Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Will WADA's doping ban affect Russian F1 drivers? [edited]


  • Please log in to reply
173 replies to this topic

#51 SB

SB
  • Member

  • 2,210 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 11 December 2019 - 02:54

I don't think the race will be cancelled, although I have no love with the track itself.

 

As always the teams / FOM / Russian government will be clever enough to find a loophole. The worse case I guess the race might be just renamed to the European GP at Sochi



Advertisement

#52 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 21,256 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 December 2019 - 03:04

I am not sure Liberty will like to see themselves 'breaking' a ban on sport in Russia, if the story of F1 and Russia get traction in the US, I will imagine the race being called, this does not have to be now, it can right up to week before it is supposed so be run.

 

:cool:



#53 Radoye

Radoye
  • Member

  • 2,932 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 11 December 2019 - 03:29

I would love for you to explain this one on Paddock Club. The current alleged Anti-Russian sentiment is more dangerous than a war that almost killed everyone on this planet on a exchange of dozens of nuclear weapons, and did lead to countless proxy hot wars all over the world?

I'm not privy to the Paddock Club and would not want to stray too far off topic, but what makes you believe global nuclear annihilation is actually off the table today? If anything, it's even more possible today than 30-40 years ago - the mechanisms that kept peace between the superpowers back then are now all but dismantled on one hand and on the other tosay Russia's capabilities for a conventional response in case of war are pretty much non-existent leaving them with only one available response if pushed into a corner - the nuclear one.

 

So, a shorter fuse, less possibilities to put it out once lit, and yet for some reason we insist poking them with a stick. Really, what could go wrong?



#54 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 36,228 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 December 2019 - 07:25

I am not sure Liberty will like to see themselves 'breaking' a ban on sport in Russia, if the story of F1 and Russia get traction in the US, I will imagine the race being called, this does not have to be now, it can right up to week before it is supposed so be run.

:cool:

That's true, but hardly fair on the fans that have paid to attend the GP.

#55 JavierDeVivre

JavierDeVivre
  • Member

  • 1,156 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 11 December 2019 - 08:49

It’s fashionable to pour derision on the Russians in your country...
Unlike mine.
Jp

Yeah, it's not fashionable to blame Russia for a political loss in your Country (I'm assuming you're American from a few of your posts I have seen), not at all...

I now live in the UK and they seem far less obsessesed with Russia than some Americans are.

P.S. Jon, this is not meant to be attacking, although with my poor English it might come accross that way. It is not intended.

#56 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 December 2019 - 08:56

You guys need to read Article 20, specifically 20.3.11.  It pertains specifically to sporting federations that are signatories to the code.  That federation would be the FIA.  Under the code they would be unable to accept a bid from a non compliant country.  However the FIA doesn’t promote or negotiate the events.  They can’t as that provision was separated under EU fair trade rules which do have the force of law.   WADA code is an entirely voluntary agreement.  The event has not been “bid”, it’s been awarded as a multi year contract.  But not to the FIA.



#57 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,137 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:30

Part of the ruling says:

“Russia may not host in the Four-Year Period or bid for or be granted in the Four-Year Period, the right to host (whether during or after the Four-Year Period) any editions of the Major Events.

“Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four-Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so.”


https://www.wada-ama...-non-compliance

It says may not host or bid. So as I read that the FIA should not allow the event to be hosted. Even though FOM do the deals for the races, they’re still FIA sanctioned events.



#58 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 13,676 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:33

What sort of fan wants to see a race cancelled.... esp when you know full well that F1 has F--- all to do with anything. 

 

Were you ever "worried" that the race in Bahrain might not go ahead? or do you only worry about BS political stunts....  

 

I cant wait for this current wave of anti-Russia hysteria to pass.... I am old enough to remember the cold war, this is actually worse.... and more dangerous....

 

If we keep F--king with these people one day they are going to respond ... and they have the means to do so ... this isnt Iran or Korea that we can safely dick around knowing that they cant do anything to us in return. 

