87 replies to this topic

[ANF]

"French Grand Prix organisers are considering making major track layout revisions to Paul Ricard in a bid to make it better for Formula 1 racing, Motorsport.com has learned."
https://www.motorspo...ullier/4606108/

Basically, the FIA and FOM have come up with some ideas on how to improve the circuit, and the organisers are now considering
• straightening the first section of the track to keep cars closer together
• tightening the chicane on the Mistral Straight
• adding a third DRS zone [before Signes? really? that will never work]

Below: 2019 circuit map (Signes = T10, Beausset = T11):

[Risil]

Could they do something to make the track less unpleasant to look at on TV? Those stripy run off areas are the worst.

 

But layout-wise I'm sure bypassing Turn 4 and making a more sweeping 180 degree corner leading onto the Mistral straight would help.

[JeePee]

Just remove the Mistral chicane! You'll get a unique circuit in return, with a much more challenging Signes (higher speeds and less downforce).

[Risil]

And let's not say anything we'll regret later like "Bring back Magny-Cours" or "What we need is a street course on the outskirts of Paris".  

[Anja]

So all it took was two years and they're already planning some changes, that's good. Meanwhile places like Abu Dhabi still pretend everything is fine after ten years of awfulness.

Edited by Anja, 03 December 2019 - 11:08.

[Risil]

JeePee, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:04, said:

Just remove the Mistral chicane! You'll get a unique circuit in return, with a much more challenging Signes (higher speeds and less downforce).

 

Yes I do a double take when someone says "Let's improve the racing by building tighter chicanes!" It defies logic and reason.

[Marklar]

- Remove Mistral chicane
- Add proper run-off

It would instantly become one of the best tracks

[KWSN - DSM]

Get rid of the tarmac on the sides, make gravel traps, fix curbs so cutting track is a detriment - Do this for a all tracks.

 

[JeePee]

Marklar, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:10, said:

- Remove Mistral chicane
- Add proper run-off

It would instantly become one of the best tracks

Like... for real.

 

What are we missing, or what are the people in charge missing? How can they come up with tightening the chicane, instead of goddamn remove it?

[ANF]

Here's what Boullier has to say about removing the chicane:

“Everybody says take out this chicane and have a straight line and it's going to solve your problem,” he said. “Yes, but it's creating more problems for me because I've got 10,000 grandstand seats there. And obviously the main revenue stream of a grand prix promoter is ticketing.

“So where am I going to put these 10,000 people in the grandstand? Plus, also, all the overtaking manoeuvres happened there.”

https://www.motorspo...ullier/4606108/

[Muppetmad]

Well, at least Boullier is being honest that this is about money rather than good racing.

[RA2]

ANF, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:00, said:

"French Grand Prix organisers are considering making major track layout revisions to Paul Ricard in a bid to make it better for Formula 1 racing, Motorsport.com has learned."
https://www.motorspo...ullier/4606108/

Basically, the FIA and FOM have come up with some ideas on how to improve the circuit, and the organisers are now considering
• straightening the first section of the track to keep cars closer together
• tightening the chicane on the Mistral Straight
• adding a third DRS zone [before Signes? really? that will never work]

Below: 2019 circuit map (Signes = T10, Beausset = T11):

 

 

3 Should connect  to 6 and 10 should connect to 15 then the circuit is perfect 

[ANF]

I guess the tighter chicane would look like the first chicane at Monza?

And I guess removing the chicane from the Mistral Straight would create a problem with DRS: Signes is flat out and DRS would have to be manually deactivated before the corner. It would be like having DRS before 130R at Suzuka or Abbey at Silverstone – simply too dangerous.

Of course, removing DRS from the cars would solve that problem too...

[PayasYouRace]

Still can't work out how it's dangerous to have a DRS zone into a fast corner when the drivers have full control over closing it themselves.

[Risil]

Is the idea that DRS is automatically deactivated as soon as you touch the brake pedal, but there's no equivalent mechanism for when it's a corner that doesn't require the brakes? Seems like an edge case but I can see why you wouldn't want drivers haphazardly deactivating DRS on the approach to such a fast corner. What if one did it early when the other was lining up a pass -- you might have a Webber/Kovalainen at Valencia or Alonso/Gutierrez at Melbourne collision.

