75 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

https://www.motorspo...erated/4607819/

 

 

A plan to drop the Q2 tyre rule was discussed by the F1 Strategy Group this year. However, because the April 30th deadline for 2020 sporting regulation changes had passed, unanimity was required, and in the end the top teams and some of their satellites voted against any change. The rule also remains in place for 2021, even though unanimity is not needed at this stage.

 

“It was agreed in the Strategy Group, everyone agreed [to bin it]. Then when it comes to a vote, all the arrangements seemed to come back, and frankly I’m exasperated by that.

 

“There was a lobby from the top teams and their junior teams to stop a change, because it’s a regulation that was engineered by the top teams to protect them. I don’t think they need it, but it’s an extra protection.

 

 

Edit

The quote editor is a mess... 

 

For the second year in a row, the Q2 tire rule survives due to political reasons. Why it isn't voted down a season later (only majority needed) is beyond me? The article mentions it also stays for 2021, but not how that happened.

 

One thing I don't get, why do they still run Q2 on softs? There is almost no advantage to be gained if the track is extremely hostile towards tires. You can't hedge on a favorable VSC/SC in lap 15ish to get rid of the softs.

Edited by SenorSjon, 09 December 2019 - 12:33.

[ARTGP]

If I had to guess, certain teams actually prefer it this way.

 

Either from the front, so they can have better strategy than the midfield, or at the back, where they can start on better tires than the leading midfield teams.

[SenorSjon]

The rule was imagined to give the top 10 headaches. Now it locks position 7-10 in a poor strategy. Position 11 onwards have the same strategy as the front. In ~20 laps, they lose 30 seconds and the front runners can pit safely without bothering an overtake.

Edited by SenorSjon, 09 December 2019 - 12:48.

[NixxxoN]

The other teams should boycott that by always running mediums on Q2, thats it.
What a stupid rule and what a stupid selfishness from top teams.

[SenorSjon]

The lower teams who are destined for Q2 and not Q3 also profit from this by dictating strategy for possible faster cars.

[NixxxoN]

The lower teams who are destined for Q2 and not Q3 also profit from this by dictating strategy for possible faster cars.

Most cars that reach Q2 also can reach Q3 because the difference in midfield is very small so those midfield teams can sometimes be benefited and sometimes not.
Guess who are the ones that benefit from it ALL THE TIME? Yeah, only the top teams.

They should drop it ASAP and replace it with Q3 best time tires, so the 7-10 cars can have some kind of chance to have better results when qualifying on mediums.
Heck, top teams can also use mediums if they want, its their choice.

Edited by NixxxoN, 09 December 2019 - 13:56.

[Kev00]

There is no reason to have this rule. Absolutely stupid. Which is why I’m not surprised they have stuck with it. Idiots.

[rodlamas]

The rule is stupid because the 6th fastest driver is always WAY faster than the 7th fastest. If Mclaren and Renault could mix up with the Red Bulls and the Ferraris this rule would be considered very good.

[SenorSjon]

Most cars that reach Q2 also can reach Q3 because the difference in midfield is very small so those midfield teams can sometimes be benefited and sometimes not.
Guess who are the ones that benefit from it ALL THE TIME? Yeah, only the top teams.

They should drop it ASAP and replace it with Q3 best time tires, so the 7-10 cars can have some kind of chance to have better results when qualifying on mediums.
Heck, top teams can also use mediums if they want, its their choice.

 

We had Q3 as a rule and it made a mockery of Q3. Lower placed drivers wouldn't run Q3 to save tires. It was therefore moved to Q2.

[NixxxoN]

We had Q3 as a rule and it made a mockery of Q3. Lower placed drivers wouldn't run Q3 to save tires. It was therefore moved to Q2.

So the solution for that problem ended up creating an even worse problem. Very clever... A "solution" that didnt make any sense in the first place.

Edited by NixxxoN, 09 December 2019 - 14:18.

[ARTGP]

To be fair to all sides, and look at it in a different way....

 

It's not the case that the rule has no purpose, it just doesn't fit the current F1 where the gap to Top 3 teams is massive.

[TomNokoe]

Rubbish

[MikeV1987]

This rule should have been abolished a long time ago. If you are not one of the big 3 then it’s more beneficial to start P11 than 7th to 10th most of the time.