 

I know F1 has american owners now (and that many of the teams are based in the UK - the homeland of anti russia sentiment) but I hope the F1 community will have enough sense to give this BS a swerve and just ignore it on the basis that F1 doesnt do politics.

So you'd be ok with a Russian F1 team running a car with a 10% larger turbo than allowed, on the basis that if they were penalised this would be "political", "anti-Russian" and they might get a bit nasty?  :stoned:



#59 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 13,676 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:39

The sort of fan who values fair play and sportsmanship above getting a selfish fix of their sport. The sort of fan that things a governing body should take responsibility for the agreements it makes with agencies for ensuring fair play in sport.

 

I can't remember how I felt about the Bahrain race going ahead but I suspect that I was more worried about the safety of the F1 community rather than anything else. Feel free to search for my posts on the subject, but what does it matter because a person's outlook can change a lot over the best part of a decade.

 

This isn't about anti-Russian sentiment. It's about huge breach of sporting principles coming from Russia. If F1 is to remain as apolitical as possible, then I think it should respect the WADA ban. Defying the ban to continue racing in the face of what's going on is a much stronger political statement.

 

I doubt the UK is the home of anti-Russian sentiment, but I think you might forgive us after what the Russians did in Salisbury recently.

I personally find it difficult to agree that a country shouldn't host a GP on human-rights grounds (except in exceptional circumstances) because it opens a rather large can of worms... especially where history is concerned. 

However, this is about sporting integrity. It doesn't matter that F1 is seemingly unaffected by Russian state sponsored cheating, it's a global issue and F1 should stand shoulder to shoulder with other sports to stamp it out. 



Advertisement

#60 pitlanepalpatine

pitlanepalpatine
  • Member

  • 1,529 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:41

TL:DR If the Russian arm of WADA is not willing to follow the guidelines for enforcement then they should be shut down, however, it's WADA's responsibility to provide viable alternatives to Russian atheletes to prove compliance with anti-doping rules.

 

Seems the things a bit more complicated since apparantly all they've done is declared Rusada non-compliant with their policies while other athletes want to ban all russian athletes outright, good way to clear out competition after all.

 

"WADA Executive Committee unanimously endorses four-year period of non-compliance for the Russian Anti-Doping Agency" 

 

So the outcome of this would be entirely dependent on how reliant the FIA is on WADA and it's regional subsidiaries for controls and whether WADA will offer alternatives to Rusada for testing to russian athletes.

 

There's a fundamental issue here with the stakeholder disparity in the way this punishment is being handed out and it only highlights what a joke WADA testing has been in various sports over the last decades, cycling being a rather prominent one.

 

While there's plenty of media brownie points for the whole "boo the russians" element of this, anyone who actually believes this is a fundamental step in fighting doping in sport is deluding themselves.

 

As long as ahtletes have a sense of entitlement when it comes to being the most competitive you'll have people who fall of the cliff and break the rules and as long as there's huge money in sport there will be willing facilitators in other sectors. Guilt by association was something the Nazi's were very fond of but it's always good to see how quick it can make a comeback when it fits the political Zeitgeist.  :rolleyes:



#61 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 13,676 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:41

I might be missing out on this. Do you have some examples of what you mean?

Possible sarcasm alert.



#62 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,137 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:45

Christ, page 2 and Godwin’s Law has already been invoked.

#63 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 36,228 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:56

Possible sarcasm alert.

In that case I completely missed it.

#64 absinthedude

absinthedude
  • Member

  • 997 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 11 December 2019 - 10:48

I personally find it difficult to agree that a country shouldn't host a GP on human-rights grounds (except in exceptional circumstances) because it opens a rather large can of worms... especially where history is concerned. 

However, this is about sporting integrity. It doesn't matter that F1 is seemingly unaffected by Russian state sponsored cheating, it's a global issue and F1 should stand shoulder to shoulder with other sports to stamp it out. 

 

I think there are cases where international sports should think very carefully before visiting certain locations. And it's nothing to do with history but to do with what's going on now, and what the local government/regimes are doing about it.