[Otaku]

*Remove chicane

*Remove tarmac-parking-lot-like-run-off-areas, EVERYWHERE

 

Done.

[PayasYouRace]

DRS closes either on a second press of the DRS button or automatically on touching the brake pedal. I'm sure drivers could be relied upon to close it with the button if they need to, rather than needing to brake.

[absinthedude]

Boullier is being honest.....$$$$ are more important that the layout of the track..

 

I am firmly in the camp that says "just remove the Mistral chicane". I remember Paul Ricard before the chicane and before they shortened the circuit. I understand fully why they did both, but those reasons are no longer valid. Just remove the damned chicane. 

[Tiakumosan]

Looking at the diagram, I would connect 3 to 5 and 12 to 15 somehow. Would remove the chicane too but it seems they don't want to.

Edited by Tiakumosan, 03 December 2019 - 12:24.

[ANF]

Looking at a satellite image of the circuit, I'm thinking... maybe they'll replace turns 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 with a Hockenheimean hairpin?!


3 MB high-resolution image: https://upload.wikim...2018_SkySat.jpg

Edited by ANF, 03 December 2019 - 12:47.

[TomNokoe]

Damnit, ANF!

 

Ok, I deleted my post, but my thoughts:

I don't think they need to touch S1, but it seems like they are going to straighten T1 - whatever fine. Looks like a very quick corner.

 

They aren't going to remove the Mistral chicane, but they should.

 

I also think it would be better to take the tighter layout into T12.
 

 

ANF, on 03 Dec 2019 - 12:40, said:

I'm thinking... maybe they'll replace turns 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 with a Hockenheimean hairpin?!

 

I don't think they're going to actually change the track construction, just work with the existing layout.

Edited by TomNokoe, 03 December 2019 - 12:47.

[noikeee]

Removing the Mistral chicane would make it a much more challenging track and increase the character of the track, but would greatly *reduce* overtaking under braking at least (unless you guys want to watch DRS drive-bys midway through the straight), and definitely make it less safe (not just the fact drivers would be at risk of massive shunts if they press the DRS button too late, which would happen, but also the fact people would now go into it at 300kph+ dicing for position and bullying other drivers like they do into normal braking zones). I can't agree.

Their plan of simplifying the first sector makes more sense.

[ANF]

TomNokoe, on 03 Dec 2019 - 12:41, said:

I don't think they're going to actually change the track construction, just work with the existing layout.

I don't know, but according to Boullier FOM proposed some pretty radical changes:

“They came back to me with a completely new track layout which was not Paul Ricard at all. It was a new track so a different story!”
...
“But maybe we can change from Turn 1 to Turn 4 to make it, let's say, faster, with big braking. And then having two big straight lines that should cause a team to run less downforce.”

Edited by ANF, 03 December 2019 - 12:53.

[SenorSjon]

Marklar, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:10, said:

- Remove Mistral chicane
- Add proper run-off

It would instantly become one of the best tracks

 

Proper run off as in grass and gravel instead of psychadelic colors?

 

ANF, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:32, said:

Here's what Boullier has to say about removing the chicane:

“Everybody says take out this chicane and have a straight line and it's going to solve your problem,” he said. “Yes, but it's creating more problems for me because I've got 10,000 grandstand seats there. And obviously the main revenue stream of a grand prix promoter is ticketing.

“So where am I going to put these 10,000 people in the grandstand? Plus, also, all the overtaking manoeuvres happened there.”

https://www.motorspo...ullier/4606108/

 

In a few years time, those seats won't be filled at all. Who made him boss there? He wasn't exactly flattering McLaren...

 

ANF, on 03 Dec 2019 - 12:52, said:

I don't know, but according to Boullier FOM proposed some pretty radical changes:

“They came back to me with a completely new track layout which was not Paul Ricard at all. It was a new track so a different story!”
...
“But maybe we can change from Turn 1 to Turn 4 to make it, let's say, faster, with big braking. And then having two big straight lines that should cause a team to run less downforce.”

