3723 replies to this topic

[68targa]

This pic should really be in colour to show off the bright red with yellow race numerals of the Momo Porsche 935. It looked really smart  Maybe someonme else has one. Driven by Gianpiero Moretti and Mauro Baldi in the pit lane at Silverstone 1982.

 

[jcbc3]

 

From this site. 

Swifty's Garage

Forum for collectors of diecast cars, with a particular focus on 1/64

 

MOMO Porsche 935/78 Custom Project

 

 

 https://www.swiftysg...ect-t68471.html

 

 

[edit]

formatting got out of hand as I copy pasted

[/edit]

[Henri Greuter]

Remembering Tony Renna

 

 

 

Each and every time when I hear/read people talk about going after the speed records and Indy again, I can't help thinking about Tony.....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 01 June 2020 - 08:49.

[Ivanhoe]

The Alfa Romeo 159 of Paul Pietsch at the Nürburgring in 1951. Pietsch is the founder of magazine Das Auto, which later became Auto, Motor und Sport.

[DeKnyff]

This pic should really be in colour to show off the bright red with yellow race numerals of the Momo Porsche 935. It looked really smart  Maybe someonme else has one. Driven by Gianpiero Moretti and Mauro Baldi in the pit lane at Silverstone 1982.

 

 

 I think some late iterations of the 935 took the concept of "silhouette" really a bit too far...

[jcbc3]

A whale tail is a whale tail.

[jcbc3]

COMPLETELY OT:

Spoiler

What do we think of this recreation?: https://www.carmagaz...ws/porsche/935/

 

Abomination or tribute? 

 

 

[DeKnyff]

COMPLETELY OT:

[spoiler]

What do we think of this recreation?: https://www.carmagaz...ws/porsche/935/

 

Abomination or tribute? 

 

 

Tribute. And it's much less of an abomination than some real 935s.

[Ivanhoe]

 I think some late iterations of the 935 took the concept of "silhouette" really a bit too far...

That’s what you get when the rule is that the basic silhouette remained unchanged seen from the front.

[Ivanhoe]

COMPLETELY OT:

Spoiler

What do we think of this recreation?: https://www.carmagaz...ws/porsche/935/

 

Abomination or tribute? 

 

Apart from the oversized rear wing, an absolute tribute.

[DeKnyff]

That’s what you get when the rule is that the basic silhouette remained unchanged seen from the front.

IIRC, the only rule concerning the side view was that the doors should remain original.

 

I think the concept behind the DTM owes a lot to the "silhouttes" of the late seventies. 

Edited by DeKnyff, 01 June 2020 - 10:33.

[68targa]

The Alfa Romeo 159 of Paul Pietsch at the Nürburgring in 1951. Pietsch is the founder of magazine Das Auto, which later became Auto, Motor und Sport.

 

 

It is unusual to see such high race numbers for these GP cars. It seem,s to have been a German numbering system at that time. In 1952 the cars were numbered 101 upwards

 

Paul Pietsch lived to be 101 and only died in 2012.  Apparently before the war his wife had an affair with Archille Varzi when they were both Auto Union drivers.
 

[PayasYouRace]

COMPLETELY OT:

Spoiler

What do we think of this recreation?: https://www.carmagaz...ws/porsche/935/

 

Abomination or tribute? 

 

 

 

Saw it on Doug DeMuro video recently. It's a very cool car.

[BRG]

Apparently before the war his wife had an affair with Archille Varzi when they were both Auto Union drivers.

 

Frau Pietsch was an Auto-Union driver?  Quick, tell the W Series people!  

[Amphicar]

Indy 1978 - Mike Mosley in the Alex Xlnt Lightning-Offy

 

[Sterzo]

 

 

The colourful Maserati Birdcage of Connell and Schroeder at the Nassau race week in 1961.

 

If you look at the visible part of the frame behind the perspex windscreen, you can understand why it was called "birdcage".

 

The VSCC club magazine once claimed to have documents recording the development of the Birdcage. Only when I read the first frame was made out of spaghetti did I begin to think...

[68targa]

1978 Le Mans - WM-P78 Turbo driven by Marc Sourd, Christian Debias & Xavier Mathiot. Debias had a bad accident on the Mulsanne straight from which he recovered.

 

This is one of the early years for the WM's which were something of Le Mans specials.  It seems that during the 1980's they had one aim - to be the fastest down the Mulsanne straight. In 1988 Roger Dorchy hit 251.65mph. The record still stands.  By 1990 those chicanes appeared on the Mulsanne.