 

For example, it was right for international sport to boycott South Africa over Apartheid in the 80s. F1 was one of the last major sports to stop going there. It was also right to go back in 1992 after the government in South Africa had made really serious efforts to put things right. The fact that South Africa once practised Apartheid is of no consequence to international sport in 2019. 

 

I would hope that F1 looked very carefully before setting foot in such countries as Saudi Arabia. I'm not entirely comfortable with China (despite the track being pretty good) and Bahrain (despite some good races there). Russia a few years ago would have been OK, but currently and for the foreseeable future it is run by a man who has ordered the deaths of citizens in other countries, invaded neighbours, suppressed his own people, overseen a systematic scheme whereby Russian athletes were cheating in international competitions.... etc. It's highly questionable as to whether F1 should visit Russia at this time. 

 

No country is perfect, but there are often several examples at any given time of places international sport should not go.

 

As for Britain being the home of anti-Russian sentiment....I've lived in the UK and the US....been married to two Americans....and I have never witnessed anti-Russian sentiment in the UK to the extent that it exists in the USA. Sure, we're angry over Salisbury poisoning and miffed over rich Russians buying whole streets of houses in London and leaving them empty while homeless people sleep on the streets....but it doesn't extend to wholesale disdain for Russian people, culture, history, music, architecture etc....there was even an official British Communist party during the cold war.....I am plenty old enough to remember the cold war and it was far more tense than this. I think we all know that when Putin is finally toppled, things will change in Russia. In 1982 we knew that whoever succeeded Brezhnev would be "more of the same".



#65 Kalmake

Kalmake
  • Member

  • 3,580 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:02

A crazy concept would be holding events without funding and pr-presence from the host country's government. That would be apolitical like Bernie liked to claim F1 to be.



#66 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 29,346 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 11 December 2019 - 13:42

Let's not have a broad discussion here about Russia's reputation in the world. Please stick to its sports and doping violations.

#67 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 11 December 2019 - 13:42

You guys need to read Article 20, specifically 20.3.11.  It pertains specifically to sporting federations that are signatories to the code.  That federation would be the FIA.  Under the code they would be unable to accept a bid from a non compliant country.  However the FIA doesn’t promote or negotiate the events.  They can’t as that provision was separated under EU fair trade rules which do have the force of law.   WADA code is an entirely voluntary agreement.  The event has not been “bid”, it’s been awarded as a multi year contract.  But not to the FIA.

 

Nowadays the FIA is a very different beast under Todt from what it was during the Mosley Reign of Terror. A dozen years ago Mosley would have contrived whatever absurd pretext was necessary to enforce his own power or to grow Bernie's net worth. If that meant defying public opinion, so was it.

In contrast, Todt seems obsessed with image, legacy, and being politically correct. He will want to avoid looking like he is being soft on a major conspiracy to cheat that has been almost universally condemned. As long as the WADA ban is in place, Todt will try to find a way to avoid any connection between the FIA and racing in Russia.

He is likely to be supported by the Commercial Rights Holder. When CVC was the holder, it seemed that they would have done anything for another dollar. Being a high-profile American company, Liberty does not share CVC's indifference to everything but money. John Malone is a Republican and one would expect him not to ignore, indeed defy, an international sanction against America's long-time adversary.

Whether the race promoter could sue FOM on the basis that FOM the company is contractually bound to hold "a Grand Prix" race there might be another matter. And if FOM were found to be obliged to hold some sort of race there, what would the F1 teams, governed by the FIA but contractually bound to FOM, do? What do you reckon?



#68 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 29,346 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 11 December 2019 - 14:12

Posts removed. Please consider the Paddock Club if you have general thoughts about Russia.

Let's not have a broad discussion here about Russia's reputation in the world. Please stick to its sports and doping violations.



#69 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,575 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 December 2019 - 14:36

You guys need to read Article 20, specifically 20.3.11. It pertains specifically to sporting federations that are signatories to the code. That federation would be the FIA. Under the code they would be unable to accept a bid from a non compliant country. However the FIA doesn’t promote or negotiate the events. They can’t as that provision was separated under EU fair trade rules which do have the force of law. WADA code is an entirely voluntary agreement. The event has not been “bid”, it’s been awarded as a multi year contract. But not to the FIA.


