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Will WADA's doping ban affect Russian F1 drivers? [edited]


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#1 sportyskells

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 18:40

Today we found out that Russia is banned for all world sport bar the Euros so does this hinder any Russia F1 driver?



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 18:47

At worst they would race under FIA flag.

What's more interesting is is whether the Russian GP is in danger. They are banned from hosting world championship level events, after all.



#3 l12mcg

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 18:54

It depends on if the driver is cleared to compete it will have to be done on an individual basis, so it’ll be up to the FIA for each driver.

One would imagine any driver who already has a super licence would be fine, and a new one applying would be ok as long as they’ve got a proper doping test record.

But they won’t be standing under a Russian flag on a podium or having the Russian anthem played if they win.

The Russian GP should probably be fine, as it isn’t a championship in and of itself - which is what they are banned from hosting. But I imagine it’ll be a court case.

#4 noikeee

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:00

The Sochi/Black Sea GP!

#5 LucaP

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:04

Hopefully!

#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:08

How much say to WADA actually have in whether a sporting event can be hosted or not? Do they actually have the legal right to ban entire nations from various competitions or is it a case of governing bodies will follow their advice?

 

Because I'd imagine that this will depend on the relationship between the FIA and WADA as much as anything. The news reports I've read, for example, say how FIFA is talking to WADA to determine how this affects football. So surely the FIA will be talking to WADA in the same capacity.



#7 Clatter

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:15

Today we found out that Russia is banned for all world sport bar the Euros so does this hinder any Russia F1 driver?

Shouldn't hinder them at all. Just like any other Russian athlete can still compete as long as they can show they are untainted. Most that would happen is their national anthem would not be played

#8 Risil

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:36

Kvyat will presumably have to prove to WADA that he hasn't benefitted from Russia's doping programme. Not sure how that works but it'll be the same for other Russian athletes.

#9 Beri

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:37

World championship or Olympic events are banned for instance. European Championship football is a "regional event" which is still allowed. The FIA Formula One World Championship is not because, well, the name says a lot. Such event is, most likely, to be banned.

Edited by Beri, 09 December 2019 - 19:38.


#10 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:38

Kvyat will presumably have to prove to WADA that he hasn't benefitted from Russia's doping programme. Not sure how that works but it'll be the same for other Russian athletes.

 

But can WADA stop him from driving or would it be up to the FIA to honour the ban themselves if they choose?

 

Edit: Though I assume he's clean and either way would compete under something neutral if he had to.



#11 Risil

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:48

That's a good question. The FIA is signed up to WADA so they might suffer a loss of credibility if they chose not to enforce the doping code, and potentially leave themselves open to legal action if a driver won or caused a serious accident while under the influence.

I think we might see Kvyat competing under the FIA flag, or something similar. I doubt he was involved in the Russian state doping programme.

#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:51

That's a good question. The FIA is signed up to WADA so they might suffer a loss of credibility if they chose not to enforce the doping code, and potentially leave themselves open to legal action if a driver won or caused a serious accident while under the influence.

I think we might see Kvyat competing under the FIA flag, or something similar.

 

That's the bit I was after. Cheers.

 

Hopefully Kvyat is clean and can continue to compete as long as Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri need him. The Red Bull driver programme seems a little short on potential replacements anyway.

 

The Russian Grand Prix is in more danger, I'd have thought.



#13 noriaki

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 20:02

At worst they would race under FIA flag.

What's more interesting is is whether the Russian GP is in danger. They are banned from hosting world championship level events, after all.


Has anybody anywhere raced under a FIA flag for any reason?

#14 ANF

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 20:28

World championship or Olympic events are banned for instance. European Championship football is a "regional event" which is still allowed. The FIA Formula One World Championship is not because, well, the name says a lot. Such event is, most likely, to be banned.

If the FIA Formula One World Championship turns out to be among the "World Championships organized or sanctioned by any Signatory", it seems that "Russian Government officials/representatives may not participate in or attend any ... events held in the Four-Year Period". https://www.wada-ama...-non-compliance

#15 maximilian

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 20:29

Drivers seem to race under different flags/licenses all the time, right?  Frequently even change that around. Would it be a stretch to assume that Russian drivers could just use another country's license to compete with?