 

There is a short bio of Gerard Welter its designer and the W in WM here:

https://www.lemans.o...ssed-away/48169

 

 

[DeKnyff]

 

 

Australian legend Peter Brock's Austin A30 with which he started his career in the late sixties.Mind you, the car had a six cylinder Holden under the bonnet!

Edited by DeKnyff, 02 June 2020 - 10:12.

[Ivanhoe]

As a works team Porsche debuted at the Indy 500 in 1980, but it was privateer Albert Stein who entered the first Porsche engined 4WD car at the 1966 Indy 500, featuring two flat six 901 engines in a roadster-like designed car. Bill Cheesbourg had the honour of driving this car at the Speedway, failing to make it to the final row by nearly 10 mph. According to Cheesbourg the car was lacking predominantly in power as he claimed he could drive full throttle through all four corners.

 

 

More about this project can be read here: https://flatsixes.co...e-indianapolis/

Edited by Ivanhoe, 02 June 2020 - 09:54.

[Henri Greuter]

 

 
Australian legend Peter Brock's Austin A30 with which he started his career in the late sixties.Mind you, the car a six cylinder Holden under the bonnet!

So: what was new about the MG Metro 6R4 that basicly was the same concept of having a too big engine in a too small car.....
Now we know where the inspiration came from....

[BRG]

 

Australian legend Peter Brock's Austin A30 with which he started his career in the late sixties.Mind you, the car had a six cylinder Holden under the bonnet!

But was it fitted with an Energy Polariser?

 

So: what was new about the MG Metro 6R4 that basicly was the same concept of having a too big engine in a too small car.....

The main problem with the 6R4 was that the engine wasn't big enough.  They should have shoehorned a DFV into that sucker, preferably with turbos on it.  That would have made Lancia and Peugeot sit up and take notice!

[Henri Greuter]

The main problem with the 6R4 was that the engine wasn't big enough.  They should have shoehorned a DFV into that sucker, preferably with turbos on it.  That would have made Lancia and Peugeot sit up and take notice!

I'm sure you are much more familiar with the history of the 6R4 than that you show to be with such a comment.

Seriously
There was not enough room for a V8 within the wheelbase, hence why they had to go for a V6.
And seriously, the 6R4 was in the weight category for 3 l atmo and/or 2.1 liter turbocharged.
No idea what the minimum weight for a turbocharged 3 liter would have been.
So, how much lead would have been added to the car had it been fitted with a turbocharged DFV? Assuming there was somewhere some room left within the shell to squeeze in a V8, with turbo and intercoolers etc and then somehow find the room for all the lead blocks .
No need for kevlar bodypanels etc. on such a device anymore.....

6R4: of all Gp B cars, the biggest waste of efforts with the exception of GP.B's equivalent of the Ford T: The Citroen BX 4TC.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 June 2020 - 11:34.

[Amphicar]

Le Mans 24 Hrs 2010 -  Dirk Werner, Dirk Müller and Andy Priaulx  drove the Jeff Koons designed BMW Motorsport M3 GT2 Art Car

 

[Sterzo]

^ At least they could find their own car in the car park.

[68targa]

Not up to the Jeff Koons paint job but trying to look different

 

1985 Spa 1000kms - Ecosse C285 Group C2 Ford Cosworth DFV. David Leslie, Ray Mallock and Mike Wilds on duty.

 

[DeKnyff]

 

Coming back to the most extreme 935s, here are John Fitzpatrick (driver and also car-owner) and David Hobbs at the 24 hours of Le Mans of 1982. They finished 4th overall and won the IMSA GTX class.

 

This very same car claimed the life of the great Rolf Stommelen some months later, at Riverside, when the rear wing detached at high speed.

 

That day, Stommelen's team mate was Derek Bell. This is his opinion on the 935, as he answered to a journalist of Car & Driver:

 

 

C/D: You had a few Formula 1 drives and competed in everything from Can-Am to touring cars, as well as decades in sports cars. Which was the scariest car?

DB: I’d say hairy rather than scary. Probably the Porsche 935, because it wasn’t meant to do what it did. You had to manhandle it. The car didn’t want to turn; the tires were about 18 inches wide at the back; you had the engine behind the centerline of the rear wheels and it’s pushing out 750 horsepower. I don’t remember many of us having accidents in them—well, apart from the obvious one when my teammate [Rolf Stommelen] died in the car I’d just got out of. Generally speaking, we didn’t make mistakes in them because you couldn’t. It was a hell of a thing, an absolute animal.

