75 replies to this topic

[DeKnyff]

The raw data shows that it is much better to qualify 7th or 8th than 11th. If it really were better to get knocked out in Q2, why does everyone fall over themselves on soft tyres to get into Q3? I am fine with the rule staying as is.

It's track specific. Depends very much on how difficult overtaking is.

[Lights]

I looked at some data to see if it's really better to qualify 11th than 7th - 10th. Here are the points scored based on qualifying position in 2020 so far. It is NOT based on final starting position, because the tyres are determined by qualifying order

 

Position - Points

 

7 - 96

8 - 75

9 - 54

10 - 55 

11 - 51

12 - 36

 

The raw data shows that it is much better to qualify 7th or 8th than 11th. If it really were better to get knocked out in Q2, why does everyone fall over themselves on soft tyres to get into Q3? I am fine with the rule staying as is.

 

This is actually really interesting. Naturally I disagree with the conclusion, but A for effort.

 

My main response to it is that at some tracks the tires behave really odd, or it doesn't seem to matter much what tire you're on. It's track and weather specific. Also, races that require more than 1 stop might lessen the effect.

Additionally, like Marklar said, it's a small sample size, and there's a lot more that can happen within that sample that influences the totals you calculated above. Some examples I could think of:

 

Austria
Q11 - Vettel -> spins on lap 31 - finishes P10.

 

Hungary

It was wet, so qualifying tires don't apply. But you have someone like Max going from Q7 to P2, skewing the comparison.

 

70th Anniversary GP

Q12 - Vettel -> spins on lap 1 - finishes P12.

 

Monza

The SC and red flag threw everything around more than tires ever could. Gasly Q10 to P1 and Stroll Q8 to P3, skewing the comparison.

 

Mugello

Crash mayhem threw the starting tire strategies out of the window, but RIC and PER from Q7 and Q8 happened to score well, skewing the comparison.

 

Eifel

Q11 - Vettel -> spins on lap 11 - finishes P11.

 

Imola

Q11 - Perez -> runs in P3 when faced with SC pitting dilemma, finishes P6. Before SC he was set for a podium leapfrogging everyone who Q4-Q10 on softs (GAS, RIC, ALB, LEC, KVY, NOR, SAI).

Q12 - Ocon -> had to pit early for technical reasons.

 

Anyway, hope that's enough to make a point. A lot can happen, thankfully, otherwise F1 would be quite boring if every race is so straight forward.

But to me it's clear that at many GP's it can be a significant advantage. But of course you still have to:

• make the decision to start on mediums (sometimes they don't because of the track or weather)
• not fall for early undercut attempts from behind
• not spin
• not have your advantage erased by a SC's/red flags

And OK, it's maybe not for everyone: I don't think Alfa, Williams and Haas drivers can really make use of it as they usually just lack race pace.

However, in relatively standard races, if you're starting P11/12 on mediums in a Renault, RP, Ferrari, or McLaren, and you tick off the list above, you're bound to end up ahead of most drivers that qualified Q7-Q10. I'm sure of it.

And it's only there to 'spice up the show' and it's simply unfair, so I would still like the rule to go.

Edited by Lights, 05 November 2020 - 11:30.

[Retrofly]

The Q2 thing just hands Merc and Red Bull a better strategy, like they need even more benefits.

[Lights]

The Q2 thing just hands Merc and Red Bull a better strategy, like they need even more benefits.

 

True, although ultimately that doesn't really matter as Merc and Max will end up 1-2-3 anyway.

 

The real benefit is for guys in midfield teams that fail to reach Q3, and that's potentially unfair for the guys in midfield teams that do well in qualifying.

[Viryfan]

This is actually really interesting. Naturally I disagree with the conclusion, but A for effort.

 

My main response to it is that at some tracks the tires behave really odd, or it doesn't seem to matter much what tire you're on. It's track and weather specific. Also, races that require more than 1 stop might lessen the effect.