I don’t get the obsession with starting on tires you used in qualy. It didn’t work for q3 tires and it’s not working now. Just let everyone start the race on fresh tires. It’s fair for everyone.

Edited by MikeV1987, 09 December 2019 - 15:10.

[CPR]

Here's hoping the top teams get some karma next year. ie the competitiveness of the midfield catches them out and now they suddenly don't like the silly tyre rule that has been benefiting them recently.

[goldenboy]

Terrible rule. Really too much of a disadvantage to the good midfield qualifiers.

[SenorSjon]

So the solution for that problem ended up creating an even worse problem. Very clever... A "solution" that didnt make any sense in the first place.

 

It was changed in 2014 because we had very low key Q3's in 2013 when some elected not to post a time.

 

https://www.racefans...e-q3-tyre-rule/

See more for a small history.

[NixxxoN]

It was changed in 2014 because we had very low key Q3's in 2013 when some elected not to post a time.
 
https://www.racefans...e-q3-tyre-rule/
See more for a small history.

Yes, not a bit deal at all considering they would've qualified around 7 to 10 anyways... so as I said, they tried to fix a SMALL problem and that ended up creating a BIG problem.
By trying to fix a small and not very relevant part of qualy, they ended up destroying the race between the best of the rest and the top 3 which is absolutely terrible. And we the fans are paying for this

Edited by NixxxoN, 09 December 2019 - 15:26.

[Mauseri]

I wonder if the small number of creditable surprise podiums these days is because you can't play the long game from P7-P10.

Edited by Mauseri, 09 December 2019 - 15:44.

[SenorSjon]

Yes, not a bit deal at all considering they would've qualified around 7 to 10 anyways... so as I said, they tried to fix a SMALL problem and that ended up creating a BIG problem.
By trying to fix a small and not very relevant part of qualy, they ended up destroying the race between the best of the rest and the top 3 which is absolutely terrible. And we the fans are paying for this

 

In those days, the field (bar RB) was a lot closer to each other than it is now. 

[NixxxoN]

In those days, the field (bar RB) was a lot closer to each other than it is now.

Okay, so instead of thinking about a logical solution (like, mandatory hotlap?) they messed it up completely

[Marklar]

Here's hoping the top teams get some karma next year. ie the competitiveness of the midfield catches them out and now they suddenly don't like the silly tyre rule that has been benefiting them recently.

I dont really think so. Starting on softs from Pole is still much better than from P11 on mediums. At best it could bite in this scenario the 3rd quickest team since P6 is a tad more critical (just like it is for P7 rn), but even in that case I would doubt that one.

One major reason why P7 is so much in danger is because the gaps are very small. Now while it doesnt need as big improvements to prevent top teams from running mediums it needs one hell of a jump to really threaten them pace wise with these strategies in the race.

[Atreiu]

This is when it becomes apparent the FIA is spineless. Rules like these should come from them, and them alone.

[Fatgadget]

There is no reason to have this rule. Absolutely stupid. Which is why I’m not surprised they have stuck with it. Idiots.

All very well calling them' idiots'...I however doubt they would get away being that idiotic pitched against  some of the best brains in the business. Why no complaints from those that matter then?

[Pimpwerx]

The rule makes sense. Trade qualifying security for a better race strategy. It provides an opportunity for staggered strategies up front, or jumbled grids. The rule want meant to fix the stratification between F1 and F1.5. I think removing the rule will lead to regret for lost opportunity if there is more parity in the field.

We still get to see cars with ultimate pace as well. Q2 isn't a big deal for the Big3.

Edited by Pimpwerx, 09 December 2019 - 17:13.

[PayasYouRace]

It never works out like that though. It doesn’t affect the top 3 teams as they have enough of an advantage to fill the top 6 places whatever happens. Then all it does is punish the top 4 midfield cars for doing well in qualifying.

[Clatter]

Just shows that once again the teams have too much power. This is a change that would cost them nothing, no redesign required. Should have been told, not asked.

[DutchQuicksilver]

http://gptoday.com/f..._remains_in_F1/

 

For once Abiteboul says something sensible. It’s utterly ridiculous that qualifying in the top ten is actually a disadvantage when you’re not in a Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull. Unfortunately those three only think about themselves and not the sport in general.