FOM only act under licence from the FIA, which retains ultimate responsibility for the calendar. We know the FIA can remove Grands Prix which don’t meet its requirements on licensing or safety grounds, and as anti-doping is also an FIA responsibility, it would follow they can also remove events to be compliant with the anti-doping code. It’s complicated I think by the fact the FIA only signed up to WADA in 2010, long after the current contracts were made, that doping has been a peripheral issue at best in motorsport, and that barring a whole nation from hosting events for doping violations is new ground in world sport.

#70 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,137 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 December 2019 - 17:09

Nowadays the FIA is a very different beast under Todt from what it was during the Mosley Reign of Terror. A dozen years ago Mosley would have contrived whatever absurd pretext was necessary to enforce his own power or to grow Bernie's net worth. If that meant defying public opinion, so was it.

In contrast, Todt seems obsessed with image, legacy, and being politically correct. He will want to avoid looking like he is being soft on a major conspiracy to cheat that has been almost universally condemned. As long as the WADA ban is in place, Todt will try to find a way to avoid any connection between the FIA and racing in Russia.

He is likely to be supported by the Commercial Rights Holder. When CVC was the holder, it seemed that they would have done anything for another dollar. Being a high-profile American company, Liberty does not share CVC's indifference to everything but money. John Malone is a Republican and one would expect him not to ignore, indeed defy, an international sanction against America's long-time adversary.

Whether the race promoter could sue FOM on the basis that FOM the company is contractually bound to hold "a Grand Prix" race there might be another matter. And if FOM were found to be obliged to hold some sort of race there, what would the F1 teams, governed by the FIA but contractually bound to FOM, do? What do you reckon?

 

With what you describe I could see this heading the way of the 1981 South African Grand Prix. A rogue Grand Prix with no FIA sanction.



#71 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 36,228 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 December 2019 - 17:11

FOM only act under licence from the FIA, which retains ultimate responsibility for the calendar. We know the FIA can remove Grands Prix which don’t meet its requirements on licensing or safety grounds, and as anti-doping is also an FIA responsibility, it would follow they can also remove events to be compliant with the anti-doping code. It’s complicated I think by the fact the FIA only signed up to WADA in 2010, long after the current contracts were made, that doping has been a peripheral issue at best in motorsport, and that barring a whole nation from hosting events for doping violations is new ground in world sport.

 


Long after what contracts were made? Russia debuted in 2014, the decision to award them the race was in 2010, but that doesn't mean the contract was signed in 2010. Certainly not long after FIA joined WADA. There are other circuits where the contracts have been renewed since 2010 as well.

#72 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,575 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 December 2019 - 19:22


Long after what contracts were made? Russia debuted in 2014, the decision to award them the race was in 2010, but that doesn't mean the contract was signed in 2010. Certainly not long after FIA joined WADA. There are other circuits where the contracts have been renewed since 2010 as well.


I was talking about the 100-year agreement made at the end of the 90s, not the race contracts. Apologies for the confusion. I don’t know if there’s any provision in that agreement that explicitly covers something like this, though since this was years before the FIA signed up to the code or WADA even existed (I think) that’s unlikely.

#73 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 11 December 2019 - 19:59

I was talking about the 100-year agreement made at the end of the 90s, not the race contracts. Apologies for the confusion. I don’t know if there’s any provision in that agreement that explicitly covers something like this, though since this was years before the FIA signed up to the code or WADA even existed (I think) that’s unlikely.

The 100-year sham deal between the FIA and FOM was signed in 2001. It gave FOM (or some offshore permutation of it) exclusively the commercial rights to F1. It did not oblige the teams, promoters or tracks, who have separate agreements with FOM and FIA, to do anything.

 

The current (7th) Concorde Agreement was signed in 2013 by all of the teams, FOM and FIA. I would expect that contract, and the specific contract amongst Sochi, FIA and FOM, to have more bearing on this issue than the commercial rights contract of 2001 would do.