[Ivanhoe]

Not up to the Jeff Koons paint job but trying to look different

 

1985 Spa 1000kms - Ecosse C285 Group C2 Ford Cosworth DFV. David Leslie, Ray Mallock and Mike Wilds on duty.

 

Here’s another Ecurie Ecosse at Le Mans 1986 (unintentionally) trying to look different.

And it was a #79 as well!

 

Edited by Ivanhoe, 02 June 2020 - 14:34.

[Amphicar]

Indy 1981 - Pete Halsmer in the  Hubler Chevrolet/KISS 99/Colonial Bread Penske-Cosworth

 

[MCS]

Wow.  Really like the colour scheme on the Halsmer Penske - hadn't seen that before. Terrific.

[BRG]

I'm sure you are much more familiar with the history of the 6R4 than that you show to be with such a comment.

Seriously
There was not enough room for a V8 within the wheelbase, hence why they had to go for a V6.
And seriously, the 6R4 was in the weight category for 3 l atmo and/or 2.1 liter turbocharged.

The comment was not terribly serious.   But you may not be aware of the DAMS 4100 which was basically a 6R4 with a 4.1 litre Rover V8 stuffed up its chuff.  It was done by a guy called David Appleby who I think had worked for ARG when the 6R4 was being built originally.  I am not sure off-hand of the relative dimensions of Rover and DFV but surely the Cossie wouldn't be bulkier than a old production engine? 

 

As for weight, a turbo DFV would have been counted as 4.2 litre so the car would need to be 1235kg minimum.  As that is LIGHTER than current World Rally Cars, it would not have been a problem.  Especially with 800 or more bhp.....

 

The Metro 6R4 is the only car in which I have been barrel-rolled in the air, landing on our wheels, but not proceeding any further!

[Ivanhoe]

The Metro 6R4 is the only car in which I have been barrel-rolled in the air, landing on our wheels, but not proceeding any further!

Because the car was damaged or you were a little shook up?

[Henri Greuter]

The comment was not terribly serious.   But you may not be aware of the DAMS 4100 which was basically a 6R4 with a 4.1 litre Rover V8 stuffed up its chuff.  It was done by a guy called David Appleby who I think had worked for ARG when the 6R4 was being built originally.  I am not sure off-hand of the relative dimensions of Rover and DFV but surely the Cossie wouldn't be bulkier than a old production engine? 

 

As for weight, a turbo DFV would have been counted as 4.2 litre so the car would need to be 1235kg minimum.  As that is LIGHTER than current World Rally Cars, it would not have been a problem.  Especially with 800 or more bhp.....

 

The Metro 6R4 is the only car in which I have been barrel-rolled in the air, landing on our wheels, but not proceeding any further!

 

I was not aware of the DAMS. But looking at the pics, they certainly hacksawed the shell to make the engine more assessible.

I also know that Will Gollop managed to turbocharge a 6RV for rallycrossing. How in the world all that plumbing could fit is beyond my imagination.

Biggest worry I can think of for a 1235 kg Metro 6R4 is to find the space within the car to put all the ballast. There was so little space left inside....

 

As for a turbocharged Cosworth, perhaps a 2.65 liter DFX was a better option: car could be a little lighter then. But DFX's ran on methanol so would have needed a major overhaul.

 

Do envy you to some extend for at least having had the experience of  a ride in one. I never came any further than seeing one in real.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 June 2020 - 19:20.

[midgrid]

Le Mans 24 Hrs 2010 - Dirk Werner, Dirk Müller and Andy Priaulx drove the Jeff Koons designed BMW Motorsport M3 GT2 Art Car

I was at this race and the art car was a fan favourite! The earlier Alexander Calder art car (#93) was also on display.

[Beri]

I guess we will reach #112 before the lights go out.



Larry Dickson #80, Rich Vogler and James McElreath #23 race three-wide at Terre Haute in 1975

[Ivanhoe]

Graham Hill in a Lotus 38 at the 1967 Indy 500 accompanied by Jim Clark. Hill used the Lotus 38 in practise but couldn’t get it up to speed after which he swapped to a Lotus 42, which we will probably see tomorrow.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 03 June 2020 - 07:01.

[DeKnyff]

 

Future winner Jean-Pierre Nicolas at his first the Monte Carlo rally in 1968. He would lead group 1 with his Renault 8 Gordini, before being forced to abandon.

 

The picture must have been taken during a transport stage or at practice, since the drivers are not using helmets.