#16 Kalmake

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 20:51

Drivers seem to race under different flags/licenses all the time, right?  Frequently even change that around. Would it be a stretch to assume that Russian drivers could just use another country's license to compete with?

You have to be a citizen of the country to be able to get a licence via a club in that country. Only exception is if your own country doesn't have a FIA member club.



#17 Sterzo

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 21:05

My understanding of this ruling is that (a) the Grand Prix is most likely to be cancelled (though there is a possible legal way out of that) and (b) Russian drivers should be unaffected so long as they are not personally implicated in drug taking.

 

As I see it, Kvyat doesn't compete as a representative of Russia, i.e. he's not part of a Russian team, so as an individual he'll have to be drug tested but so long as he's clean, and has no history, then he's fine.

 

Here's the ruling:

https://www.wada-ama...-non-compliance

 

And these are the relevant paragraphs but beware, I have edited the last one:

  • Russian Government officials/representatives may not participate in or attend any of the following events held in the Four-Year Period: (a) the Youth Olympic Games (summer and winter); (b) the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (summer and winter); © any other event organized by a Major Event Organisation; and (d) any World Championships organized or sanctioned by any Signatory (together, the Major Events).
  • Russia may not host in the Four-Year Period or bid for or be granted in the Four-Year Period, the right to host (whether during or after the Four-Year Period) any editions of the Major Events.
  • Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four-Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so. In addition, Russia may not bid for the right to host the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, irrespective of whether the bidding takes place during or after the Four-Year Period.
  • Russia’s flag may not be flown at any Major Event staged in the Four-Year Period.
  • Neither the President, the Secretary-General, the CEO, nor any member of the Executive Board/Governing Board of either the Russian Olympic Committee or the Russian Paralympic Committee may participate in or attend any Major Event staged in the Four-Year Period.
  • Russian athletes and their support personnel may only participate in Major Events staged in the Four-Year Period where they are able to demonstrate that they are not implicated in any way by the non-compliance with conditions including (without limitation) that they are not mentioned in incriminating circumstances in the McLaren reports, there a


#18 jonpollak

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 21:29

I feel sorry for genuine clean Russian Champions like
Mariya Lasitskene
Janny Medvedeva
Marge Mamun.

Not to mention the Gymnastics team...
All these athletes are clean.

9-ECFAB12-11-F3-4582-B5-C1-D1690-C17-C04

Don’t care about the racing implications...
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 09 December 2019 - 23:30.


#19 Spillage

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 21:45

Kvyat will presumably have to prove to WADA that he hasn't benefitted from Russia's doping programme. Not sure how that works but it'll be the same for other Russian athletes.

Shouldn't be too hard - I think it's as simple as having not personally failed any tests, which he surely hasn't. So he should be fine to race, but not under the Russian flag and if he does somehow win a GP the Russian anthem would not be played.

Dunno whether the Russian GP will go ahead though. I hope not if I'm honest, not a big fan of Sochi.

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#20 maximilian

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 22:08

I feel sorry for genuine clean Russian Champions like
Mariya Lasitskene
Janny Medvedeva
Maggie Mamun.

Not to mention the Gymnastics team...
All these athletes are clean.

Don’t care about the racing implications...
Jp

 

It may have more far-reaching implications that could well affect drivers and teams that are not Russian, like any combo that benefits from SMP involvement, Mazepin involvement, or other companies like LUKoil and Gazprom sponsoring things...



#21 Clatter

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 23:06

<p>

My understanding of this ruling is that (a) the Grand Prix is most likely to be cancelled (though there is a possible legal way out of that) and (b) Russian drivers should be unaffected so long as they are not personally implicated in drug taking.

As I see it, Kvyat doesn't compete as a representative of Russia, i.e. he's not part of a Russian team, so as an individual he'll have to be drug tested but so long as he's clean, and has no history, then he's fine.

