albon is now to Verstappen. 
 
So, no embarrassment, but never good enough to be at the very top.

Not if he had jumped in the 09 Ferrari. Just like Badoer wouldn't done his 09-style if he jumped in to race in 06.

[Risil]

Saves having to think for yourself I suppose.

 

Well I tried calling Stefano Domenicali at his home but he didn't pick up.

[Sterzo]

Interesting discussions on whether Rossi would have been good enough, but actually they're not relevant. That's what the tests were for: to discover whether he showed the necessary promise (however likely or unlikely); and to find out if he would have the commitment. It was worth a punt. Serious, in other words.

[PlatenGlass]

Well I tried calling Stefano Domenicali at his home but he didn't pick up.

Very funny, but I don't see how he would have a definitive answer to Rossi's MotoGP performance questions in 2006.

[ehagar]

You don't if you think a moto rider can successfully switch to F1. It;s like saying that Loeb could switch to MotoGP if he wanted or F1. Absurd.
Reminds me of Usain Bolt who wanted to play professional football (striker). Fary tailes.

Funny that... Rossi is actually pretty handy in a Rally car.

[RPM40]

Why not stick to the facts?

It was an official group test with official timing:


Granted, he was driving a detuned V10 whereas the regular Ferrari drivers were driving the new V8.

Wasn’t he on slicks vs grooved tyres?

[pRy]

Rossi says the offer was there. They'd place him in a smaller team and then promote him to the Ferrari seat if his pace was as promising as it looked in testing. Sounds like it was his call to turn it down and remain in Moto GP.

 

[Peat]

^that vid popped up in my feed yesterday. The algorithm provides. 

Glad he didn't tbh. I just don't think whatever talent he has could have made up for not having a decade of open-wheel car experience. He might have been capable of the odd decent lap, but I think over a season he would have looked disappointingly mediocre.

Look forward to seeing him GT's and eventually IMSA. 

[juicy sushi]

At the time, F1 needed him a lot more than he needed F1.

 

Everyone was upset at the dull races, the lack of charisma, and the tedium.  And just across the way was the most charismatic guy in motorsports since Senna, and unlike Senna, generally more upbeat.  And he was Italian, so the possibility of having an Italian superstar in a Ferrari was on the table.  Max and Bernie couldn't fix F1, but this was a hell of a band-aid requiring no effort from them.  

 

But if he walked away because he didn't feel it was right for him, it was definitely the right choice.  The Valentino retirement party in sports cars will be fun, although given his really bad experiences with endurance racing in the past, it is interesting that he is dipping his toes in at that end again, rather than sprint races.

[RA2]

With of marc marquez injuries, probably he should try his hand at F2

[pacificquay]

Revisionist history, I think.

 

There was never any serious chance of by the late 2000s someone with no car racing background at all being successful in F1.

 

It’s a nice story though.

[absinthedude]

At the time I very much had the impression it was serious, but it was a "now or never" situation. He needed to commit for the upcoming season...bed in for a season at least before he could reach his potential...and he already wasn't young. It was realistically his one and only chance....and he decided, quite fairly, that he still had a few years at the very top on bikes...so didn't take the risk of switching. 

[Singularity]

Revisionist history, I think.

 

There was never any serious chance of by the late 2000s someone with no car racing background at all being successful in F1.

 

It’s a nice story though.

 

Thing is that what makes a driver/rider fast has not much to do with the vehicle itself. Someone who is fast in a car will be fast on a bike and vice versa, because regardless of what you vehicle you are on, or in, it boild down to three things:

1. Feeling for the racing line 
2. Feeling for when to brake
3. Feeling for when to accelerate

Regardless of vehicle, an excellent driver/rider will excel in #2&3, using their skill and feeling to optimize the when.

Then there is another point, less important in outright speed, that is important for a racer.

4. Vehicle control

 

This is where the transition from one vehicle to another comes into play. When everything runs perfectly, you hit your marks etcetera, you don't need much vehicle control. But nothing ever runs perfectly all the time. A motorcycle rider has a much more narrow limit. If they get understeer, the margin between "oooh" and "AAAAIIIIAAOOOOO" is ridiculously small, so small that nobody want to visit it. Oversteer has bigger margins but there's usually more pain at the end of it.

What I am trying to say here? Well, mostly that the big difference between a bike and a car racer is how comfortable they are to handle things when they cross the limit. A car racer does it often while the biker does it rarely. 

I have no doubt that Rossi would have been able to match the best over a single lap, but in races he would not be comfortable to be close enough to the limit. For that, he would have needed a year or two. He did not have a year or two.

It was not a PR stunt though. Rossi wanted it, Ferrari wanted it. Ecclestone wanted it.