Additionally, like Marklar said, it's a small sample size, and there's a lot more that can happen within that sample that influences the totals you calculated above. Some examples I could think of:

 

Austria
Q11 - Vettel -> spins on lap 31 - finishes P10.

 

Hungary

It was wet, so qualifying tires don't apply. But you have someone like Max going from Q7 to P2, skewing the comparison.

 

70th Anniversary GP

Q12 - Vettel -> spins on lap 1 - finishes P12.

 

Monza

The SC and red flag threw everything around more than tires ever could. Gasly Q10 to P1 and Stroll Q8 to P3, skewing the comparison.

 

Mugello

Crash mayhem threw the starting tire strategies out of the window, but RIC and PER from Q7 and Q8 happened to score well, skewing the comparison.

 

Eifel

Q11 - Vettel -> spins on lap 11 - finishes P11.

 

Imola

Q11 - Perez -> runs in P3 when faced with SC pitting dilemma, finishes P6. Before SC he was set for a podium leapfrogging everyone who Q4-Q10 on softs (GAS, RIC, ALB, LEC, KVY, NOR, SAI).

Q12 - Ocon -> Renault tried (and failed, lol) to cover Russell's early undercut. Instead Ocon could've just gone long like Perez and had without SC finished top 6 easily.

 

Anyway, hope that's enough to make a point. A lot can happen, thankfully, otherwise F1 would be quite boring if every race is so straight forward.

But to me it's clear that at many GP's it can be a significant advantage. But of course you still have to:

• make the decision to start on mediums (sometimes they don't because of the track or weather)
• not fall for early undercut attempts from behind
• not spin
• not have your advantage erased by a SC's/red flags

And OK, it's maybe not for everyone: I don't think Alfa, Williams and Haas drivers can really make use of it as they usually just lack race pace.

However, in relatively standard races, if you're starting P11/12 on mediums in a Renault, RP, Ferrari, or McLaren, and you tick off the list above, you're bound to end up ahead of most drivers that qualified Q7-Q10. I'm sure of it.

And it's only there to 'spice up the show' and it's simply unfair, so I would still like the rule to go.

 

 

Renault stopped Ocon early in Imola because of a tear off in the break duct which was overheating the break.

[Brawn BGP 001]

It was OK when there was only two dry compounds avalaible, but since three have been introduced there has been races where the quali tyre has been unracable and it becomes a disadvantage to qualify higher.

[ARTGP]

If the cars were more evenly matched (like anticipated in 2022), then this rule wouldn't be a problem. But since Merc and RB are far ahead, that's what makes the rule silly. Merc and RB should not be able to top the timesheets on medium tires while others are on softs.  They should only be able to set a laptime between P7-P10.  Then they have pressure to decide whether they want to start on the medium tire.  But that is a problem that should get better in 2022.

Edited by ARTGP, 05 November 2020 - 14:44.

[chhatra]

Keep the rule, just make it so only the top 4 or 5 start on their Q2 tires. 
 

Maybe they can just change the amount of cars going through i.e 8 out in Q1 and Q2 and have a top 4 shootout in Q3. 

[w1Y]

Why can't it be everyone starts on the tyres they did their fastest lap on in the qualy session that foxed their grid start.

Edited by w1Y, 05 November 2020 - 20:22.

[Kalmake]

Wny can't it be everyone starts on the tyres they did they did their fastest lap on in the qualy session that foxed their grid start.

We used to have that. It makes qualifying more of a race strategy game instead of being a simple speed competition. When would-be pole challengers choose harder compound, prestige of pole position is taken away. Cars expecting to be slowest usually just do a slow tyre prep lap instead of trying to go fast.

 

Similar garbage as qualifying with race starting fuel load was.

Edited by Kalmake, 05 November 2020 - 20:35.

[ANF]

Could somebody explain the following from the OP, that "it’s a regulation that was engineered by the top teams to protect them"? I don't get it.