Here's the ruling:
https://www.wada-ama...-non-compliance

And these are the relevant paragraphs but beware, I have edited the last one:

  • Russian Government officials/representatives may not participate in or attend any of the following events held in the Four-Year Period: (a) the Youth Olympic Games (summer and winter); (b) the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (summer and winter); © any other event organized by a Major Event Organisation; and (d) any World Championships organized or sanctioned by any Signatory (together, the Major Events).
  • Russia may not host in the Four-Year Period or bid for or be granted in the Four-Year Period, the right to host (whether during or after the Four-Year Period) any editions of the Major Events.
  • Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four-Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so. In addition, Russia may not bid for the right to host the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, irrespective of whether the bidding takes place during or after the Four-Year Period.
  • Russia’s flag may not be flown at any Major Event staged in the Four-Year Period.
  • Neither the President, the Secretary-General, the CEO, nor any member of the Executive Board/Governing Board of either the Russian Olympic Committee or the Russian Paralympic Committee may participate in or attend any Major Event staged in the Four-Year Period.
  • Russian athletes and their support personnel may only participate in Major Events staged in the Four-Year Period where they are able to demonstrate that they are not implicated in any way by the non-compliance with conditions including (without limitation) that they are not mentioned in incriminating circumstances in the McLaren reports, there a

re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so.

Well there's the get out, FIA just need to say it's not possible to move the race.

#22 Bleu

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 04:59

As far the events go, 2020 race may be tougher to remove but for later years it's easier as the calendar has not been published. OK, nine and half months to go - I'm not sure if they had started selling tickets for the event and so on.

 

It would be much more different if the event was in April-May like it was in 2016 and 2017.


Edited by Bleu, 10 December 2019 - 05:01.


#23 absinthedude

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 11:00

What I am reading here and elsewhere is that the FIA is a WADA signatory, and as such is bound by the recent ruling. 

 

Daniil Kvyat should be fine to compete as long as he passes drugs testing in the future. He has no prior record of failed tests, as we'd know about this already. I doubt that doping of racing drivers was part of Russia's sports drugs programme.

 

The same would apply to any future Russian grand prix drivers, they'd be fine if they have no prior history of doping offences and if they pass any future tests. 

 

Similar conditions apply to any driver coaches/driver support personnel. They must demonstrate that they've not been involved in past doping offences, nor current or future. 

 

The Russian flag may not be raised if Kvyat or another Russian driver finishes on the podium

 

The Russian Grand Prix is potentially at risk but there is a workaround whereby the FIA claims it cannot physically move the track therefore the race continues. It would be up to the FIA to decide if they wish to take this route, and WADA to decide if that is reasonable. My own personal opinion is that I hope the race is scrapped mostly because the track is crap and I don't think F1 does itself any favours racing in Russia at this point in time.

 

I don't see anything that prevents Russian sponsors from being involved. It's not like Gazprom manufacture performance enhancing drugs or as far as we know insist on their sponsees taking such drugs in return for their sponsorship. 

 

If a Russian team tries to enter, they can't do so under the Russian flag during the four years and the board would have to demonstrate that they've not been involved in doping offences.



#24 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 11:22

Well there's the get out, FIA just need to say it's not possible to move the race.

Surely that clause applies to competitions that are staged entirely within Russia itself, that would not be able to go ahead because of this, rather than a multi country competition like F1 is.

The F1 championship wouldn't be drastically altered with the cancellation of Sochi.

I can envisage Sochi being cancelled and not replaced. It will be a bit of a reprieve for the teams surely now there will only be 21 events (only!).

#25 Fastcake

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 11:37

Interesting, I didn’t initially think this could affect the Russian Grand Prix. But it seems quite clear: Russia is barred from hosting world championship events and the FIA, as a signatory of the WADA code, cannot hold its world championships events in Russia. There is a provision to allow existing events to continue under certain circumstances, but I would interpret this as applying to sports with one singular event, to be held over the next few months where it’s impossible to find a new host with that short notice. The Russian GP is 1 of 22 events, and losing one race won’t prevent the Formula One season going ahead. It’s also not until September anyway - enough time to at least try and find a replacement GP.

#26 Spillage

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 11:45

I don't see why a replacement couldn't be found. Grands Prix have been replaced before. Given the congestion of next year's calendar the FIA may prefer to cancel the event altogether, but I don't see how they can argue that it has to go ahead in Sochi.

#27 Retrofly

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 11:54

European Grand prix at Brands Hatch :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:



#28 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:05

European Grand prix at Brands Hatch :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

That'd be awesome, but I'd rather have it at Imola, to be quite honest, it will offer a lot more overtaking opportunities at least. And the circuit is as challenging as Brands Hatch. 