[Anderis]

And in 2019 we had a former Ski Jumper winning the Vuelta España and coming second in the Giro d’Italia.

But it's not like he stopped ski jumping one year and then won big cycling races the next year.

 

He gave up ski jumping in 2012 and started training cycling the same year, started getting results in small races around 2014, got a contract at the highest level in 2016 and didn't win a first World Tour race until 2018.

 

so the equivalent for Rossi would've been, if he had decided to make a switch in 2006- to go to something like Formula Renault 2.0, only start getting podiums and wins at that level around 2008, go to F3 in 2009 and get his first F1 contract in 2010 but mostly learning in his first year there and only started showing Ferrari deserving performances around 2012.

I guess having this much patience wasn't on the table.

 

Curiously, road cycling is one of the sports where people with background from different sports succeed a lot. We have a former ski jumper Roglic, a former middle distane-runner Michael Woods, a former soccer player Remco Evenepoel who are all top riders with results in big races but in recent years we've also got Anton Palzer, who switched from ski mountaineering and even Simon Carr who's had a past in karting. And that's not mentioning dozens of riders who've made very successful transitions from track cycling or cyclo-cross (obviously not that shocking, but still in soccer you don't suddenly have 20% of all top players being former beach soccer players or something like that). 

[Sterzo]

What I am trying to say here? Well, mostly that the big difference between a bike and a car racer is how comfortable they are to handle things when they cross the limit. A car racer does it often while the biker does it rarely.

I agree with you, but a Señor Marquez might beg to differ.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Probably a seat with Sauber initially? Although they'd gone all BMW by 06.

 

RedBull were running Ferrari engines. Imagine he'd gone there for a couple of years and then found himself in the RedBull-dominated era!

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 27 January 2022 - 14:16.

[Singularity]

I agree with you, but a Señor Marquez might beg to differ.

Well, while Marc has an outstanding bike-control, his "understeer" moments are much more rare than Verstappens. But they are also way more spectacular  
 

[Risil]

It's pretty much impossible to predict, given that no one has tried it for a very long time. Rossi was still pretty young when he was looking at the F1 switch. Presumably schedules wouldn't have permitted doing what John Surtees did, which was racing in junior formulae while still winning motorcycling world championships.

 

If Rossi had stuck with Honda and somehow convinced them to let him do F3 and/or F3000 in 2002-2004, I think he'd have had a great shot at being one of the top guys in F1. But jumping straight to F1 with just the experience of some Ferrari test sessions defies logic.

[Nathan]

I always felt it was serious for Rossi, but publicity for Fiat, Ferrari and Marlboro. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

At the time, F1 needed him a lot more than he needed F1.

 

Everyone was upset at the dull races, the lack of charisma, and the tedium.  

 

Things Rossi would have done nothing to fix. People had this crazy idea that mid 00s MotoGP Rossi performances would suddenly happen in F1. Even if had a front running car it wouldn't have been like the Gibernau/Biaggi antics. 

 

You had Montoya and Alonso and later Hamilton. Rossi wasn't going to make it any more exciting than they did. He'd still be handicapped by the nature of the cars and the racing. 

 

And that's before we get into the massive culture clash. Rossi thinks he had a lot of press and sponsor work in MotoGP, imagine F1. Nevermind with Ferrari. He'd have packed it in after year one just through sheer annoyance 

[juicy sushi]

Things Rossi would have done nothing to fix. People had this crazy idea that mid 00s MotoGP Rossi performances would suddenly happen in F1. Even if had a front running car it wouldn't have been like the Gibernau/Biaggi antics. 

 

You had Montoya and Alonso and later Hamilton. Rossi wasn't going to make it any more exciting than they did. He'd still be handicapped by the nature of the cars and the racing. 

 

And that's before we get into the massive culture clash. Rossi thinks he had a lot of press and sponsor work in MotoGP, imagine F1. Nevermind with Ferrari. He'd have packed it in after year one just through sheer annoyance 

Quite possibly.  But the press conference where he laid out how annoyed he was at the people running F1, and what they could do to their mothers, would've easily been the most entertainment F1 provided in the whole of the 2000s.

[BRG]

Curiously, road cycling is one of the sports where people with background from different sports succeed a lot. We have a former ski jumper Roglic, a former middle distane-runner Michael Woods, a former soccer player Remco Evenepoel who are all top riders with results in big races but in recent years we've also got Anton Palzer, who switched from ski mountaineering and even Simon Carr who's had a past in karting.

 

The fact that cycling is an important part of many sports persons training regime may help here.  Cycling is comparatively low impact on joints etc and is great for cardio-vascular training.  If you are already cycling many miles a week to train as a table tennis player or whatever, the transition isn't so extreme!  Hence Mansell, Prost and Alonso are keen amateur cycle racers who might have moved over had circumstances been different.