 

I've read a history about Jean-Pierre Nicolas at that rally (I don't know if it is 100% accurate): while practising before the rally, Nicolas met Vic Elford, who was also practising, at a restaurant (Elford would win the rally that year in a Porsche 911). They started chatting and Nicolas told Elford that he was worried because he hadn't any experience on snow driving. Elford must have felt sorry for him and said, 'OK guy, I'll  show you some tips', so they went into Elford's 911, with his wife as navigator and Nicolas on the cramped rear seat. He told later that he had never been so scared in his life, but he understood how a rear engined car should be driven in the snow, which helped him a lot with the Renault 8, Alpine A110 and Porsche 911 he drove along his career.

[Ivanhoe]

Great picture and anecdote 

[Henri Greuter]

 
Future winner Jean-Pierre Nicolas at his first the Monte Carlo rally in 1968. He would lead group 1 with his Renault 8 Gordini, before being forced to abandon.
 
The picture must have been taken during a transport stage or at practice, since the drivers are not using helmets.
 
I've read a history about Jean-Pierre Nicolas at that rally (I don't know if it is 100% accurate): while practising before the rally, Nicolas met Vic Elford, who was also practising, at a restaurant (Elford would win the rally that year in a Porsche 911). They started chatting and Nicolas told Elford that he was worried because he hadn't any experience on snow driving. Elford must have felt sorry for him and said, 'OK guy, I'll  show you some tips', so they went into Elford's 911, with his wife as navigator and Nicolas on the cramped rear seat. He told later that he had never been so scared in his life, but he understood how a rear engined car should be driven in the snow, which helped him a lot with the Renault 8, Alpine A110 and Porsche 911 he drove along his career.

Nice story, I can easily envision it being true. "Quick Vic" was such a gentlemen.
And if indeed true, how fitting if we remember that Elford won with a 911, but Nicholas won the MonteCarlo 10 years later in '78 in, of all things, a 911 in, of all things, a snowy Monte....

[Henri Greuter]

I guess we will reach #112 before the lights go out.



Larry Dickson #80, Rich Vogler and James McElreath #23 race three-wide at Terre Haute in 1975

Sad, spooky statistic on this picture: It is posted because of featuring an 80 but the two drivers in the other cars both met their death driving Sprint cars in later years, James in okt. 77, Rich in July 1990.
While Larry Dickson is still alive.....

[68targa]

There was a time when World Champions and their pals had some fun at race tracks - Procar was one of those times. 

 

Here in # 80 is the lesser known German driver Hans Georg Buerger who had a chance to race against the stars of the day.

 

BASF had such a great colour scheme

 

[Beri]

Sad, spooky statistic on this picture: It is posted because of featuring an 80 but the two drivers in the other cars both met their death driving Sprint cars in later years, James in okt. 77, Rich in July 1990.
While Larry Dickson is still alive.....

I didn't know who or what it was when posting the picture. It featured the number 80, so that's why Ive picked it. Not a very nice statistic indeed Henri.

[Amphicar]

George "Ziggy" Snider in the G.C. Murphy Eagle-Offy Indy 1971

 

[Henri Greuter]

I didn't know who or what it was when posting the picture. It featured the number 80, so that's why Ive picked it. Not a very nice statistic indeed Henri.

Don't worry, I'm positive it wasn't intentional to hurt anyone. But just something that struck me when I read the names of the drivers involved.
Please don't let it stop you to post pics, OK? Lots of people (though not posting here) have fond memories about James and in particular Rich Vogler.
As for James, the thing is very sad because of some weird other matters.

His dad was Jim McElreath, another Indycar driver of name and fame. In 1977 Jim and James were the first ever father and son combo ever to appear at Indy to qualify for the race. Jemes didn't make it so there still was no father&son in the field. Sadly, a few moths later james was killed and thus the McElreaths never made it and it was to Al Sr en Jr to be the first ever father&son in the race (1983).
But the Unsers never were the first pair that tried, only the first pair to succeed. James McElreath was the son part of the first pair that tried and at least practiced at the track that year. And thus he is within the record books.

Father Jim was struck by fate another time.
He also had a daughter, Shirley. She married with Indycar driver and later CART entrant Tony Bettenhausen Jr. They were killed in a private airplane crash in feb. 2000.
Jim had the sad fact to have bury his both children before he eventually passed away in 2017. I have met him once and it was easy to notice that life had taken a toll on him. Very nice man but not willing to tell too much about the past anymore. Given what happened, very understandable.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 June 2020 - 09:37.