 

Also, the current Concorde Agreement expires at the end of the 2020 season, when presumably the WADA ban will still have another 3 years to run. There could be specific provision in the next Concorde Agreement to allow in some way for regulatory bans such as WADA's.



#74 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 11 December 2019 - 20:29

With what you describe I could see this heading the way of the 1981 South African Grand Prix. A rogue Grand Prix with no FIA sanction.

Yes, possible, although as I said I find it hard to foresee that Liberty or (at least most of) the teams would choose to defy the WADA sanction unless according to their contracts they had no choice. Also we have to bear in mind that these days sponsors have more influence than ever. Although big oil companies with a lot of Russian exposure might be under pressure to support a race, one doubts that the likes of Mercedes, UPS and BWT would countenance it.



#75 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 1,622 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 11 December 2019 - 20:39

On the face of it, the Russian GP cannot go ahead. The get out, as has been mentioned above, is this clause:

 

"Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four-Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so."

 

What might be "legally impossible"? Possibly if withdrawing would put Liberty or the FIA in breach of contract to another party (perhaps a sponsor, TV companies, or maybe the teams if they cancel but don't replace the event). In other words, anything that would put Liberty or the FIA in the wrong.

 

What might be "practically impossible"? It does say they must reassign the event. It's difficult to see how that could take place for 2020 in the time available. Perhaps they could designate one of the new GPs as a replacement.

 

It probably hinges on the will of Liberty and the FIA. If they don't want to bother, they could probably invoke that clause. If they really do care about supporting WADA, they might not go down that route.

 

(Caveat: my legal expertise is based entirely on having been fined for speeding).



#76 Cirio

Cirio
  • Member

  • 232 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:01

On the face of it, the Russian GP cannot go ahead. The get out, as has been mentioned above, is this clause:

 

"Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four-Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so."

 

What might be "legally impossible"? Possibly if withdrawing would put Liberty or the FIA in breach of contract to another party (perhaps a sponsor, TV companies, or maybe the teams if they cancel but don't replace the event). In other words, anything that would put Liberty or the FIA in the wrong.

 

What might be "practically impossible"? It does say they must reassign the event. It's difficult to see how that could take place for 2020 in the time available. Perhaps they could designate one of the new GPs as a replacement.

 

It probably hinges on the will of Liberty and the FIA. If they don't want to bother, they could probably invoke that clause. If they really do care about supporting WADA, they might not go down that route.

 

(Caveat: my legal expertise is based entirely on having been fined for speeding).

There should be a Force Majeure clause which would allow them to walk away from any contractual obligations.



#77 Cirio

Cirio
  • Member

  • 232 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:04

Clearly the Russian GP should be cancelled, but if Kvyat has cleared any doping regs then he should be allowed to compete but without the flags/anthems stuff.



#78 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:17

Clearly the Russian GP should be cancelled, but if Kvyat has cleared any doping regs then he should be allowed to compete but without the flags/anthems stuff.

Not clear, is it, that Kvyat would even be affected by this, as he does not compete, and has not competed, as a representative of the nation of Russia? I think he would not be classified as a "Russian athlete" (i.e., an athlete competing on behalf of Russia); rather, he is an athlete who AFAIK has never competed on behalf of Russia, he just happens to come from Russia.

I would think that he would be subject to the normal FIA requirements of all Super License holders but nothing more than that. No Russian flags/anthem - agreed, as they are representative of the nation.



#79 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 21,256 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:19

  1. Will it be cancelled? Maybe.
  2. Should it be cancelled? Yes.

:cool:



Advertisement

#80 Cirio

Cirio
  • Member

  • 232 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:23

Off topic but they should reconsider Bahrain too.



#81 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:49

John Malone is a Republican and one would expect him not to ignore, indeed defy, an international sanction against America's long-time adversary.

 

Malone is all about the buck.  He’s not going to allow 25 or 30 mil slip on by.



#82 jonpollak

jonpollak
  • Member

  • 28,878 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:57

.