#29 Kalmake

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:05

 https://www.goal.com...1515zbhx7mogvo7

However, Taylor acknowledged each sport would be assessed on a "case-by-case basis"

 

 

Don't get too exited. Sochi isn't getting banned.



#30 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:13

Surely that clause applies to competitions that are staged entirely within Russia itself, that would not be able to go ahead because of this, rather than a multi country competition like F1 is.

The F1 championship wouldn't be drastically altered with the cancellation of Sochi.

I can envisage Sochi being cancelled and not replaced. It will be a bit of a reprieve for the teams surely now there will only be 21 events (only!).

 


I can see the GP going on as normal.

#31 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:15

Interesting, I didn’t initially think this could affect the Russian Grand Prix. But it seems quite clear: Russia is barred from hosting world championship events and the FIA, as a signatory of the WADA code, cannot hold its world championships events in Russia. There is a provision to allow existing events to continue under certain circumstances, but I would interpret this as applying to sports with one singular event, to be held over the next few months where it’s impossible to find a new host with that short notice. The Russian GP is 1 of 22 events, and losing one race won’t prevent the Formula One season going ahead. It’s also not until September anyway - enough time to at least try and find a replacement GP.

 


This the problem when things are left to interpretation. It can mean many things to different people.

#32 CSF

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:21

Oh no. What will we do without the excitement of the Russian Grand Prix. I don't think I can take it. 

 

No more Vlad shaking the hands of the winner, and having a translated conversation. Oh no. How will I cope.



#33 P123

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:24

Perhaps as a 'worst case' they could run it as a non-championship event (and then F1 can experiment with the schedule..). There is plenty of cash for FOM and face saving for the Russians to ensure it goes ahead somehow.

#34 maximilian

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:31

Oh no. What will we do without the excitement of the Russian Grand Prix. I don't think I can take it. 

 

No more Vlad shaking the hands of the winner, and having a translated conversation. Oh no. How will I cope.

 

FWIW, Putin is fluent in English and German.   ;)



#35 CSF

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:31

FWIW, Putin is fluent in English and German.   ;)

 

A KGB man that knows other languages but pretends he doesn't?? Never! 



#36 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:32

From what I've read I think it should rightly be cancelled, but I'm worried that they'll be able to interpret the ban in a way to keep the race.



#37 Jazza

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 12:40

The way tracks are organised by the FIA and FOM may give enough wiggle room to keep it.

#38 BRG

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 17:53

I have long suspected that the FIA have never taken doping seriously and have just gone through the motions of compliance.  So I think they will fudge this and that there will be zero affect on F1 or motor sport as a whole.  We will be by the Black Sea again in 2020



#39 VinnyLancia

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 18:44

I guess the FIA could take the stance of not awarding championship points for the Russian GP.



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#40 MikeV1987

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 19:04

Can't see anything happening to the GP. Highly doubt Kvyat will be adversely affected either.



#41 loki

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 19:10

World championship or Olympic events are banned for instance. European Championship football is a "regional event" which is still allowed. The FIA Formula One World Championship is not because, well, the name says a lot. Such event is, most likely, to be banned.

The agreement is a contractual agreement and not binding law.  Other than attempting to sue the FIA the WADA have no legal recourse.  The event contract is between FOM and the GP promoter.  The ruling states that Russia as a participating entity is not allowed.  It specifically allows non tainted athletes to participate but not representing Russia.  As Russia doesn’t field a national team as they do in the Olympics or World Cup it’s not going to be an issue. 

 

There will be a Russian GP.



#42 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 19:17

The agreement is a contractual agreement and not binding law.  Other than attempting to sue the FIA the WADA have no legal recourse.  The event contract is between FOM and the GP promoter.  The ruling states that Russia as a participating entity is not allowed.  It specifically allows non tainted athletes to participate but not representing Russia.  As Russia doesn’t field a national team as they do in the Olympics or World Cup it’s not going to be an issue. 

 

There will be a Russian GP.

 

Even though the ban extends to world championship events?

 

I'm worried that you're right and the race will go ahead, but it should be cancelled if this ban is to be properly enforced.



#43 jjcale

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 20:27

Even though the ban extends to world championship events?

