114 replies to this topic

[JHSingo]

DRS is, and always has been since its introduction, a necessary evil until they actually get the cars raceable. I'm all in favour of removing it - but as long as the cars are actually capable of racing each other, which at present, and for the last few years, they haven't been.

 

I didn't bother watching the last race live, since it seemed inevitable it was going to be a dud. But it was funny reading the replies to the topic. People were complaining how boring the race was without DRS, and then others complaining when it was reactivated.    Guess there's no pleasing everyone!

 

I don't get the appeal in just seeing a train of cars. How is that exciting, when we know that it is very unlikely to change? It's not really much of a "battle" if overtaking isn't actually possible...

 

I get the argument against "flybys" - and it amazes me how, even all these years later, F1 is still getting it wrong and making the DRS too powerful/not powerful enough. How hard can it be to get it so that it gives the following driver enough of an advantage to attempt a pass into the braking zone, but not just sail on by?

 

So yeah, fix the cars first (which hopefully 2021 will do) then we can talk about removing DRS. But before then? No.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I'm not sure there is a way to create raceable cars these days.  Let's pretend for a moment that we can create cars that can lap just as well while being one inch behind another car as they can all on their own.  Essentially the car in front is a hologram.  Would overtaking stop being prohibitively hard then? 

 

I'm skeptical.  I used to watch very good sim racers all racing each other, at a time when no simulator modeled the dirty air or marbles off the racing line, and it was still some boring ****.  The very best sim racers rarely made mistakes, and were naturally at similar levels of performance, so they were still driving perfectly in formation for long stretches.  Passing on a road course requires too much of a performance delta between the car+driver combinations in too little of a space.  Racing is too much of a science both from a technical perspective as well as human performance perspective, and it wasn't this way even two decades ago.

[Jazza]

I'm not sure there is a way to create raceable cars these days. Let's pretend for a moment that we can create cars that can lap just as well while being one inch behind another car as they can all on their own. Essentially the car in front is a hologram. Would overtaking stop being prohibitively hard then?

I'm skeptical. I used to watch very good sim racers all racing each other, at a time when no simulator modeled the dirty air or marbles off the racing line, and it was still some boring ****. The very best sim racers rarely made mistakes, and were naturally at similar levels of performance, so they were still driving perfectly in formation for long stretches. Passing on a road course requires too much of a performance delta between the car+driver combinations in too little of a space. Racing is too much of a science both from a technical perspective as well as human performance perspective, and it wasn't this way even two decades ago.

Exactly. The rules have meant that F1 is practically a spec series in the way the cars perform these days.

Yes all the cars are actually different, but no one has an insane advantage in any one area any more. In the past a car could be 20kph+ faster down the straight. They could brake many meters later, or be visibly quicker in a corner. These days almost all the cars brake at roughly the same place. They all have apex speeds within a few km/h of each other. They all accelerate at a similar rate and have similar top speed. When people talk about one car having advantage they a taking about a very small difference (a few kmh here or there)

A second per lap advantage usually means being only .05 faster in any one part of the track. It’s an insanely small different, as both the drivers and the cars are all just too close in performance in all aspects (braking, cornering, power delivery) for anyone to just shoot past another car. Tyres and engine modes are the only thing that creates an obvious difference these days, otherwise they all pretty much just brake and turn at the same spot give or take a meter or two.

[HP]

I'm not sure there is a way to create raceable cars these days.  Let's pretend for a moment that we can create cars that can lap just as well while being one inch behind another car as they can all on their own.  Essentially the car in front is a hologram.  Would overtaking stop being prohibitively hard then? 

 

I'm skeptical.  I used to watch very good sim racers all racing each other, at a time when no simulator modeled the dirty air or marbles off the racing line, and it was still some boring ****.  The very best sim racers rarely made mistakes, and were naturally at similar levels of performance, so they were still driving perfectly in formation for long stretches.  Passing on a road course requires too much of a performance delta between the car+driver combinations in too little of a space.  Racing is too much of a science both from a technical perspective as well as human performance perspective, and it wasn't this way even two decades ago.

Look at Indycar for ideas.

[baddog]

Exactly. The rules have meant that F1 is practically a spec series in the way the cars perform these days.

Yes all the cars are actually different, but no one has an insane advantage in any one area any more. 

 

The results really don't bear this out though, there is a HUGE difference in performance across the field, and even the top cars vary multiple tenths on different sectors.

[Jazza]

The results really don't bear this out though, there is a HUGE difference in performance across the field, and even the top cars vary multiple tenths on different sectors.

It’s nothing compared to many years ago. It’s all just small bits here and there adding up. It creates a difference in lap times (and even sector times) but very little difference on any one piece of the track that would result in one limousine length car going from behind to in front of another.