P.S. Jon, this is not meant to be attacking, although with my poor English it might come accross that way. It is not intended.


Not at all... you’re fine.
And yes...
Je suis American
Jp

#83 jonpollak

jonpollak
  • Member

  • 28,878 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:59

News reports say it’s going ahead.
Jp

#84 Cirio

Cirio
  • Member

  • 232 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 11 December 2019 - 22:05

News reports say it’s going ahead.
Jp

$$$$ rule



#85 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 21,256 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 December 2019 - 23:12

Regardless of what news reports say now, I am not certain it will.

 

:cool:



#86 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 3,680 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 December 2019 - 23:58

Not at all... you’re fine.
And yes...
Je suis American
Jp

 

Americain, peut-etre? Sorry, my keyboard is not set up for the proper accents.  :wave:



#87 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 12 December 2019 - 00:15

Je suis American

But we ran him out of the Colonies and back to the old country...



#88 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,575 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 December 2019 - 01:23

Not clear, is it, that Kvyat would even be affected by this, as he does not compete, and has not competed, as a representative of the nation of Russia? I think he would not be classified as a "Russian athlete" (i.e., an athlete competing on behalf of Russia); rather, he is an athlete who AFAIK has never competed on behalf of Russia, he just happens to come from Russia.
I would think that he would be subject to the normal FIA requirements of all Super License holders but nothing more than that. No Russian flags/anthem - agreed, as they are representative of the nation.


The ban applies to all Russian international athletes, defined as any person who competes in international sport as a representative in anyway of Russia. There is no distinction made in the way you suggest. Kvyat is included as a Russian licence holder, although there’s no reason to think he shouldn’t be able to continue to compete as a clean athlete.

#89 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 12 December 2019 - 02:51

The ban applies to all Russian international athletes, defined as any person who competes in international sport as a representative in anyway of Russia. There is no distinction made in the way you suggest. Kvyat is included as a Russian licence holder, although there’s no reason to think he shouldn’t be able to continue to compete as a clean athlete.

The WADA agreement only applies to signatories of the agreement and only applies to the athlete while they are participating in events hosted by the signatory.   For example the World Boxing Association and the Ultimate Fighting Championship both host world title events in boxing and MMA respectively.  Neither are signatories to WADA .  The WBA is using VARA standards and UFC uses USADA standards.  In those cases Russian athletes are not bound by WADA decrees nor are the respective sanctioning bodies.  Kovalev or Nurmagomedov could fight anyone, anywhere, anytime including if the either sanction hosted an event in Russia.  Just because an event is a world title event or an international event doesn’t mean that WADA is involved.

 

You guys are way off in the weeds on this.  It’s a voluntary agreement that is largely unenforceable outside outside of the Olympics or the Paralympics.  WADA has no enforcement authority other than issuing a decree.  If push comes to shove the FIA could withdraw from the agreement.  Even if they didn’t withdraw and ignored the directive the worst that could happen is for WADA to list the FIA as non compliant.



#90 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 12 December 2019 - 03:44

Malone is all about the buck.  He’s not going to allow 25 or 30 mil slip on by.

Hmmm. I don't know him personally but have been aware of him and his businesses for 30+ years. Obviously he likes money, but not only money, and it could easily be argued that it would do his business interests more harm if they were to ignore the WADA ban and get the bad publicity that would ensue in the States (especially in an election year) than it would do if they were to adopt the same standards as other global organisations, steer clear of proven, serial corruption and leave 25 or 30m on the table.

We also have to keep in mind that, in order to achieve its goal of 25 or whatever races/year, in places such as Miami and maybe NYC, Liberty perforce must get involved in politics and overcome local, often virtue-signalling opposition. Defying UNESCO and the International Olympic Committee by siding with Vladimir Putin is probably not going to help that effort. 



#91 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 12 December 2019 - 03:58

The ban applies to all Russian international athletes, defined as any person who competes in international sport as a representative in anyway of Russia. There is no distinction made in the way you suggest. Kvyat is included as a Russian licence holder, although there’s no reason to think he shouldn’t be able to continue to compete as a clean athlete.