 

I'm worried that you're right and the race will go ahead, but it should be cancelled if this ban is to be properly enforced.

 

What sort of fan wants to see a race cancelled.... esp when you know full well that F1 has F--- all to do with anything. 

 

Were you ever "worried" that the race in Bahrain might not go ahead? or do you only worry about BS political stunts....  

 

I cant wait for this current wave of anti-Russia hysteria to pass.... I am old enough to remember the cold war, this is actually worse.... and more dangerous....

 

If we keep F--king with these people one day they are going to respond ... and they have the means to do so ... this isnt Iran or Korea that we can safely dick around knowing that they cant do anything to us in return. 

 

I know F1 has american owners now (and that many of the teams are based in the UK - the homeland of anti russia sentiment) but I hope the F1 community will have enough sense to give this BS a swerve and just ignore it on the basis that F1 doesnt do politics.



#44 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 21:10

What sort of fan wants to see a race cancelled.... esp when you know full well that F1 has F--- all to do with anything. 

 

Were you ever "worried" that the race in Bahrain might not go ahead? or do you only worry about BS political stunts....  

 

I cant wait for this current wave of anti-Russia hysteria to pass.... I am old enough to remember the cold war, this is actually worse.... and more dangerous....

 

If we keep F--king with these people one day they are going to respond ... and they have the means to do so ... this isnt Iran or Korea that we can safely dick around knowing that they cant do anything to us in return. 

 

I know F1 has american owners now (and that many of the teams are based in the UK - the homeland of anti russia sentiment) but I hope the F1 community will have enough sense to give this BS a swerve and just ignore it on the basis that F1 doesnt do politics.

 


UK is the homeland of anti russian sentiment? Since when?

#45 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 21:11

What sort of fan wants to see a race cancelled.... esp when you know full well that F1 has F--- all to do with anything. 

 

Were you ever "worried" that the race in Bahrain might not go ahead? or do you only worry about BS political stunts....  

 

I cant wait for this current wave of anti-Russia hysteria to pass.... I am old enough to remember the cold war, this is actually worse.... and more dangerous....

 

If we keep F--king with these people one day they are going to respond ... and they have the means to do so ... this isnt Iran or Korea that we can safely dick around knowing that they cant do anything to us in return. 

 

I know F1 has american owners now (and that many of the teams are based in the UK - the homeland of anti russia sentiment) but I hope the F1 community will have enough sense to give this BS a swerve and just ignore it on the basis that F1 doesnt do politics.

 

The sort of fan who values fair play and sportsmanship above getting a selfish fix of their sport. The sort of fan that things a governing body should take responsibility for the agreements it makes with agencies for ensuring fair play in sport.

 

I can't remember how I felt about the Bahrain race going ahead but I suspect that I was more worried about the safety of the F1 community rather than anything else. Feel free to search for my posts on the subject, but what does it matter because a person's outlook can change a lot over the best part of a decade.

 

This isn't about anti-Russian sentiment. It's about huge breach of sporting principles coming from Russia. If F1 is to remain as apolitical as possible, then I think it should respect the WADA ban. Defying the ban to continue racing in the face of what's going on is a much stronger political statement.

 

I doubt the UK is the home of anti-Russian sentiment, but I think you might forgive us after what the Russians did in Salisbury recently.



#46 jonpollak

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 22:51

It’s fashionable to pour derision on the Russians in your country...
Unlike mine.
Jp

#47 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 23:44

It’s fashionable to pour derision on the Russians in your country...
Unlike mine.
Jp

 


I might be missing out on this. Do you have some examples of what you mean?

#48 Marklar

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 23:52

I dont have anything against Russia at all, but Sochi is a super dull track and we could do with less races. And that's before considering this case that us about doping. So yes, F1 fans can be in support of canceling F1 races without hating on a country or some bs like that

#49 Danyy

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 00:00

Replace it with the German Gp. Better track and no politics.

#50 noikeee

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 00:24

I cant wait for this current wave of anti-Russia hysteria to pass.... I am old enough to remember the cold war, this is actually worse.... and more dangerous....


I would love for you to explain this one on Paddock Club. The current alleged Anti-Russian sentiment is more dangerous than a war that almost killed everyone on this planet on a exchange of dozens of nuclear weapons, and did lead to countless proxy hot wars all over the world?