[TomNokoe]

It's exacerbated by the three compound rule. At least in the past you would still take the pain later in the race. Sutil, Australia 2013 springs to mind.

Another reason why we need to go back to two compounds!

Edited by TomNokoe, 10 November 2020 - 14:46.

[Arundo]

Shows again that the FIA cant get **** done, they should just say as other mentioned already that this is the new rule for 2021. 

Its just beyond me that the teams have any saying in the rules in a sport.

[Augurk]

Just declare the rule mandated only for the top 2 WCC teams. That's what it's there for isn't it? 

[SenorSjon]

For them, it won't matter. They will have a pitstop leeway after 15-20 laps anyway.

[Marklar]

it appears that it got dropped from the 2022 regulations

(my fear is that it just means that we'll get more sprint races, but FYI)

[MikeTekRacing]

I actually like the rule since it provides some strategy options for the 1st stint. 
everybody starts on the same fuel.  make them start on the same tyres...then complain there is no overtaking?

 

this way at least you get cars running potentially different strategies and they could converge towards the end of the race

[Stephane]

Yeah, cause we never see guys starting on the same tyres haing different strategies...

[Myrvold]

it appears that it got dropped from the 2022 regulations

(my fear is that it just means that we'll get more sprint races, but FYI)

A new 2022 revision?
On my phone and at a hotel, so I cant be bothered to check, and it's OT here, buuut... Is the mandatory use of a rookie in two FP's still there?

[MikeTekRacing]

Yeah, cause we never see guys starting on the same tyres haing different strategies...

we rarely see that. While if starting on different tyres you are for sure on a different strategy (at least timing wise)

[PlatenGlass]

I actually like the rule since it provides some strategy options for the 1st stint. 
everybody starts on the same fuel.  make them start on the same tyres...then complain there is no overtaking?

 

this way at least you get cars running potentially different strategies and they could converge towards the end of the race

The problem is that the top teams (generally Mercedes, Red Bull) get to choose what tyres to use in Q2 to get through to Q3, whereas the rest tend to have to use the softs. So you might get different strategies, but it's just the frontrunners on the strategy of their choosing and the second half of the top 10 being forced onto a strategy. It's just a handicap for the second half of the top 10.

 

I mean, this has been said before up the thread anyway.

[Clatter]

The problem is that the top teams (generally Mercedes, Red Bull) get to choose what tyres to use in Q2 to get through to Q3, whereas the rest tend to have to use the softs. So you might get different strategies, but it's just the frontrunners on the strategy of their choosing and the second half of the top 10 being forced onto a strategy. It's just a handicap for the second half of the top 10.

 

I mean, this has been said before up the thread anyway.

 

This true, especially for the guy in 10th. He may get bragging rights having made it to Q3, but they are vulnerable to those behind on new tyres.

[Marklar]

A new 2022 revision?
On my phone and at a hotel, so I cant be bothered to check, and it's OT here, buuut... Is the mandatory use of a rookie in two FP's still there?

yeah still is

[Astandahl]

it appears that it got dropped from the 2022 regulations

(my fear is that it just means that we'll get more sprint races, but FYI)

Sprint races will be a procession. Hopefully the public backlash will be enough to scrap them for good or change the format (not using them as a quali for the real race for example).

 

Regarding the Q2 rule being scrapped from next year, i'm extremely happy.

It's an awful rule that rewards who doesn't qualify for Q3 and handicap who does.

[ANF]

A new 2022 revision?
On my phone and at a hotel, so I cant be bothered to check, and it's OT here, buuut... Is the mandatory use of a rookie in two FP's still there?

The Q2 tyre rule was actually crossed out in the first version of the 2022 sporting regulations published in May 2020. I guess none of us bothered to read the whole thing.

[Myrvold]

The Q2 tyre rule was actually crossed out in the first version of the 2022 sporting regulations published in May 2020. I guess none of us bothered to read the whole thing.

I usually dont bother to read it until they are actually going to use the rules.
I'm just a fan of the mandatory use of rookies