Having been born in a place, being a citizen of it, and even being proud of it are not the same things as representing it. Observers might infer or presume that you represent it, but their personal impressions would not be dispositive

If there is language in the WADA or other regulations stating necessarily that one officially represents the place of which one is a citizen, then I'll accept your argument, but I have not seen such language.

What would WADA do if Kvyat, or another "Russian" driver, had dual citizenship? What country would he be representing?



#92 pitlanepalpatine

pitlanepalpatine
  • Member

  • 1,529 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 12 December 2019 - 04:27

Having been born in a place, being a citizen of it, and even being proud of it are not the same things as representing it. Observers might infer or presume that you represent it, but their personal impressions would not be dispositive

If there is language in the WADA or other regulations stating necessarily that one officially represents the place of which one is a citizen, then I'll accept your argument, but I have not seen such language.

What would WADA do if Kvyat, or another "Russian" driver, had dual citizenship? What country would he be representing?

 

Can someone ask Albon or Rosberg how this works in F1?



#93 Klauzer

Klauzer
  • Member

  • 172 posts
  • Joined: January 18

Posted 12 December 2019 - 06:36

Clearly the Russian GP should be cancelled, but if Kvyat has cleared any doping regs then he should be allowed to compete but without the flags/anthems stuff.

 

I love how people can post this sort of stuff & imagine they're the good guys in this story. Ban Kvyat from displaying his national flag? What the hell?

 

The WADA decision was absurd & disgustingly hypocritical (hello USA athletes etc. + all the other nations whose sportsmen have been serial dopers for decades) & attempting to apply this politically motivated ruling onto an F1 driver/F1 venue is some pretty sick stuff. Some people need to take a long hard look in the mirror. 



#94 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,137 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 12 December 2019 - 07:23

Yes, possible, although as I said I find it hard to foresee that Liberty or (at least most of) the teams would choose to defy the WADA sanction unless according to their contracts they had no choice. Also we have to bear in mind that these days sponsors have more influence than ever. Although big oil companies with a lot of Russian exposure might be under pressure to support a race, one doubts that the likes of Mercedes, UPS and BWT would countenance it.

The point being that if it wasn’t a world championship round, it wouldn’t fall under the WADA ban. But anyway, it’s all just speculation. Imagining if the teams and FOM want to race but the FIA want to enforce the ban. I don’t even know if it would be possible, as the last time this happened FISA and FOCA were very different. Thinking about it, the teams wouldn’t even be allowed to run their current cars outside of championship events like that.

 

On the face of it, the Russian GP cannot go ahead. The get out, as has been mentioned above, is this clause:

 

"Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four-Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so."

 

What might be "legally impossible"? Possibly if withdrawing would put Liberty or the FIA in breach of contract to another party (perhaps a sponsor, TV companies, or maybe the teams if they cancel but don't replace the event). In other words, anything that would put Liberty or the FIA in the wrong.

 

What might be "practically impossible"? It does say they must reassign the event. It's difficult to see how that could take place for 2020 in the time available. Perhaps they could designate one of the new GPs as a replacement.

 

It probably hinges on the will of Liberty and the FIA. If they don't want to bother, they could probably invoke that clause. If they really do care about supporting WADA, they might not go down that route.

 

(Caveat: my legal expertise is based entirely on having been fined for speeding).

It’s been a while since we had a also minute calendar change, but it is possible. If you use the example of 1997, Estoril was cancelled once the season was well underway, and Jerez was substituted in its place. If replacing the Russian GP is necessary, there are suitable circuits out there that could potentially be dropped in with a quick deal. The Nürburgring and Hockenheim would both be up to standard, for example.



#95 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:45

The point being that if it wasn’t a world championship round, it wouldn’t fall under the WADA ban. But anyway, it’s all just speculation. Imagining if the teams and FOM want to race but the FIA want to enforce the ban. I don’t even know if it would be possible, as the last time this happened FISA and FOCA were very different. Thinking about it, the teams wouldn’t even be allowed to run their current cars outside of championship events like that.