[Neno]

http://gptoday.com/f..._remains_in_F1/

 

For once Abiteboul says something sensible. It’s utterly ridiculous that qualifying in the top ten is actually a disadvantage when you’re not in a Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull. Unfortunately those three only think about themselves and not the sport in general.

Time will come when Merc and Red Bull are in midfield and they will struggle. I live for that day.  What goes around comes around. Dont worry Cyril. Just build a good team and results will come to push them there. 

Edited by Neno, 09 December 2019 - 18:29.

[Marklar]

I dont really get why everyone is acting like the top teams mainly are helped by this. Do you seriously think that it would change anything on the results if they would start on softs instead of mediums?

This is more something that benefits lower midfield teams, so everyone else bar Renault and McLaren (for this year).

It makes no sense to me that they put this up every year for vote. In this scenario you will always have teams that will be in favour of it simply beause it benefits them, and not only the top teams, really.

[SonGoku]

There is nothing wrong with the rule, it was only not expected that the top 3 teams are having their own series since 2014.

[Marklar]

There is nothing wrong with the rule, it was only not expected that the top 3 teams are having their own series since 2014.

I still dont really get this argument.

It doesnt matter if the top 3 teams have a massive advantage or not. If you have so much of an advantage to qualify on mediums then they would have had also the pace to easily dominate it starting on softs. We've seen so often how the soft was only supposed to last 10 laps, but the top teams have easily the pace to just go longer without losing time.

If the top teams werent dominant P1-10 would be always starting on softs, and then? How was this going to threaten them?

The point is that qualifying in P7 is usually worse than qualifying in P11, this is extremely unfair, and this was already clear back then.

I dont understand why they dont just give free tyre choice, especially since now there are three compounds, so much more likely that teams will pick different strategies. It would also create more unpredictability, because nobody knows what their main competitor runs until 5 minutes before the start (already the case from P11 down)

[Otaku]

The rule is stupid and the teams having to agree to get it removed is even more stupid. The governing body should just be able to say "fk this rule, it's no longer in place wether you like it or not". Teams have to follow the rules, not make them.

[PlatenGlass]

It's a stupid rule regardless of it only being positions 7 to 10 (rather than the whole of the top 10) being penalised. It's basically a way of penalising faster cars, like success ballast or reverse grids, which most people on here would have no time for.

[Mc_Silver]

This decision shows F1 is still all about politics.

[Jazza]

I dont really get why everyone is acting like the top teams mainly are helped by this. Do you seriously think that it would change anything on the results if they would start on softs instead of mediums?

This is more something that benefits lower midfield teams, so everyone else bar Renault and McLaren (for this year).

It makes no sense to me that they put this up every year for vote. In this scenario you will always have teams that will be in favour of it simply beause it benefits them, and not only the top teams, really.

I could be very wrong, but I think the top teams are against it because a change in the rule would in fact impact them.

I don’t believe the proposal is to start the race on fresh tyres, but to start the race on Q3 tyres instead of Q2 (as it used to be). As it is at the moment the top teams get into Q2 early and can then go flat in Q3 without concern of having to start on those tyres. This of course means that the current rule has no real impact on them. A change back to having to start on Q3 tyres would however be of a problem for them.

But as I said, I could be completely wrong about all that...

[Pingguest]

This rule one of the many that make sport unnecessarily complex for the casual viewers.

[FortiFord]

There is nothing wrong with the rule, it was only not expected that the top 3 teams are having their own series since 2014.

 

Precisely this. Additionally, Pirelli now bring 3 compounds to each race. This rule allows the top teams to avoid running the softest tyre without penalising their starting position. Consequently, most races end up being 1 stop affairs. 

[Clatter]

They should get rid of the rule that allows the teams to swap tyres if they damage them. Race on what you qualify, or start from the back if you want to swap them. And don't use the "it's dangerous" card, as they can stop at the end of lap one if they want to.

[tbones]

I've always thought it is a dumb rule, and never quite had a good answer to it if and when I was watching Qually with some causal viewer friend, when they ask, "why don't they just get new tires to start the race on."  They seem to think that either everyone should get new tires, or start the race on the tire you set a time with regardless of what session it happens to be in.

[Jellyfishcake]

I wonder if the people defending this rule (on the forum) only follow the top teams.