Look at the midfield. How is that “HUGE”? When you have 6 teams at times covered by a few tenths over a lap it is fairly obvious that there is not one car with a large advantage in any one area. It’s braking a meter later here, going a few kph faster at the apex there, which all adds up over a lap. But that’s not enough of a difference on any one part of the track that would get a car from behind to in front in that one section.

Being 20kph faster than the car in front through turn 7. Braking 10 meters later into turn 5. Being 25kph faster down the main straight. When there are big difference like above that is when cars pass each other. When the difference are a meter or a few kph here and there it creates a train.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Look at Indycar for ideas.

Indycar is a lot less of a science than F1.  Neither the teams nor the drivers are anywhere near as consistent as their F1 counterparts.  That makes Indycar more interesting to watch, but it's not a formula that will translate to F1.

[NotAPineapple]

Exactly, drs was brought in to negate the disadvantage of the dirty air, not to simply give an advantage. To this day I have not seen a net slower car overtake a faster car due to drs so it's doing it's job even though it seems to go over the head of many here.

It's not elegant but it does what's required.

[PayasYouRace]

Indycar is a lot less of a science than F1.  Neither the teams nor the drivers are anywhere near as consistent as their F1 counterparts.  That makes Indycar more interesting to watch, but it's not a formula that will translate to F1.

 

You underestimate how good the Indycar teams are. At least the top teams which accounts for a good chuck of the field and where close racing takes place. The only thing they don't do it actually design and build their cars, so you almost identical Dallaras with a choice of engine.

 

Indycar has a good on track product because the cars aren't too affected by each other in traffic. So even with cars of very similar performance, they can race well. Luckily for F1, the 2021 regulations are taking a lot of lessons from the Indycar design.

[FPV GTHO]

Also, the rev limit was imposed from 2006 onwards, also not helping the cars overspeeding in the red range for that one pass.

The only team than ran to a rev limit in 2006 was Toro Rosso with the Cosworth V10

[FPV GTHO]

Exactly, drs was brought in to negate the disadvantage of the dirty air, not to simply give an advantage. To this day I have not seen a net slower car overtake a faster car due to drs so it's doing it's job even though it seems to go over the head of many here.

It's not elegant but it does what's required.

That likely contributes to the impression of drive by overtaking. Following cars have so much performance in reserve if they can get in a position to use DRS that there's usually an instant gap once the move is made. I think only Baku has been close to an exception.

[moreland]

Indycar is a lot less of a science than F1. Neither the teams nor the drivers are anywhere near as consistent as their F1 counterparts. That makes Indycar more interesting to watch, but it's not a formula that will translate to F1.

It's complicated. F1 cars without drs and formula 3 cars, overtaking is very hard. But indycars and f2/gp2 cars even before they had drs, overtaking is/was possible. Not sure about gp3, but I believe they found it hard to race with each other too. Dirty air is an issue but I think there are other factors, I think cars with lots of power and not so much grip are harder to drive but easier to race, cars with lots of grip and not so much power are easier to drive, harder to race. Less chance of errors, shorter braking zones. I think the sim racing example supports this, I'm guessing it didn't include locking tyres, flat spots, missed gears, tyres going in and out of the window etc. As well as solving the dirty air problem, I think the rules should also be designed to make the cars overall more challenging and nervous to drive at their limit.

[noriaki]

With the current regs, on a track like Abu Dhabi - essentially it's a choice.

On a track like Abu Dhabi - either you have no DRS, and it will be difficult for a Mercedes to overtake a Renault they are 1.5 secs faster per lap. And impossible to overtake a Ferrari they are 0.5 secs faster per lap because of the dirty air.

Or you have DRS and it will easy to pass that Renault but difficult to overtake that Ferrari.

It appears that some anti-DRS people want both, for every overtake be similarly difficult no matter whether a top car is charging through the field of slow backmarkers or fighting another top car on the ragged edge. But unfortunately that's not possible by laws of physics.

DRS is an awful concept but sadly so are the current regs and hence on most tracks it's still a necessary bandaid. I hope the 2021 regs will finally remove the need.

[crooky369]

There should be a Formula E style vote at the one third point of the race where people rank the racing on a 1-10 scale. If it’s below a 6.5 average they switch on the DRS for the second half.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

You underestimate how good the Indycar teams are. At least the top teams which accounts for a good chuck of the field and where close racing takes place. The only thing they don't do it actually design and build their cars, so you almost identical Dallaras with a choice of engine.

 

Indycar has a good on track product because the cars aren't too affected by each other in traffic. So even with cars of very similar performance, they can race well. Luckily for F1, the 2021 regulations are taking a lot of lessons from the Indycar design.

How many Indycar teams have back offices with countless engineers keep tabs on all systems of their cars live during the race, and continuously running the simulations to get the best race strategy in real time?  I'm not saying that all these hundreds of engineers are adding anything to the F1 show, in fact they're most likely detracting from it, but F1 teams and Indycar teams aren't even playing the same game.