 

That is a reasonable point (non-championship round) in a legal sense, but the kind of distinction without a (real) difference that would get lost in the negative soundbite publicity that inevitably would surround such an event. WADA's ban is structured as it is (AIUI) because it was the Russian state that organised and operated the illegal scheme and therefore those activities in which it participates or is represented as a state are covered by the ban. To do in Russia almost exactly the same thing that all along you were going to do in Russia might get past a judge but wouldn't get past the public.



#96 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:49

I love how people can post this sort of stuff & imagine they're the good guys in this story. Ban Kvyat from displaying his national flag? What the hell?

 

The WADA decision was absurd & disgustingly hypocritical (hello USA athletes etc. + all the other nations whose sportsmen have been serial dopers for decades) & attempting to apply this politically motivated ruling onto an F1 driver/F1 venue is some pretty sick stuff. Some people need to take a long hard look in the mirror. 

Have you got any proof whatsoever that "hello USA athletes etc" were beneficiaries of a state-sponsored and then state-covered-up doping program?

The most famous American drug cheat, Lance Armstrong, was actually brought to justice by his own government - slight difference from the Russian situation.



#97 Klauzer

Klauzer
  • Member

  • 172 posts
  • Joined: January 18

Posted 12 December 2019 - 09:10

Have you got any proof whatsoever that "hello USA athletes etc" were beneficiaries of a state-sponsored and then state-covered-up doping program?

The most famous American drug cheat, Lance Armstrong, was actually brought to justice by his own government - slight difference from the Russian situation.

 

Justin Gatlin & a long, long list. Do you really want to gloss over the American & other nationalities' doping offenses since the 1970's & pretend Russia is "state sponsored" whilst the others are just "rogue" individuals doping? It's completely terrifying to see just how easily people swallow propaganda & lies because it has "WADA" printed on the ruling. 



#98 BobbyRicky

BobbyRicky
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 12 December 2019 - 09:20

I love how people can post this sort of stuff & imagine they're the good guys in this story. Ban Kvyat from displaying his national flag? What the hell?

 

The WADA decision was absurd & disgustingly hypocritical (hello USA athletes etc. + all the other nations whose sportsmen have been serial dopers for decades) & attempting to apply this politically motivated ruling onto an F1 driver/F1 venue is some pretty sick stuff. Some people need to take a long hard look in the mirror. 

 

There is a difference between individual athletes being unclean and having a state-sponsored/endorsed doping-program.

 

As for Kyvat and the flag: isnt it so that the flag thats shown next to each driver is based on which country said driver has a racing-license from, and not nationality? I remember Andre Lotterer racing with Japanese colors a few years ago. It might suck for Kyvat if he has to race under another flag, but everyone would still know he is Russian and he gets to keep on racing.



#99 Anja

Anja
  • Member

  • 4,526 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 12 December 2019 - 09:36

As for Kyvat and the flag: isnt it so that the flag thats shown next to each driver is based on which country said driver has a racing-license from, and not nationality? I remember Andre Lotterer racing with Japanese colors a few years ago. It might suck for Kyvat if he has to race under another flag, but everyone would still know he is Russian and he gets to keep on racing.

 

In some other series you can see some weird nationality shenanigans, yes - but F1 has some sort of other, more strict policy when it comes to driver nationality, it's an official world championship after all. Not sure how it works exactly but I think one has to actually have a passport / citizenship / whatever of the country they represent in F1. 



Advertisement

#100 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,137 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 12 December 2019 - 10:20

Yeah I think in F1 you have to race under your nationality. Obviously drivers like Rosberg or Albon have a choice by being dual-nationality, but it's not as simple as getting your licence somewhere and using that flag. It probably has something to do with the Super Licence.

 

I'm not too concerned for Kvyat assuming he's clean. Worst comes to worst he can race under this flag.

 

9ae497ce3ba887c7d1b2e50d8092f905.jpg

 

It's the race that I'm expecting to be a sticking point.