 

Trying to connect the dots on the map, but there are hardly any hard braking zones or slow accelaration zones on this track. Overtaking is a bit hard without those.

[TomNokoe]

ANF, on 03 Dec 2019 - 12:52, said:

I don't know, but according to Boullier FOM proposed some pretty radical changes:

“They came back to me with a completely new track layout which was not Paul Ricard at all. It was a new track so a different story!”
...
“But maybe we can change from Turn 1 to Turn 4 to make it, let's say, faster, with big braking. And then having two big straight lines that should cause a team to run less downforce.”

 

I stand corrected!

[RA2]

TomNokoe, on 03 Dec 2019 - 13:38, said:

I stand corrected!

 

 

Sector  3 is the messy one, they should modify it

[OO7]

If it's about money rather than racing, then the following can be ignored.

 

1st:  Wait until after the 2021 race to get an idea of how those cars perform around the circuit.

2nd: Tightening the chicane on Mistral won't make much of a difference, because the chasing car needs to be close enough in the first place.

Edited by OO7, 03 December 2019 - 15:25.

[noriaki]

https://ibb.co/72fRP72

 

Apart from the safety of the runoff areas, the track has no positive features about it whatsoever. So the least they could do is to make use of them and make the circuit properly fast. 

[Kalmake]

This should achieve all their goals

[PayasYouRace]

I'll be honest, I think the Mistral chicane is a good feature. The straight is already long enough that cars are near top speed both going into the chicane and going into Signes. Super long straights aren't terribly interesting.

 

I don't know if tightening it would help overtaking.

[Claymore25]

Marklar, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:10, said:

- Remove Mistral chicane
- Add proper run-off

It would instantly become one of the best tracks

 

This.

[Atreiu]

JeePee, on 03 Dec 2019 - 11:04, said:

Just remove the Mistral chicane! You'll get a unique circuit in return, with a much more challenging Signes (higher speeds and less downforce).

 

Agreed.

It is more than obvious.

[Atreiu]

Either 1985 or 1986 layout would be an improvement.

 

1985 for being incredibly fast and an outlier in the current calendar, 86 for being short and quick enough to be the equivalent of F1's Norisring.

[Ruusperi]

Just do this (and for Abu Dhabi as well):

https://imgur.com/ga...8cRj6CD#bboKejr

[ElectricBoogie]

Removing T5, just offering more asphalt (yes), might allow for many alternative lines. A tight slow one, or a wide one with a higher entry speed to the straight.
Should look great from the air.

[PayasYouRace]

Ruusperi, on 03 Dec 2019 - 18:00, said:

Just do this (and for Abu Dhabi as well):

https://imgur.com/ga...8cRj6CD#bboKejr

Even if they just used green and brown paint, it would look a lot nicer.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Or they can just drop the track from the calendar? Would even have kept Hockenheim on the calendar if only this one could go.

[Astandahl]

Bring back Magny Cours you cowards.

 

Delete this abomination.

Edited by Astandahl, 03 December 2019 - 19:23.

[HeadFirst]

Bulldoze the whole mess, and try again.

[NotAPineapple]

Wow! so many circuit design experts in one thread! I feel #blessed! 😍😍😍

[Afterburner]

Ruusperi, on 03 Dec 2019 - 18:00, said:

Just do this (and for Abu Dhabi as well):

https://imgur.com/ga...8cRj6CD#bboKejr

It’s amazing how just the look of normal runoffs makes it feel like F1 used to.

[NewMrMe]

I find Paul Ricard a bit odd.

 

When it was last on the calendar in the 80s it wasn't considered one of the classic circuits but I don't remember hearing too many people complaining and saying it should go either (from what I recall Hungary, Jerez or the US street circuits had the most grumbles at the time).Even the short version used from 1986 to 1990 didn't seem to get that many complaints.

 

When the French GP moved to Magny Cours in 1991, it seemed to be commonly denounced as another example of a boring modern circuit with no character.I can remember people who referred to it as Magny Bore or Mangey Course and wanted the race to go back to Ricard.