 

it's pretty clear the problem with the rule is how unfair it is on the 7-10 positions, which lately has mainly been Renault/Mclaren quite often this season those guys lost out because the strategy worked in favour of the teams outside of the top 10.

 

The problem with this vote is that the top 3 teams see no reason to chanage the rule, also it benefits their midfield ('B') teams with Toro Rosso, Haas, Racing Point etc quite often benefiting from being able to run the better strategy and none of these teams are interested in voting to change the rule, until next season when they might be the 4th best team and suffer for it...

[RA2]

http://gptoday.com/f..._remains_in_F1/

For once Abiteboul says something sensible. It’s utterly ridiculous that qualifying in the top ten is actually a disadvantage when you’re not in a Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull. Unfortunately those three only think about themselves and not the sport in general.

Then they should have voted for 2020 tyres as a revenge

[RA2]

http://gptoday.com/f..._remains_in_F1/

For once Abiteboul says something sensible. It’s utterly ridiculous that qualifying in the top ten is actually a disadvantage when you’re not in a Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull. Unfortunately those three only think about themselves and not the sport in general.

Then they should have voted for 2020 tyres as a revenge

[Lights]

Haven't heard anything about the Q2 tire rule in a while, except for Tost pointing out the unfairness in Russia. It still bothers me from time to time how much it affects the midfield battle.

 

In the original article of this thread it's said "The rule also remains in place for 2021" so it doesn't sound like it will change soon.

 

But hey it's F1 we're talking about. You never really know in a sport where rules sometimes don't mean a thing and are changed in-between practice sessions.

 

Anyone know more about this?

[SenorSjon]

They put it up for voting too late every year so a team can torpedo it again.

[tourister46a]

I looked at some data to see if it's really better to qualify 11th than 7th - 10th. Here are the points scored based on qualifying position in 2020 so far. It is NOT based on final starting position, because the tyres are determined by qualifying order

 

Position - Points

 

7 - 96

8 - 75

9 - 54

10 - 55 

11 - 51

12 - 36

 

The raw data shows that it is much better to qualify 7th or 8th than 11th. If it really were better to get knocked out in Q2, why does everyone fall over themselves on soft tyres to get into Q3? I am fine with the rule staying as is.

[Gambelli]

I looked at some data to see if it's really better to qualify 11th than 7th - 10th. Here are the points scored based on qualifying position in 2020 so far. It is NOT based on final starting position, because the tyres are determined by qualifying order

 

Position - Points

 

7 - 96

8 - 75

9 - 54

10 - 55 

11 - 51

12 - 36

 

The raw data shows that it is much better to qualify 7th or 8th than 11th. If it really were better to get knocked out in Q2, why does everyone fall over themselves on soft tyres to get into Q3? I am fine with the rule staying as is.

 

Thats really interesting, you'd think that 11 would at least yield more points that 9 and 10

[tourister46a]

Thats really interesting, you'd think that 11 would at least yield more points that 9 and 10

Gasly scored 25 points at Monza from 10th, so there's that. 

 

It would be interesting to do the same exercise for previous years. Will do it soon.

[Kalmake]

Gasly scored 25 points at Monza from 10th, so there's that. 

 

It would be interesting to do the same exercise for previous years. Will do it soon.

Also Verstappen 7 -> 2 in Hungary and Stroll 8 -> 2 in Monza.

[Jovanotti]

I don't think the rule is bad, the problem is the top 3 teams are so far ahead that they can qualify for Q3 on the harder tyre. If they manage to close up the field, the rule actually makes sense.

[Marklar]

I looked at some data to see if it's really better to qualify 11th than 7th - 10th. Here are the points scored based on qualifying position in 2020 so far. It is NOT based on final starting position, because the tyres are determined by qualifying order

Position - Points

7 - 96
8 - 75
9 - 54
10 - 55
11 - 51
12 - 36

The raw data shows that it is much better to qualify 7th or 8th than 11th. If it really were better to get knocked out in Q2, why does everyone fall over themselves on soft tyres to get into Q3? I am fine with the rule staying as is.

Data will be scewed by outliers with such a small sample though.

If you have a decent sample P7 will probably still be "better" than P11 of course, but the relative gain between say P6 and P7 will be bigger than between P10 and P11.

The rule has also become in recent times less problematic due to Pirellis being more durable, thus the starting tyre less important, in most cases at least.