[Ivanhoe]

Porsche 550 RS at the 1958 Targa Florio.

 

Looks even better from behind

[Amphicar]

Talking of Al Unser Sr...here he is in the Budweiser Lola-Chevy in 1993 - his final race at Indy a day after his 54th birthday

 

[BRG]

Because the car was damaged or you were a little shook up?

We ran up a bank and the car barrel-rolled in the air without touching the roof, landing neatly in a side turning off the stage.  The car was rather the worse for wear with damaged suspension and some panels, so that was that.  We were unharmed.  I was co-driving and scrambled out urgently, like you do.  I then turned to see if the driver was OK, only to find him calmly sitting at the wheel, calling the service crew on his mobile phone (one of those very early ones like a brick) to come and collect us.  I was a little shook up of course as you are when the adrenalin flows but nothing to talk about.  

 

Do envy you to some extend for at least having had the experience of  a ride in one. I never came any further than seeing one in real.

It was awesome (not a word I usually use!).  From the stage start it was just up through the gears one-two-three-four-five as fast as that and then up the bank and over.  The thing was a rocket ship - and that was without a turbocharged DFV!!

 

 

Future winner Jean-Pierre Nicolas at his first the Monte Carlo rally in 1968. He would lead group 1 with his Renault 8 Gordini, before being forced to abandon.

 

I have always liked the R8 Gordini in rally trim - in French racing blue and with splayed spotlights on the front corners.  Essence of 1960s rallying!  I once worked in a Renault dealer in my school holidays and the boss sent me off to register some new cars in his Gordini.  Having barely passed my test, I had never driven anything so fast.

 

Many, many years later, I was in Avignon one evening and walked past an old fashioned garage.  There was a perfectly restored rally Gordini inside.  I wandered in to look and was approached by the owner who was delighted to met a rosbif who shared his love of the car.  We talked rallying in my dreadful French and his dreadful English and parted the best of friends.  There is camaraderie of rallyists that has stood me in good stead a few times in my travels!

Edited by BRG, 03 June 2020 - 11:33.

[Beri]

Don't worry, I'm positive it wasn't intentional to hurt anyone. But just something that struck me when I read the names of the drivers involved.
Please don't let it stop you to post pics, OK? Lots of people (though not posting here) have fond memories about James and in particular Rich Vogler.
As for James, the thing is very sad because of some weird other matters.

His dad was Jim McElreath, another Indycar driver of name and fame. In 1977 Jim and James were the first ever father and son combo ever to appear at Indy to qualify for the race. Jemes didn't make it so there still was no father&son in the field. Sadly, a few moths later james was killed and thus the McElreaths never made it and it was to Al Sr en Jr to be the first ever father&son in the race (1983).
But the Unsers never were the first pair that tried, only the first pair to succeed. James McElreath was the son part of the first pair that tried and at least practiced at the track that year. And thus he is within the record books.

Father Jim was struck by fate another time.
He also had a daughter, Shirley. She married with Indycar driver and later CART entrant Tony Bettenhausen Jr. They were killed in a private airplane crash in feb. 2000.
Jim had the sad fact to have bury his both children before he eventually passed away in 2017. I have met him once and it was easy to notice that life had taken a toll on him. Very nice man but not willing to tell too much about the past anymore. Given what happened, very understandable.

 

Dont worry. Im not a sensitive type. Or like we call it in Dutch: Ik ben meer een lompe boer die zich niet snel van de wijs laat brengen door zulke verhalen.

[GlenWatkins]

Porsche 550 RS at the 1958 Targa Florio.

 

Looks even better from behind

 

Did this car have the 4 cam Carrera engine?

[Ivanhoe]

Yes, it had the flat 4 / 4 cam Fuhrmann engine. Think it was the last year they ran it, with the introduction of the 718.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 03 June 2020 - 17:19.

[Henri Greuter]

Talking of Al Unser Sr...here he is in the Budweiser Lola-Chevy in 1993 - his final race at Indy a day after his 54th birthday

 

Oh, this was confusing....

I think Brian will confirm that as well. Al was one of three Budweiser entries, Roberto Guerrero in the #40 and Jim Crawford in the #60

But all three cars looked so similar and when one of them passed at speed it was ever so often a question who you had seen. There is a bit of blue on Unser's car, one of the other cars had a bit of white, but it was difficult to keep the three different cars apart on first sight.

 

But those '93 Lola's were neat!!!!