 

The race did come back to Ricard last year and with the exception of the Mistral chicane and the reprofiling (tightening) of turns 1 and 2 it is almost the same layout as when F1 last used the long circuit in 1985. It now though seems to be regarded as one of the worst circuits and there are several who now regard it as worse than Magny Cours.

 

Both races so far have been dull, but I find it odd that a track that was passable 35 years ago seems to be so poor for racing today, especially considering the common opinion that tracks have generally got worse over time.

[TennisUK]

Removing the Mistral chicane is clearly not going to happen. Signes would be ludicrous and there is no way tyres (outside front right in particular). Besides Signes is easily flat in a modern f1 car anyway - Le Beausset is a much bigger challenge even if it doesn’t look like it in TV.

They should sharpen up the chicane as it’s huge at the moment which reduces the likelihood of an incisive overtake. And sector one is just a nothing. The complex after le Beausset is also pretty nothing - but at least it’s not too long.

Anyone wanting Magny Bores back is looking at this through rose-tinted glasses, it was a rubbish track (and rubbish to spectate at, too).

[Gambelli]

Why does the mistral chicane have to go?  Just design it properly.

 

Anyone want to know how to do a chicane that looks great on TV, promotes overtaking, is a challenge for the drivers.... take a look at The Chase at Bathurst...... thats how you do a necessary chicane....

 

...Adopt that style, suited of course to F1 cars...... Boulier gets his money, we get a better track with better overtaking......

 

Sorry, just to add, why is it so hard to understand that if you kink a straight away from the next apex just before a braking zone you get better overtaking, its simple physics.  Remember the old bus stop chicane?  same thing, kinked away from the next apex just before the braking zone.  I didn't need to see a single lap of the new bus stop reprofiling to know it was going to reduce overtaking......

Edited by Gambelli, 03 December 2019 - 20:47.

[Atreiu]

1. Magny Cours was trash. It was already born too short and tight and nothing ever made it better;

 

2. Eliminating the Mistral chincane entirely is a simple and very good fix. It would naturally mandate low downforce settings, which are very rarely put in action, and have teams and drivers tackling less familiar settings. Variety, it's good for racing. The full Mistral straight would be long enough to perhaps negate the need for DRS. This in would result in teams and drivers having to decide whether they'd make up their time down the straights or in the corners. Making a wrong choice would be much more costly because drivers would be much more vunerable in one sector, or another.

 

3. Other than that, another good option would be to alter turns 1 and 2 so drivers would go flat out all the way between what is now turns 15 and 3. It would, to a lesser degree, mimic the effect of eliminating the chincane down Mistral, which I prefer. There is already a built in layout option for this.

 

4. Reverting to the the short 1990 layout would not be a poor decision as well. Such a short and quick lap would create a unique scenario of leading drivers facing much more chaos through traffic and possibly smaller windows for under and over cuts. It would make Paul Ricard something like F1's Norisring with drivers just banging quick laps one after another and with no shortage of action for the spectators.

 

5. Another idea would be to bypass turn 14. Have drivers go from turn 13 exit through a 'bent' straight connecting the circuit to the main straight. The main straight would have much more action and the circuit would ignore two corners which do not work so well for F1.

[messy]

I’d take Magny Cours over this monstrosity any day. MC was always - like the A1 Ring - underrated in its early days.

[LucaP]

Magny Cours can be fixed more easily than this atrocity (@Chateau d'Eau and Lycee corners)

[pdac]

Kalmake, on 03 Dec 2019 - 14:20, said:

This should achieve all their goals

 

Yep, it seems the only way to enable F1 cars to race is to have long straights (with DRS) into tight-ish corners. So you might as well get rid of anything else.

[ch103]

I am biased to Magny Cours but the biggest fix they can make is to get rid of the blue paint that traces the circuit.  Who thought that would be a good idea?

[HeadFirst]

pdac, on 04 Dec 2019 - 00:54, said:

Yep, it seems the only way to enable F1 cars to race is to have long straights (with DRS) into tight-ish corners. So you might as well get rid of anything else.

 

Of course they could try fixing the cars, so that drivers could follow and use the draft to pass.